ISIS creates sex slave jail with Yezidi women

[LuisDantas]

Parenthetically, have any of you read the relevant Wikipedia article? Did you find it lacking? if so, in what way?

I don't expect people who think nothing of regular beheading and ethnic rape to be well represented by a Wikipedia article, for various reasons.

For starters, I would like to know how varied their motivations are and how the emphasis are distributed. Do they see themselves mostly as nationalists seeking independence, or as warriors for Islam? Is ethnical hostility a significant motivator? Do they actively seek to oppress minorities and religious groups, or was that a situation caused by circunstance?

How many of them are just adolescent thugs looking for a thrill and lacking an environment to set them straight? To what extent is being in ISIS a choice for the average member? Is it realistically possible to convince them out of their current ways, and if so how? How much of an effort has been made to both create and communicate alternatives to their apparent future of killing and dying with no real alternatives to speak of? How much resistance do they have against hearing such messages, and for what reasons?

Lacking good evidence otherwise, I think it is fair to assume that any given human group would rather not be remembered as hateful, fanatic butchers. Sure they have shown evidence of dehumanizing their victims in order to justify themselves, but emulating their example is not something I want to pursue.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Quite abit actually. It's important to remember they are people, human beings like the rest of us, and humans tend to be very complicated. And how can we make any serious attempts at ending the blood shed unless we begin to know them, and understand their reasons for the blood shed. Not trying to learn about them will also limit answering deeper questions, such as how can new groups be stopped before they can terrorize the masses.

What insipid drivel. Again, what information about what they are like do you find lacking?

 

[icehorse]

The two main ideas in Islam:

- The Quran is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God.
- Muhammad was the perfect role model.

I'd say that ISIS is faithfully implementing Islam.

Islam needs to reform, as Christianity needed to, centuries ago. If you think that there is such a thing as moderate Islam, please tell me a Muslim majority country you'd point to as a model of such moderation?

 

[Sees]

Stopping them - besides erasing, replacing, and/or transforming the ideologies that are involved, there is not much other than killing them off, destroying resources and preventing future access to resources....

No matter what the people, with the ability and willingness to actually do something, decide - they will be deemed evil, wrong, imperialistic, etc.

Does anybody see it differently?

People of action and decision are the only ones with opinions that matter here. Ones who can suck up the condemnation in lose-lose/"lesser of evils" situations. The rest will pretend to be more intelligent and morally superior long after it's over.

 

[Flankerl]

That fails the qualifier "with minimal bloodshed".

Thats your problem with the example? So if we ship all non-sunnis away it would be okay?

I don't expect people who think nothing of regular beheading and ethnic rape to be well represented by a Wikipedia article, for various reasons.

For starters, I would like to know how varied their motivations are and how the emphasis are distributed. Do they see themselves mostly as nationalists seeking independence, or as warriors for Islam? Is ethnical hostility a significant motivator? Do they actively seek to oppress minorities and religious groups, or was that a situation caused by circunstance?

How many of them are just adolescent thugs looking for a thrill and lacking an environment to set them straight? To what extent is being in ISIS a choice for the average member? Is it realistically possible to convince them out of their current ways, and if so how? How much of an effort has been made to both create and communicate alternatives to their apparent future of killing and dying with no real alternatives to speak of? How much resistance do they have against hearing such messages, and for what reasons?

Lacking good evidence otherwise, I think it is fair to assume that any given human group would rather not be remembered as hateful, fanatic butchers. Sure they have shown evidence of dehumanizing their victims in order to justify themselves, but emulating their example is not something I want to pursue.

I personally dont have a problem with you. But you live under the rock Hashem created which he could or could not lift if he wanted to.

All your questions have been answered over the past months again and again.

 

[LuisDantas]

The two main ideas in Islam:

- The Quran is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God.
- Muhammad was the perfect role model.

I'd say that ISIS is faithfully implementing Islam.

Maybe it is. Most Muslims seem to disagree, however, even most Sunnis. I suppose they may be conflicted about it and just too embarassed to admit it, or something. But it is certainly premature to simply decree that ISIS is a fair representation of Islamism.

Islam needs to reform, as Christianity needed to, centuries ago. If you think that there is such a thing as moderate Islam, please tell me a Muslim majority country you'd point to as a model of such moderation?

Make no mistake, I oppose Islamic nationalism outright. But that is not the issue here. This is not a matter of simple religious or political controversy. It is a matter of how to deal with quite unacceptable levels of violence that happens to claim political and religious legitimacy.

Maybe the way to go is indeed to speak with the many non-violent Muslims and ask them to give us (and ISIS) grounds for telling the one group from the other. Maybe there isn't enough of a clear, uncontroversial separation, and in that case we will want clarity anyway. What I feel to be certain is that attempting to deal with the motivations of people is far more ethical than attempting to kill them by the thousand.

 

[LuisDantas]

I personally dont have a problem with you. But you live under the rock Hashem created which he could or could not lift if he wanted to.

Excuse me? This looks interesting, but I need clarification.

All your questions have been answered over the past months again and again.

They must have been. But not to me, not in a way that I can use.

 

[Avi1001]

The two main ideas in Islam:

- The Quran is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God.
- Muhammad was the perfect role model.

I'd say that ISIS is faithfully implementing Islam.

Islam needs to reform, as Christianity needed to, centuries ago. If you think that there is such a thing as moderate Islam, please tell me a Muslim majority country you'd point to as a model of such moderation?

Turkey is the most moderate Islamic state..and the best educated...what a coincidence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What insipid drivel. Again, what information about what they are like do you find lacking?

I wasn't aware it was "insipid drivel" to desire that in the future this sort of thing being stopped before it can start. How many opportunities were missed that could have stopped ISIS dead in it's tracks earlier on?
I was also unaware of it being "insipid drivel" to attempt to know your enemy. How can you fight an enemy you know little about? Apparently military spying and intel gathering must also be "insipid drivel."
I was also unaware of it being "insipid drivel" to question if it's anything we are doing. The Middle East is not the only place with people who hate America because of American social, economic, political, and corporate hegemony.

 

[Flankerl]

Excuse me? This looks interesting, but I need clarification.



They must have been. But not to me, not in a way that I can use.

Which part of all the mass executions, crucifications, placing heads on fences in the middle of town..... did you miss?

Its not like they are all over the net and IS actively spreads them.

 

[LuisDantas]

Which part of all the mass executions, crucifications, placing heads on fences in the middle of town..... did you miss?

Its not like they are all over the net and IS actively spreads them.

The one that would allow me to walk on their shoes, apparently.

 

[dawny0826]

I wasn't aware it was "insipid drivel" to desire that in the future this sort of thing being stopped before it can start. How many opportunities were missed that could have stopped ISIS dead in it's tracks earlier on?
I was also unaware of it being "insipid drivel" to attempt to know your enemy. How can you fight an enemy you know little about? Apparently military spying and intel gathering must also be "insipid drivel."
I was also unaware of it being "insipid drivel" to question if it's anything we are doing. The Middle East is not the only place with people who hate America because of American social, economic, political, and corporate hegemony.

Respectfully, he's asked you pointedly several times now - what more do you need to know about this enemy? What's lacking?

 

[dawny0826]

The one that would allow me to walk on their shoes, apparently.

Do you think you're going to be able to relate to people who behead babies and gang rape women? This is how a day in their shoes might translate. Have fun experiencing what it's like to sell women, herding them through the streets like cattle after beheading their husbands.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Stopping them - besides erasing, replacing, and/or transforming the ideologies that are involved, there is not much other than killing them off, destroying resources and preventing future access to resources....

No matter what the people, with the ability and willingness to actually do something, decide - they will be deemed evil, wrong, imperialistic, etc.

Does anybody see it differently?

People of action and decision are the only ones with opinions that matter here. Ones who can suck up the condemnation in lose-lose/"lesser of evils" situations. The rest will pretend to be more intelligent and morally superior long after it's over.

And what exactly did those people of action accomplish after 9/11? What did those people of action accomplish with the invasion of Iraq? A course of action isn't always going in head first with guns blazing. A good strategy will probably have no room for it. Action must include more than just killing or we can only expect more killing to happen.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you think you're going to be able to relate to people who behead babies and gang rape women?

Yes, sure. It is all a matter of having the proper knowledge and circunstances.

This is how a day in their shoes might translate. Have fun experiencing what it's like to sell women, herding them through the streets like cattle after beheading their husbands.

The alternative is to attempt to believe that there is some sort of fundamental, non-circunstantial difference. And that is one of the beliefs that they hold and that are enabling that violence, far as I can tell.

I don't really want to share that belief with them.

 

[Avi1001]

And what exactly did those people of action accomplish after 9/11? What did those people of action accomplish with the invasion of Iraq? A course of action isn't always going in head first with guns blazing. A good strategy will probably have no room for it. Action must include more than just killing or we can only expect more killing to happen.

Exactly....we still have not developed an effective response to 911....what a shame.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't really want to share that belief with them.

They don't offer choice.

 

[Avi1001]

Do you think you're going to be able to relate to people who behead babies and gang rape women? This is how a day in their shoes might translate. Have fun experiencing what it's like to sell women, herding them through the streets like cattle after beheading their husbands.

Yes..the way you relate to these folks.....is to not send in a traditional fighting force !

 

[dawny0826]

Yes..the way you relate to these folks.....is to not send in a traditional fighting force !

What does that look like? How many innocents would suffer or die in the interim?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Respectfully, he's asked you pointedly several times now - what more do you need to know about this enemy? What's lacking?

And I have asked these questions. What are they? Who are they? How many opportunities were missed to stop them?
But here are some more: What motives them as a group? What motivates them as individuals? Why do they take up arms and fight? Why did they one day wake up and decide to fight? What are they fighting for? Who are they fighting for? What would it take to get them to drop their guns and go home? What kind of home do they come from? What is the environment like? Do they have violent histories, or have they been caught up in circumstance?