Is Trump Still Proud of Shutting Down the Government?

[Salvador]

Border Patrol doesn't even want a wall, but rather 21st century technology that will enable them to actually perform surveillance on the boarder with a degree of efficiency.

A survey of border patrol agents shows 89 percent of them do in fact favor a border wall.

Border Patrol agents back Trump wall, survey finds

Border Patrol Agent Says His Colleagues Support Barriers And Increased Staffing

Border Patrol Agent Says His Colleagues Support Barriers And Increased Staffing

 

[Mindmaster]

Perhaps, but the Republican's chose that path in the Obama years, and made no effort to hide what they were up to and why. If conservatives were concerned about turnabout, perhaps they should have thought of that earlier.

There is no realistic expectation that the Republicans or Trump will ever be civil to liberals or the Democrats as a matter of choice, so they need to be treated as people that cannot be worked with - like terrorists. You don't reach out to such people. You contain them.

Yeah, it's that whole: "Two wrongs don't make a right." Anyway, you're just playing the blame game here with the Republicans -- either party can immediately decide to take the high road, and they can't blame the other party for the fact that they're acting like idiots. They're both doing it, at a cost to us, and it's stupid either way.

I know, however, that I am expecting too much out of either party in its present state. They're both equally brain-damaged and chasing ghosts while attempting to "get even" with the other party. They're spiteful little pieces of crap, so who cares if they're called Republicans or Democrats. Worse, their retardation has infected the general population as well, and those people think they're fair, right, and sensible. Hint: They're not.

 

[Mindmaster]

A survey of border patrol agents shows 89 percent of them do in fact favor a border wall.

Border Patrol agents back Trump wall, survey finds

Border Patrol Agent Says His Colleagues Support Barriers And Increased Staffing

Border Patrol Agent Says His Colleagues Support Barriers And Increased Staffing

I think it's important to know here that the Border Patrol is just trying to do their damn job. If they ask for 5 billion to do it no one else is more qualified to make that assessment. It'd be like asking the local police if they need cars or ammo to do their job, and then telling them it's too much money. Personally, I think if we're not going to fund it you might as well shut it down...Let the Democratically run areas have their crazy town, and when that implodes point and laugh.

 

[Mindmaster]

He seems to have started on day 1 by inflating the size of his inauguration crowd. He hasn't stopped lying since.

It's like only his opinion man, that's not necessarily a lie.

It's not nearly as fun as the lies on TYT and CNN, which aren't even in that realm just blatant deception.

 

[Salvador]

The Democrats are not opposed to border security. They are opposed to Trump shutting down government, and marrying reopening it to a demand that the Democrats approve funding his wall, which they have a duty to oppose if they feel that it is a bad plan and a misuse of public funds.

.

Five key Senate Democrats have entirely flip-flopped on the issue of a border security barrier system and these Senators have failed to explain why they now are against the same type of border security barrier system that they supported when they voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006.

Five current Democratic U.S. senators, including the party’s top leadership, all voted for the
Secure Fence Act Of 2006, the very law that authorized the same type of border security system that President Trump now wants to extend across the vast stretch of land between the U.S.-Mexico border.

They are:

• Minority Leader Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y.

• Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

• Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore

• Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del.

• Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich.

These 5 Democratic Senators have now withdrawn their support for an effective border security system, merely out of Partisan Party politics in order to oppose Republican President Trump who has vowed to have an effective border security system extended across most of our nation's border with Mexico.

2013: All Senate Dems voted to build border fence, kill visa lottery, end chain migration::

2013: All Senate Dems voted to build border fence, kill visa lottery, end chain migration

 

[Salvador]

What did Trump mean when he said during the December 11 meeting with Pelosi and Schumer at the White House, “I will take the mantle. I will shut it down, I’m not going to blame you for it" Trump reverses, says Dems to blame for shutdown

Emblematic of his perpetual dishonesty, only a couple of days later he was blaming Democrats for the shutdown.

But regardless of who Trump blames, various polls show that Americans blame Trump and the GOP. For instance:

American voters support 63 - 30 percent a Democratic proposal to reopen parts of the government that do not involve border security while negotiating funding for the Wall, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today. Every party, gender, education, age and racial group supports this idea except Republicans, who are opposed 52 - 39 percent.

Voters oppose 63 - 32 percent shutting down the government to force funding for the Wall, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University National Poll finds. Again, Republicans are the only listed group supporting the shutdown, 67 - 24 percent.

The GOP is losing the battle as 56 percent of American voters say President Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress are responsible for the shutdown, while 36 percent say Democrats are responsible.

Voters remain solidly opposed to a wall on the Mexican border, 55 - 43 percent, and reject every argument for the Wall. The 55 - 43 percent opposition compares to 54 - 43 percent opposition in a December 18 survey, just before the partial government shutdown.

American voters are negative in every question about the wall, saying:

• 59 - 40 percent that it is not a good use of taxpayer dollars;
• 55 - 43 percent that the wall would not make the U.S. safer;
• 59 - 40 percent that the wall is not necessary to protect the border;
• 52 percent say the wall is against American values as 41 percent say the wall is consistent with American values.

There is a security crisis along the Mexican border, American voters say 54 - 43 percent, and voters say 68 - 26 percent there is a humanitarian crisis.​

QU Poll Release Detail

Obviously the situation will only continue to deteriorate as long as the government is shutdown. For instance, within a couple of weeks farmers throughout much of the country will need to begin taking out loans through the USDA to plant crops, and also begin to contract to sell their anticipated harvest. But the USDA is closed.

Perhaps we should start wagering on when Trump and the GOP will lead the US and the into utter disintegration -- all over a stupid bigoted border wall?

Five key Senate Democrats have entirely flip-flopped on the issue of a border security barrier system and these Senators have failed to explain why they now are against the same type of border security barrier system that they supported when they voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006.

Five current Democratic U.S. senators, including the party’s top leadership, all voted for the
Secure Fence Act Of 2006, the very law that authorized the same type of border security system that President Trump now wants to extend across the vast stretch of land between the U.S.-Mexico border.

They are:

• Minority Leader Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y.

• Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

• Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore

• Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del.

• Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich.

These 5 Democratic Senators have now withdrawn their support for an effective border security system, merely out of Partisan Party politics in order to oppose Republican President Trump who has vowed to have an effective border security system extended across most of our nation's border with Mexico.

2013: All Senate Dems voted to build border fence, kill visa lottery, end chain migration::

2013: All Senate Dems voted to build border fence, kill visa lottery, end chain migration

 

[Salvador]

See the poll results quoted in the OP. The majority of Americans do not consider Trump's border wall an effective solution to any problem.

What did Trump mean in the December 11 meeting when he said that he will take responsibility for the shutdown, that he will not blame Democrats for it?

How does one negotiate with someone who is so inconstant and unreliable that he literally says one thing one minute and just the opposite the next?

That's apparently what he did with Pence, when he negotiated a compromise with Congress to provide ~$2 billion+ for border security then Trump rejected the deal. This is in addition to the multitude of documented cases of Trump's rapid-fire self-contradictions and contradictions with facts.

Is it rational for Congress to provide a huge amount of money for a project just so an unpopular President can fulfill a campaign promise, a project that most Americans disapprove of and view as ineffective to solve problems?

President Trump offered to help reopen the government, if the Democrats and their leaders Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer would negotiate in good faith for a border security barrier; unfortunately, they told the President they are now adamantly opposed to any funding whatsoever for a border security barrier system which they had previously supported before Donald J. Trump became the POTUS who now has led this effort to get an effective border security barrier built. The Democrats are obviously playing Partisan Politics to embarrass and humiliate the POTUS; this in spite of the fact that border patrol agents and immigration law enforcement agents overwhelming do support an effective border security barrier.

 

[Revoltingest]

All the more reason not to enable further abuse, don't you think?

I agree with that statement on its surface.
But I suspect you mean something different.

Trump challenged the Dems to be his hostages. It is only fair that they refuse.

The Dems aren't being held hostage at all.
They just aren't getting their way.
"Fair" is an odd word to use.
Either side could end this at a lower cost than the cost of agreeing.
The country is losing because neither side will give in.

You tell me. I have not forgotten Merrick Garland... whose nomination was already quite the concession to begin with.

Merrick Garland was another administration.
And his situation shouldn't mean that we must endure a continued
shutdown while Trump & the Democrats fail to approve spending.

 

[Revoltingest]

You know the two magic words, right?

"Co" "operate"
Put those together, & they'll end this.

 

[Mindmaster]

Social Security is automatic so there's no problem. Those who are on food stamps, and rent subsidies are facing serious problems. Federal workers are not among the highest paid at all, like many others live from pay check to pay check. True when the shut down is over their pay will be retroactive. For others money allotted for disasters is held up etc.

I understand, but the mortgage doesn't wait a year while the government hashes it out. Though, most lenders are being EXTREMELY generous right now with this including just accepting a promise to pay as soon as possible, without any penalties. Anyway, if you know anyone in that situation make sure they call up -- they're being cool about it. So, I guess there is that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Except Donald Trump has already assumed full responsibility for the shutdown:

You believe that something Donald Trump says should be taken as gospel?
Nah.
I apply my own judgement.
I see 2 warring sides.
Each wants its way.
Neither has given in, nor looks likely to soon.
Either could end it.
But they both let the country suffer instead.

SOURCE:

Also, the shutdown started while the Republican party still had control of both houses. But, hey, let's ignore facts and "spread" the blame because identifying the actual source of a problem is less important than protecting a lying, racist fascist you accidentally gave the presidential seat to. Because then people might have to start owning up to it.

Your argument here seems more about disliking Republicans, especially Trump.
You want him to give in because you prefer that the Democrats win.
I don't care about the wall & its piddling cost (relative to the damage
politicians are doing), so I've no horse in this race.
They need to resolve it ASAP, it's in the power of both to do so.
They both choose not to.

I'd be fine with Trump getting all he wants, or the Dems getting
exactly what they want, or with something in between. I don't
care if the wall grows or stays the same. I don't care about who
gets the worse political fallout or advantage.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Democrats aren't keeping government closed. That's Trump's and now McConnell's doing.

That's one view.
Another is that if one party has the power to unilaterally end it,
then not ending it is the same as keeping gov closed.

Confusion comes in when someone thinks that one side is right,
& that the other should give in. They think this means the other
is the one solely keeping gov shut. This is erroneous.

The Democrats didn't shut government down, and they don't have the power to reopen it even if they cave to Trump.

I disagree.
Each side need only give the other what it wants,
I'll also wager that there is room for compromise,
but neither side is willing to go there....yet.

That's not what I said. What I said is that there are sound financial and political reasons to resist Trump, and probably personal reasons as well by now for opposing funding Trump's wall. Trump is intensely despised by millions of people.

Political advantage isn't a good enuf reason to cause the damage
that both sides are doing.
And the financial gain of not giving Trump the money is now lost.

I think that that ship has sailed. The Republicans have been deploying a scorched earth approach to the Democrats for decades now.

Does this justify the Dems scorching the country now?

The Republicans should be viewed as enemies, not the loyal opposition.

This is reason to keep government shut?

The Democrats are not continuing the shutdown. That's Trump and the Republicans.

This fails to recognize that they could end it at any time.

And what's wrong with revenge? It's certainly deserved.

Are you admitting that Dems are keeping gov shut as revenge?

Revenge is costly to those who remain unpaid, to national parks
enduring vandalism, & will be costly to taxpayers when government
strains to get back on track.

Perhaps, but the Republican's chose that path in the Obama years, and made no effort to hide what they were up to and why. If conservatives were concerned about turnabout, perhaps they should have thought of that earlier.

This is the Trump administration.
If Democrats want revenge against earlier Republican antics, this is a heinous way to exact it.

There is no realistic expectation that the Republicans or Trump will ever be civil to liberals or the Democrats as a matter of choice, so they need to be treated as people that cannot be worked with - like terrorists. You don't reach out to such people. You contain them.

This all sounds like justification to keep government shut for political advantage
over both Trump & Republicans. It's a really destructive micturating match.

Do you think your above views are representative of the left?

 

[Slabraton]

I'm sure the sky is falling with the fed shut down. Ohh, wait, it's been shut down for awhile... I'm haven't noticed.

I think the only areas that are problematic are social security, welfare, and other things of that nature. The rest, you can probably deal without for a certain period of time.

Anyway, there is a Secure Fence Act, since that was passed it seems reasonable to ask for the funds to be allocated.

I get the impression you don't notice much. Are you aware that this has affected the Coast Guard who's members are working without pay?

 

[Slabraton]

What did Trump mean when he said during the December 11 meeting with Pelosi and Schumer at the White House, “I will take the mantle. I will shut it down, I’m not going to blame you for it" Trump reverses, says Dems to blame for shutdown

Emblematic of his perpetual dishonesty, only a couple of days later he was blaming Democrats for the shutdown.

But regardless of who Trump blames, various polls show that Americans blame Trump and the GOP. For instance:

American voters support 63 - 30 percent a Democratic proposal to reopen parts of the government that do not involve border security while negotiating funding for the Wall, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today. Every party, gender, education, age and racial group supports this idea except Republicans, who are opposed 52 - 39 percent.

Voters oppose 63 - 32 percent shutting down the government to force funding for the Wall, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University National Poll finds. Again, Republicans are the only listed group supporting the shutdown, 67 - 24 percent.

The GOP is losing the battle as 56 percent of American voters say President Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress are responsible for the shutdown, while 36 percent say Democrats are responsible.

Voters remain solidly opposed to a wall on the Mexican border, 55 - 43 percent, and reject every argument for the Wall. The 55 - 43 percent opposition compares to 54 - 43 percent opposition in a December 18 survey, just before the partial government shutdown.

American voters are negative in every question about the wall, saying:

• 59 - 40 percent that it is not a good use of taxpayer dollars;
• 55 - 43 percent that the wall would not make the U.S. safer;
• 59 - 40 percent that the wall is not necessary to protect the border;
• 52 percent say the wall is against American values as 41 percent say the wall is consistent with American values.

There is a security crisis along the Mexican border, American voters say 54 - 43 percent, and voters say 68 - 26 percent there is a humanitarian crisis.​

QU Poll Release Detail

Obviously the situation will only continue to deteriorate as long as the government is shutdown. For instance, within a couple of weeks farmers throughout much of the country will need to begin taking out loans through the USDA to plant crops, and also begin to contract to sell their anticipated harvest. But the USDA is closed.

Perhaps we should start wagering on when Trump and the GOP will lead the US and the into utter disintegration -- all over a stupid bigoted border wall?

First, Trump won the election but he cannot claim a mandate. This is politics, not poker. Yet he has shut down the government three times. Claiming that the Democrats could compromise is disingenuous when they have already done so and the Republicans voted unanimously for the budget bill. It was Trump who changed his mind, causing the chaos.

Mitch McConnell could end this right now by allowing debate and a vote. McConnell and Trump are standing in the way of democracy

 

[Misunderstood]

I understand, but the mortgage doesn't wait a year while the government hashes it out. Though, most lenders are being EXTREMELY generous right now with this including just accepting a promise to pay as soon as possible, without any penalties. Anyway, if you know anyone in that situation make sure they call up -- they're being cool about it. So, I guess there is that.

Yes, Mindmaster. Banks and most large institutions are being very helpful. I think everyone is very grateful about that. Food banks and donations to some Federal offices in some areas is great, so there is a lot of help coming. The two biggest areas workers are having is rent and gas money to get to work, with food sometimes being a problem.

Landlords are sometimes helping, others are not able to help and need to keep an income coming in and others maybe able to help but are being hard nosed about it. As far as fuel to get to work and back home, I do not really know of any help there. With no income in some households available funds to continue on are dwindling.

That is a very good post you made and shows that most employees are getting help from Banks, letting them defer Credit Card payments, waving fees and interest, and even deferring Mortgage payments. I just wanted to add to your post that some costs are not being covered and employees are having to make that up out of pocket.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You had a point, which was quickly lost in hyperbole.

I can go along with a lot of negative statements about Trump -- rich, a bit arrogant, difficult to deal with, etc. But, lie? I've never known him to intentionally do so. At least he admits he's shutting down the government and why he feels it's important to, Schumer just did it because the Dems felt like being dicks that day.

Here's a list of Trump's more obvious lies:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/maryanngeorgantopoulos/president-trump-lie-list

Also, he's now stopped admitting to the shut down and is blaming everyone else, so he lied about taking full responsibility for it. He easily and provably a compulsive liar.

Secondly, that racist nonsense just puts you over the deep end on the bleeding heart left. It's completely unfounded, and nonsensical. Trump was a life long, nearly, Democrat until the last decade. How did he magically become racist now versus then? It's utter rubbish that you think that way, and speaks more of you than him, lol.

Here's a history of Trump's racist behaviour and statements:
https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history

He had to be taken to court to be forced to stop refusing to rent to black families*, and he continues to make racially-charged attacks on Mexicans and refuses to denounce white nationalists.

* Clarification: This was during Trump's father's stewardship of the company in 1973, rather than Trump's, so it is an associative connection with racism rather than a direct instance of it.

 

[Mindmaster]

He had to be taken to court to be forced to stop refusing to rent to black families, and he continues to make racially-charged attacks on Mexicans and refuses to denounce white nationalists.

Except he wasn't, it was his fathers businesses that were and he was standing in court because he was working for the company and his father wasn't in the health condition to be there all day. And, he's denounced white nationalists several times. Mexico and Islam are not races, etc.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Except he wasn't, it was his fathers businesses that were and he was standing in court because he was working for the company and his father wasn't in the health condition to be there all day.

I suppose that's enough plausible deniability - I'll add a note to my earlier post.

And, he's denounced white nationalists several times.

He's also re-tweeted a lot of their talking points and arguments.

Mexico and Islam are not races, etc.

But his prejudice against them is likely based on race.

 

[Mindmaster]

I suppose that's enough plausible deniability - I'll add a note to my earlier post.


He's also re-tweeted a lot of their talking points and arguments.


But his prejudice against them is likely based on race.

Well, there are similarities between "white nationalism" and "nationalism", but their core philosophy comes from completely different places, lol. Discernment is certainly needed in this area. One is racist as hell, the other is a matter of national pride which is a completely different wheel of cheese, because it doesn't care about race, per se.

What race are Muslims and Mexicans? Muslims are nearly any race -- white, brown, black, and maybe even yellow. Hispanics are all a mix of white Europeans and indigenous pre-colonization natives blood, in most cases -- they can look white, brown, or anything in-between. Neither is a race, nor even really representative of one.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well, there are similarities between "white nationalism" and "nationalism", but their core philosophy comes from completely different places, lol. Discernment is certainly needed in this area. One is racist as hell, the other is a matter of national pride which is a completely different wheel of cheese, because it doesn't care about race, per se.

Trump has self-identified in the past as a nationalist, and, while never explicitly a white nationalist, has defended white nationalists and their talking points, and the string of evidence over the last four decades does lead me to believe he is a racist. Not sure if that necessarily qualifies him a white nationalist, though, that's probably another topic for debate.

What race are Muslims and Mexicans?

Mostly middle-eastern and Hispanic.

Muslims are nearly any race -- white, brown, black, and maybe even yellow.

But they are a religion still mostly associated with being middle-eastern, which plays a significant part in their othering and the way people treat not only Muslims but middle-eastern people in general. I have a friend who is still regularly called a terrorist in the street, despite the fact that he and his family are Sikhs. This does happen, and it fuels a lot of the mistrust and hatred towards them as a group, which is part of what makes rhetoric designed to dehumanize these groups so dangerous. It's harder to stir people into a frenzy about groups that look alike to the common voter base (although, that hasn't stopped efforts to demonize "the left" or "the media"), but it's far easier to stir up hatred of a group if the group has clear and easily identifiable signs that they are "different".

Hispanics are all a mix of white Europeans and indigenous pre-colonization natives blood, in most cases -- they can look white, brown, or anything in-between. Neither is a race, nor even really representative of one.

But both are generally distinguished through racial features. To justify any and all rhetoric towards those groups without acknowledging that such rhetoric can (and often does) have racial connotations is missing the whole picture.