ISIS creates sex slave jail with Yezidi women

[oldbadger]

I haven't stated otherwise, except that that cannot be the entirety of the goal. If all we do is go in to kill this group, then there will be a next group to go in and kill. Helping the Kurds, Turkish, Egyptians, and others with domestic intel gathering and counter terrorism would be far more effective than going in with guns blazing. Preventing these things before they happen should be the goal.

Ah ha! Excellent! Then do at home as you would do abroad! All those men at your home ground who touch, abuse, imprison and rape women, you'll go further than just kicking their teeth out. You''ll be thinking of helping them with domestic intel, gathering more understanding of (their needs?) and working to reduce the conditions that cause these crimes........ Yes?

I do so love it when I see consistency in folk's judgements.

Me? I would promote justice. And justice in the case of these barbaric international criminals would be quite severe.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Ah ha! Excellent! Then do at home as you would do abroad! All those men at your home ground who touch, abuse, imprison and rape women, you'll go further than just kicking their teeth out. You''ll be thinking of helping them with domestic intel, gathering more understanding of (their needs?) and working to reduce the conditions that cause these crimes........ Yes?

I do so love it when I see consistency in folk's judgements.

Me? I would promote justice. And justice in the case of these barbaric international criminals would be quite severe.

Women in general have a hard time appreciating vengeance except in particular cases. They can do vengeance but its different for them. Men immediately grasp the elegance of a real hell-broth. It was a man who wrote "Vengeance is sweet." We love deadly vengeances, and so that is why its confusing to determine when the right time for vengeance comes if ever. Old as I am I still feel like rowing over there with a shot gun and a row boat right now. I could make it the whole distance across the Atlantic, rowing my little vengeful arms, and my arms would feel painfully good, killingly awesome. I'd yell for the whole 15,000 kilometers. Yaaaarrrrggg! Then when I finally got there my brain would go "Huh? How did I get here?"

 

[LuisDantas]

Remember "No Taxation without Representation"?

It just came to me that much the same principle applies (or should apply, anyway) to selling weapons and deploying military: "No intervention without commitment".

People don't conveniently cease to exist after they are taxed, nor after they have been armed, bombarded or threatened into humiliation and subservience.

To ignore such an obvious fact is to sow one's own future troubles.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Remember "No Taxation without Representation"?

It just came to me that much the same principle applies (or should apply, anyway) to selling weapons and deploying military: "No intervention without commitment".

People don't conveniently cease to exist after they are taxed, nor after they have been armed, bombarded or threatened into humiliation and subservience.

To ignore such an obvious fact is to sow one's own future troubles.

You are overlooking something. You can win a war by subjugating the defeated people instead of empowering them. That is how ISIS works. The reason we are having this problem is that we didn't do the same. We left Iraq and we just let people be. The very people that we let off the hook have become bloodthirsty. The people in Syria that we spoke up for though they hated us? Now they are pirates.

I think what we need here is to rethink our values. Maybe we were being too nice. Maybe the death penalty isn't wrong after all? Maybe we haven't been honest with ourselves about what needs to happen?
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You see these are the questions that are arising in me. It is the reason the USA should leave that region before USA turns into a real Rome. There is a cost for leaving the region, but the cost is worth it. We are going to lose our souls if we keep going over there.

 

[LuisDantas]

You are overlooking something. You can win a war by subjugating the defeated people instead of empowering them. That is how ISIS works. The reason we are having this problem is that we didn't do the same. We left Iraq and we just let people be. The very people that we let off the hook have become bloodthirsty. The people in Syria that we spoke up for though they hated us? Now they are pirates.

I think I failed to make my point clear.

 

[sandandfoam]

I suspect all sides are committing atrocities. That is the nature of war. I read a statistic recently that 15 civilians die in modern warfare for every combatant who dies. War is an obscenity and sexual abuse is only one component of it.
The idea that killing ever more people to make it stop is absurd.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think I failed to make my point clear.

I think you were suggesting that we cannot intervene successfully without committing to a long term support program. I was suggesting that long term support programs are insupportable, because they are costly and people are fickle. It is better for us in the USA, who own the biggest military ever conceived of, to not get further involved. It brings out our dark side. Before you know it, our 'Support' will turn into subjugation and we will give in to the medieval times. We must run fast away from the desire to intervene. We must reassess our own selves and realize we are not morally strong enough to provide intervention for the long time periods required. Only people who live in the region and have an interest in that place can truly make a difference.

 

[LuisDantas]

I suspect all sides are committing atrocities. That is the nature of war. I read a statistic recently that 15 civilians die in modern warfare for every combatant who dies. War is an obscenity and sexual abuse is only one component of it.
The idea that killing ever more people to make it stop is absurd.

To no one's surprise, I fully aggree with you, Stephen. Once again.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think you were suggesting that you cannot intervene successfully without committing to a long term support program.

More exactly, that one should not attempt to, for both administrative and moral reasons. And I don't mean a long term support necessarily, but I do mean a true commitment, one that is supposed to change the interventor to a significant degree just as it is meant to change the intervenee.

I was suggesting that long term support programs are insupportable, because they are costly and people are fickle. It is better for us in the USA, who own the biggest military ever conceived of, to not get further involved. It brings out our dark side. Before you know it, our 'Support' will turn into subjugation and we will give in to the medieval times. We must run fast away from the desire to intervene. We must reassess our own selves and realize we are not morally strong enough to provide intervention for the long time periods required. Only people who live in the region and have an interest in that place can truly make a difference.

That may have been true once. I don't think it can still be the case when national and even continental barriers are so artificial now. There is no less of a legitimate need of intervention than once existed during WW2. We are just far more delusional about our duties, in rather more dangerous ways.

 

[Brickjectivity]

More exactly, that one should not attempt to, for both administrative and moral reasons. And I don't mean a long term support necessarily, but I do mean a true commitment, one that is supposed to change the interventor to a significant degree just as it is meant to change the intervenee.





That may have been true once. I don't think it can still be the case when national and even continental barriers are so artificial now. There is no less of a legitimate need of intervention than once existed during WW2. We are just far more delusional about our duties, in rather more dangerous ways.

WW2 was different. I am not debating you on that. I am predicting disaster if the USA intervenes much and invades, because the USA will be corrupted by the process. Also it will give a false morality to ISIS. To begin with it will be the first full scale war fought using robots. We won't send men any more, and we will become a true 'Big Brother' in the region. After we 'Win' we will have to have cameras and some governors and troops all over, watching people, babysitting. They will live in fear of our robots and police as they go about their daily lives. It will be like Iraq, but worse. Remember, ISIS is the brainchild of a man who wants vengeance for Abu-Graib. This is the plan of ISIS, to use the USA to give extremists a false moral basis and reason to exist. Israel isn't "Bad enough," and they need a very strange and foreign power to justify their continued extremism. If we just leave them be and keep them within their borders their own lack of morals will cause their infrastructure to collapse inward upon itself. Then cooler heads can prevail.

 

[Father Heathen]

I suspect all sides are committing atrocities.

Let's ignore proportions and pretend that we're all peas in a pod.

 

[LuisDantas]

WW2 was different. I am not debating you on that. I am predicting disaster if the USA intervenes much and invades, because the USA will be corrupted by the process.

That ship has already sailed, it seems to me. For over a decade at least.

Also it will give a false morality to ISIS. To begin with it will be the first full scale war fought using robots.

What? No way! Using drones in war against living humans is inherently immoral. It is despicable if it is even being considered.

It would certainly be evidence that the US military are very corrupted, and that they keep giving ISIS what it wants.

We won't send men any more, and we will become a true 'Big Brother' in the region.

Yep. And rest assured, I at least will have no sympathy to spare to the US military anymore. I don't care if they are fighting the ground troops of Nicolae Carpathia. As long as it is robots against living humans, there are no grounds to make such a war legitimate.

Heck, I might very well consider supporting ISIS if it comes to that!

After we 'Win' we will have to have cameras and some governors and troops all over, watching people, babysitting. They will live in fear of our robots and police as they go about their daily lives. It will be like Iraq, but worse.

That is if anything an understatement.

Remember, ISIS is the brainchild of a man who wants vengeance for Abu-Graib. This is the plan of ISIS, to use the USA to give extremists a false moral basis and reason to exist. Israel isn't "Bad enough," and they need a very strange and foreign power to justify their continued extremism. If we just leave them be and keep them within their borders their own lack of morals will cause their infrastructure to collapse inward upon itself. Then cooler heads can prevail.

If the USA decide to send war airplanes and robots with no soldiers, the moral basis and reason to exist will not be "false".

 

[ShivaFan]

... don't worry, ISIS will soon not only be the first modern terrorist Caliphate state, they will also soon be the first modern terrorist state launching drones and robotic devices with all sorts of delivery packages like bubonic plague and explosives into Texas from ISIS operations in Ciudad Juarez Mexico. Then you can turn all moral outrage towards them and be the first to head to the US - Mexican border with a metal army helmet instead of a robot.

 

[LuisDantas]

I honestly have no idea if you are talking in jest, ShivaFan.

 

[Flankerl]

Its a shame that China is so far away and doesnt give a crap. The PLA is the kind of army you need against the IS to show who's boss.

 

[LuisDantas]

More generally, it is a shame that the most moral sides of every conflict aren't always those with military superiority. But that is what we are stuck with.

 

[Flankerl]

More generally, it is a shame that the most moral sides of every conflict aren't always those with military superiority. But that is what we are stuck with.

You know being a pacifist is okay. But you just have to accept that you cant beat someone like IS without military force.

 

[LuisDantas]

You know being a pacifist is okay. But you just have to accept that you cant beat someone like IS without military force.

If you mean sending troops or drones, then it seems to me that such an approach is all but certain to be counterproductive in the long run.

 

[icehorse]

this is mostly making sense to me but...

Luis,

I don't think of "robots" as a black and white concept. Can you explain to me why you think drones have somehow crossed the moral line? I really don't get why a drone is worse than a bomber dropping bombs from 30,000 ft?

 

[LuisDantas]

this is mostly making sense to me but...

Luis,

I don't think of "robots" as a black and white concept. Can you explain to me why you think drones have somehow crossed the moral line? I really don't get why a drone is worse than a bomber dropping bombs from 30,000 ft?

Good point. It probably isn't. But a bomber still needs at least one actual human being to be convinced that it is acceptable to cause that destruction. It still involves making a case for another human, as opposed to simply drowning your opponent out of technological superiority alone.