Is Violence Against Women Ever Acceptable?

[Vee]

Women in Turkey took to Twitter on Wednesday to blast Turkey’s top religious authority over a series of fatwas, in which the Religious Affairs Directorate (Diyanet) has advised women to accept violence at the hands of their husbands and use discussion to solve their probleTurkey’s top religious body sparks Twitter ire with fatwas on violence against women | Ahvalms.

Violence is NEVER acceptable, against women or anyone else.
Violence is a tool of cowards.

 

[crossfire]

I don't know how it is in your culture, but here, not being able to control your temper is associated with two-year-old children. If you can't control your temper by the time you are four years old, there is probably some sort of psychological problem that is impairing one's ability to emotionally mature.

Unfortunately for you, and kind of for me too, I live in "your culture" and have eyes on my head so.. Nice lies.

Here you go:
Dealing With the Terrible 2s: Tantrums, Screaming, and More

Feel free to plug "The Terrible Two's" into your favorite search engine for more. "The Terrible Two's" is a well-known phrase, and most understand exactly what it refers to.

 

[sun rise]

Qur'an 4:34

I can't say from Islamic view because I could be wrong so this is just my personal understanding of why....

If you're not familiar with Quranic Arabic, you might look at multiple translations and put verses in context.

And there's a clear context about men supporting women financially. That is dying all over the world as women gain the right to work and be paid on an equal footing as men (although there's a LONG way to go for equal pay).

But even subtracting that, the link between Quranic Arabic and English is fraught with problems. Islam: Tafseer Surah 4:34 - Does Islam really allow wife beating ? is a long exposition that starts with Quranic Arabic, shows how it should be translated and includes Hadith about how to understand 4:34.

 

[sun rise]

How do you not see your situation? You accuse random men for having a short temper, are willing to condemn them and deprive them of their basic human rights? Are you the same people who talk about humanity here, compassion and such?

As one that had a short temper and worked to overcome it, I can say that it is the duty of all with short tempers to work to overcome that fault. Someone who offers excuses for his shortcoming has work to do on himself.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Women in Turkey took to Twitter on Wednesday to blast Turkey’s top religious authority over a series of fatwas, in which the Religious Affairs Directorate (Diyanet) has advised women to accept violence at the hands of their husbands and use discussion to solve their probleTurkey’s top religious body sparks Twitter ire with fatwas on violence against women | Ahvalms.

Personally I would not harm any woman. So hitting a woman is not right at all in my view.

 

[Tambourine]

Women in Turkey took to Twitter on Wednesday to blast Turkey’s top religious authority over a series of fatwas, in which the Religious Affairs Directorate (Diyanet) has advised women to accept violence at the hands of their husbands and use discussion to solve their probleTurkey’s top religious body sparks Twitter ire with fatwas on violence against women | Ahvalms.

Fatwas are not actually enforcable by law, if I remember correctly.

It is a troubling development, make no mistake, but it's a far cry from, say, Putin's Russia, which has literally re-legalized spousal abuse.

 

[McBell]

That's what I wanted to say with that. @Piculet is a representative of Islam on this site, one of only a few. His behaviour is indicative because few else speak out.
And I wanted to show an example of how it feels when when he gets hit back.

(It will probably gain me an other warning but that is also part of the demonstration. We all lose.)

Here now at post 167 or so, I am getting the distinct impression that I know more about Islam than He does.
Which is sad because I will go on record flat out saying I do not know much about Islam.

 

[sun rise]

I know, sadly, that most if not all will read the very extensive link I provided about how to interpret 4:34, so here's the essence. That 4:34 only applies to "manifest indecency" first. That the remedies are first to kindly let her know that this is a probem, then to refuse to sleep with her and then only to "tap" in a symbolic way. The emphasis below is mine:

Moreover we should remember that a husband is "only" allowed to resort to this option [ which certainly cannot be called or labeled as physical abuse or wife beating ] in case his wife is guilty of some manifest indecency [ nushuz ]. In dealing with a wife in "nushuz" , a husband should first first try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words, gentle persuasion, and reasoning with her [ reminding her of God and His teachings ]. If this is not helpful, he should sleep apart from her, trying to awaken her agreeable feminine nature so that serenity may be restored and she may respond to him in a harmonious fashion. If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to hit/tap her lightly, avoiding her face and other sensitive areas. This rule is based on Prophet's statement in the Farewell Pilgrimage hadith, which describes the "only" permissible form of discipline in this case as "ghayr mubarrih" which means: "non" violent , brutal or painfull [ see: authentic traditions in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah ]. Therefor it's clear that this light hit/tap, if resorted to at all, is more symbolic by which the husband as a last resort expresses his anger and frustration in the hope to bring back his wife to consiousness; i.e. to make her realize that her marriage is on the edge of divorce [ in order to make her stop her lewd behaviour and/or immoral conduct ]. And finally again we should remember that any form of abuse [ physical and verbal ] is strict forbidden in islam. This is clearly stated by our beloved Prophet Muhammad in the next famous authentic hadith:

The Prophet said: "There shall be no infliction of harm on oneself or others". [26]

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Not a particularly good representative of the religion of peace, he hates gays, hates atheists and now he appears to condone violence.

Well, the majority of Muslims I've encountered say the same things he does. It seems that those views are representative of Islam, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that some day.

 

[Piculet]

How can a woman who is not an adult really understand and be free to decide?

You mean adult as in 18? That's not a number that makes you "truly adult". It's just a number that was invented one time and then, to make things easier, the world kind of agreed on it more or less and now you think it is the truthful age of adulthood.

In different cultures there are events that relate passing from being a child to becoming an adult or coming of age. This often encompasses the passing a series of tests to demonstrate that a person is prepared for adulthood, or reaching a specified age, sometimes in conjunction with demonstrating preparation. Most modern societies determine legal adulthood based on reaching a legally specified age without requiring a demonstration of physical maturity or preparation for adulthood.
Adult - Wikipedia

A child is actually able to say whether they want to marry someone or not. The parents have a great responsibility because they don't just want their child to get married — they want their child to be a good Muslim, to become a proper woman, to know how to be a good wife, a good mother, and then they want to find her a good husband and they must let her have her say in the end. The idea that humans under the age of 18 or 15, are somehow retarted, is arbitrary.

To put it short, a woman who is in your culture regarded as a minor can be able to understand and is, by law, free to decide.

How can an arranged marriage (together with pressure from the family) constitute a free decision?

Where did the pressure come from? What about arranged marriage without pressure? Do you have a poblem with that too because Muslims do it? What about Hindus — is it better if they do it?

There is no reason to think an arranged marriage can't include free choice. Pressure is something that should be dealt on a case by case basis. Some of the reasons being:

• Any non-Muslim can be pressured to marriage anywhere in the world
  
• It is impossible to measure
• Sometimes people feel pressure when it isn't applied
• It certainly isn't permitted to force a woman to accept a proposal, however, a woman may wish to please her parents and there is no rule that says she cannot do so
  
• Essentially it is her responsibility to choose. Sometimes it happens that an individual complains of having been pressured to do something and often the simple answer is, they should have decided for themselves. Sometimes they're just a coward looking for someone to blame
• There is no way to make sure no one is pressured to marry a certain person. The best that can be done is general education of the population and creating a working society. If both are done by Islamic teachings, there is no problem. Because if the parents truly pressure their child to marry someone for no good reason, they are depriving her of her right. That is against Islam. The important thing is that the parents, the child, the families and the potential spouse, all follow Islam.

Child marriage in Turkey - Wikipedia

The thing that bothers me about that article is that Turkey has made 15 the age at which one can get married. As far as I know, there is no such a rule in Islam, but I can see people can apply for a special permit of some sort. Nevertheless, it all sounds eerily Liberal and western.

 

[Heyo]

Here now at post 167 or so, I am getting the distinct impression that I know more about Islam than He does.
Which is sad because I will go on record flat out saying I do not know much about Islam.

I might know even less but my guess (only supported by his use of language) is that he is a wannabe or recent convert. For all we know he could be a poe.

 

[Heyo]

You mean adult as in 18? That's not a number that makes you "truly adult". It's just a number that was invented one time and then, to make things easier, the world kind of agreed on it more or less and now you think it is the truthful age of adulthood.

I thought I made that clear in:

Do we agree that the age for people to agree into a marriage should be the same as adulthood (whatever that may be in a given country)?

as in legally independent. That is 18 in most countries, but it hasn't to be so.

A child is actually able to say whether they want to marry someone or not. The parents have a great responsibility because they don't just want their child to get married — they want their child to be a good Muslim, to become a proper woman, to know how to be a good wife, a good mother, and then they want to find her a good husband and they must let her have her say in the end. The idea that humans under the age of 18 or 15, are somehow retarted, is arbitrary.

The idea that humans can enter into marriage at a certain age but can't vote, get a drivers license or decide where they want to live is even more absurd. At 18 (or arbitrary other age) you can choose to live your life freely. Without that freedom you aren't really free to decide to marry.

To put it short, a woman who is in your culture regarded as a minor can be able to understand and is, by law, free to decide.

Where did the pressure come from? What about arranged marriage without pressure? Do you have a poblem with that too because Muslims do it? What about Hindus — is it better if they do it?

It is a problem everywhere and it remains a personal and cultural problem even as an adult but at least the legal basis should be solid.

There is no reason to think an arranged marriage can't include free choice.

There is no reason to have an arranged marriage before all participants are of an age where they can (legally) free decide.

Btw.: I am wondering if you have an Islamic background. You seem to me a recent convert or not even that. How long have you studied Islam?

 

[ChristineM]

Well, the majority of Muslims I've encountered say the same things he does. It seems that those views are representative of Islam, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that some day.

Some do i am sure, those i know are not like him or i would not associate with them.

 

[Piculet]

The idea that humans can enter into marriage at a certain age but can't vote, get a drivers license or decide where they want to live is even more absur

Arbitrary.

you can choose to live your life freely. Without that freedom you aren't really free to decide to marry.

That doesn't make since. In Islam marrying is the rule, not the exception. A Muslim chooses to live freely by following shaitan. Freedom is not valued in the sense you value it.

There is no reason to have an arranged marriage before all participants are of an age where they can (legally) free decide.

Legally? Usually a marriage is arranged when the child is ready. However, according to some scholars a marriage can be arranged earlier in some cases if there is a necessity.

I am wondering if you have an Islamic background. You seem to me a recent convert or not even that. How long have you studied Islam?

So I've heard. I'm still enthusiastically waiting for someone to point out one thing I've said regarding Islam that is false.

 

[Piculet]

I know, sadly, that most if not all will read the very extensive link I provided about how to interpret 4:34, so here's the essence.

After all this your source says hitting is allowed

 

[Heyo]

Freedom is not valued in the sense you value it.

Your original argument for domestic violence was that the woman had freely entered into the marriage, now you tell me that freedom has no value. You just devalued your own argument.

So I've heard. I'm still enthusiastically waiting for someone to point out one thing I've said regarding Islam that is false.

Thank you for that very informative non answer.

 

[Piculet]

Your original argument for domestic violence was that the woman had freely entered into the marriage, now you tell me that freedom has no value. You just devalued your own argument

My argument for domestic violence? I didn't say freedom has no value and you know it.

And you're welcome. You had it coming, didn't you?

 

[sun rise]

After all this your source says hitting is allowed

The English word "hit" means with force or violence. It's far from the prohibition of harm because to hit someone means to commit a violent act. It can be charged as a crime of violence including domestic violence.

The site I quoted used the word "tap" which to me is much more of the sense of the force involved.

So by continuing to use the word 'hit', you are telling us that in your opinion it is OK to commit spousal violence or that you reject the use of the word "hit" as it's used in American English and substituted your own definition of the word which you demand we accept.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Violence against women is only acceptable in the same circumstances as violence against men. If a religion says otherwise, I consider it to be immoral.

Yeah! If hubby is dippin' his stick where he oughtn't, then Lorena had the right idea -- Bobbit!

 

[columbus]

Violence is NEVER acceptable, against women or anyone else.
Violence is a tool of cowards.

Unless you're religious and God says it's OK.
Then violence is acceptable.
Tom