Islam: Ask your questions

[Godobeyer]

Thats fine, you are of course entitled to view it in whichever way.

I don't think you understood the articles properly though (just saying this so you could give them another look, or a proper look, if you want to).

look brother , we will never agree in this , you follow your scholars , i follow what the Allah said .

what amazing me , that you know arabic , and you deny that the christains and jews are Kofar


شبهة التفريق بين أهل الكتاب والمشركين.

ومن الشبهات التي يوردها أهل هذا الفهم الأعوج، دعواهم بأن الله تعالى فرق بين أهل الكتاب والمشركين، مثل قوله تعالى:
﴿إن الذين كفروا من أهل الكتاب والمشركين﴾ [البينة (1)]
وهي شبهة رد عليها شيخنا العلامة محمد الأمين الشنقيطي رحمه الله، فقال: "فإن قيل الكتابيات لا يدخلن في اسم المشركات بدليل قوله: ﴿إن الذين كفروا من أهل الكتاب والمشركين﴾ وقوله: ﴿ما يود الذين كفروا من أهل الكتاب ولا المشركين﴾ والعطف يقتضي المغايرة؟
فالجواب أن أهل الكتاب داخلون في اسم المشركين كما صرح به تعالى في قوله:
﴿وَقَالَتْ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتْ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُمْ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِئُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمْ اللَّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ (30) اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلاَّ لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهاً وَاحِداً لا إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ (31)﴾ [التوبة] [أضواء البيان (1/91)]
فقد وصفهم الله تعالى كلهم بأنهم مشركون ونزه نفسه عن شركهم به.
قلت: ولا منافاة بين وصف الله تعالى لهم بالشرك وبين كونهم أهل كتاب، فهم مشركون في واقع الأمر، أهل كتاب في الأصل، كما أنه لا منافاة بين تفريق الله تعالى بينهم وبين المشركين من غيرهم في معاشرتنا لهم، من حيث حل طعامهم وحل نسائهم لنا، لأن هذه تتعلق بأحكام الدنيا، التي جعل الله فيها للمنافق الكافر في الدنيا ما للمسلمين، فالمنافقون أهل كتاب، وهم في نفس بكتابهم كافرون في واقع الأمر.
فهذه شبهة أوقعتهم في الخلط بين أحكام الدنيا وأحكام الآخرة.
فقد لا تبلغ دعوة الإسلام بعض الناس من اليهود والنصارى وغيرهم من عباد الأوثان، والذي لا تبلغه دعوة الإسلام لم تقم عليه الحجة، ومع ذلك يحكم عليه في الدنيا بأنه كافر وتطبق عليه أحكام الكفر، ولكنا لا نجرؤ على الحكم عليه في الآخرة.
فإذا مات قبل أن يدخل في الإسلام، فحكمه عند أهل السنة حكم أهل الفترة، الذين قال تعالى عنهم: ﴿وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّى نَبْعَثَ رَسُولاً﴾ [الإسراء (15)]
راجع على سبيل المثال: [تفسير القرآن العظيم لابن كثير (
3/29)]


please check this the link ?(1)
​

 

[illykitty]

Oh how I wish I could read that! Well I'm sure you guys can agree to disagree!

Well I'll continue to hope that, insha'allah, my husband will see the light.

 

[Godobeyer]

if the Jews and Christains are not disbelievers (Kofar ) why then Allah will panish them in the Hell ?

and how we called the disbeliever in Arabic ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Oh how I wish I could read that! Well I'm sure you guys can agree to disagree!

agree to disagree

surely one of us had the wrong context (wrong understanding )

Well I'll continue to hope that, insha'allah, my husband will see the light.

he will see the light by some efforts from you , just show him some videos like that i post in my new thread

 

[Godobeyer]

illykitty ,i translated the parts that i found importants , it's not about your case (mariage ) it's about the calling of People of Book the name of "Kafir" , which mean "disbeliever" in arabic .



Suspicion of differentiate between the People of the Book and the polytheists.
It claim that supplied by these people of this crooked understanding , their claim that God is a difference between People of the Book and the idolaters, such as the verse:

98-6
Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

whom believe that "and " here is make different is wrong , because the People of the Book are the first in the sentence and it's addition NOT distinction

even the jews and christains considerate as polytheists in this ayah by Allah .
9-30

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

 

[Badran]

look brother , we will never agree in this

I know, its hard to agree on anything when you're not even willing to read whats posted to you properly.

you follow your scholars , i follow what the Allah said .

Listen, first don't tell me what i follow, and second don't dare tell me that you follow Allah and that i follow something else, okay?

Either learn how to disagree or don't bother engaging in discussions in the first place.

I quoted you scholars because i assumed that if anything could, this would break your unfortunate habit of always taking shelter behind the fact that you're just mimicking what scholars say and claiming that you speak for god. Apparently and totally unsurprisingly that wasn't enough.

what amazing me , that you know arabic , and you deny that the christains and jews are Kofar

I can understand that you haven't bothered to read the articles i linked you to, as i didn't really have high hopes in this regard.

What i can't understand however is making claims about what i'm saying without even attempting to understand it properly.

 

[Godobeyer]

I know, its hard to agree on anything when you're not even willing to read whats posted to you properly.



Listen, first don't tell me what i follow, and second don't dare tell me that you follow Allah and that i follow something else, okay?

Either learn how to disagree or don't bother engaging in discussions in the first place.

sorry if i hurt your feeling non intentionnal , but i just type what i noticed .

always when i post a verse of Quran or Hadith you take the habit to reply it by a claim by unknow scholar , or personal opinion which definitly their explaination against what Quran and Hadith cleary said "MEANING" !!!

I quoted you scholars because i assumed that if anything could, this would break your unfortunate habit of always taking shelter behind the fact that you're just mimicking what scholars say and claiming that you speak for god. Apparently and totally unsurprisingly that wasn't enough.

yes i mimicking and deny what scholars said when they were against what Allah or Muhammad (pbuh) said or the old scholars said .

honesly i am enough for claims of the unknow scholars and the personel claim which against the Quran and Hadith .
and i don't want to read like these again .

it's just like for me :
Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) said right , the unknow scholars say left !!!
what i suppose to follow ?

i just wonder, because the Quran in arabic and i guess you know arabic ,WE don't suppose to argue with you about this issue in the first place .(as you said )

 

[Godobeyer]

لقد كفر الذين قالوا ان الله هو المسيح ابن مريم قل فمن يملك من الله شيئا ان اراد ان يهلك المسيح ابن مريم وامه ومن في الارض جميعا ولله ملك السماوات والارض وما بينهما يخلق ما يشاء والله على كل شيء قدير ​

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

(2) سورة المائدة - سورة 5 - آية 72​

الميزان في تفسير القرآن تقريب القرآن إلى الأذهان نور الثقلين

لقد كفر الذين قالوا ان الله هو المسيح ابن مريم وقال المسيح يا بني اسرائيل اعبدوا الله ربي وربكم انه من يشرك بالله فقد حرم الله عليه الجنة وماواه النار وما للظالمين من انصار ​

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

(3) سورة المائدة - سورة 5 - آية 73​

الميزان في تفسير القرآن تقريب القرآن إلى الأذهان نور الثقلين

لقد كفر الذين قالوا ان الله ثالث ثلاثة وما من اله الا اله واحد وان لم ينتهوا عما يقولون ليمسن الذين كفروا منهم عذاب اليم ​

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

(1) سورة التوبة - سورة 9 - آية 30​

الميزان في تفسير القرآن

وقالت اليهود عزير ابن الله وقالت النصارى المسيح ابن الله ذلك قولهم بافواههم يضاهؤون قول الذين كفروا من قبل قاتلهم الله انى يؤفكون ​

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

 

[Godobeyer]

this is big contradition i found here , if some muslims considerate the jews and christians are not disbelievers (kofar ), why you preaching them ?

 

[muhammad_isa]

this is big contradition i found here , if some muslims considerate the jews and christians are not disbelievers (kofar ), why you preaching them ?

Hmm..
Disbelievers .. disbelievers in what? In God? Surely not..

Disbelievers in Islam .. of course!
We can always find some verses in the Qur'an to substantiate our viewpoint.
Allah the exalted, doesn't expect everybody to become a Muslim in a few minutes .. these things take time
Naturally, some people veer towrds evil, and their hearts will never accept the truth, whereas others maybe weak.

The victory at Macca is a good example. The Qur'aysh embraced Islam in large numbers.

 

[Godobeyer]

Hmm..
Disbelievers .. disbelievers in what? In God? Surely not..

Disbelievers in Islam .. of course!
We can always find some verses in the Qur'an to substantiate our viewpoint.
Allah the exalted, doesn't expect everybody to become a Muslim in a few minutes .. these things take time
Naturally, some people veer towrds evil, and their hearts will never accept the truth, whereas others maybe weak.

The victory at Macca is a good example. The Qur'aysh embraced Islam in large numbers.

indeed they disbelieve in Quran and Muhammad (pbuh) and Islam in general

maybe considerate disbelievers in Allah too, check the important verses that i post them #315

 

[illykitty]

he will see the light by some efforts from you , just show him some videos like that i post in my new thread

Well I've decided to look into Sikhism, since it believes in one god only too and it's close to my beliefs and I don't think the husband needs to be Sikh. But that doesn't mean I rule out Islam. Look out for me asking questions again someday!

Cause I probably will... Ever changing mind! But thank you very much for answering honestly and telling things up front! I really appreciate.

 

[Godobeyer]

Well I've decided to look into Sikhism, since it believes in one god only too and it's close to my beliefs and I don't think the husband needs to be Sikh. But that doesn't mean I rule out Islam. Look out for me asking questions again someday!
Cause I probably will... Ever changing mind! But thank you very much for answering honestly and telling things up front! I really appreciate.

Ah, maybe cos Sikh allowed you to marry non muslim ?
study as you like sister , i am sure you will back .

maybe it's my bad to be honest , i don't know how make up issues

 

[Badran]

sorry if i hurt your feeling non intentionnal , but i just type what i noticed .

Thanks, but its not an issue of hurt feelings as much as it is an issue of me being provoked by your inability to address topics without resorting to what i already explained to you many times.

always when i post a verse of Quran or Hadith you take the habit to reply it by a claim by unknow scholar

Actually, as far as i recall, this is the first time i specifically relied on quoting scholars to address what you said.

That said, just because the scholar in question is unknown to you doesn't make him unknown in general. Dr. Jamal Badawi, the first one i quoted is not by any means an unknown scholar. Look him up before making claims about him.

or personal opinion which definitly their explaination against what Quran and Hadith cleary said "MEANING" !!!

You can keep claiming that the Quran and Hadiths "clearly" say whatever you want them to say, that doesn't change the fact that this is not the case. You're merely sharing your understanding based on certain scholars views or your own personal reasoning, and in either cases, thats not what the Quran and hadiths are "clearly" saying. Its just what it is, your or their view.

yes i mimicking and deny what scholars said when they were against what Allah or Muhammad (pbuh) said or the old scholars said .

Same as above, and old scholars aren't necessarily better than new scholars. Thats your view, not mine. And so, their opinions only have more weight according to you.

honesly i am enough for claims of the unknow scholars and the personel claim which against the Quran and Hadith .
and i don't want to read like these again .

And i've had enough of your dishonest tactics in claiming that you speak on behalf of Allah and Muhammad and dismissing differing views as 'unkown scholar' and 'personal claim'.

If this is the only way you're able to defend your views in, then like i said, don't bother engaging in discussions in the first place. Feel free to share your opinions, but don't get involved in discussions or debates if you don't know how to handle yourself in them.

it's just like for me :
Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) said right , the unknow scholars say left !!!
what i suppose to follow ?

Thats not actually the situation. The situation is Godobeyer's preferred scholars, or older scholars, or the majority of scholars in some cases say one thing while other scholars say another.

Feel free to pick which side to take, but don't go around slandering everybody else to be following other things than Allah or make silly claims such you speaking on behalf of god or Muhammad.

i just wonder, because the Quran in arabic and i guess you know arabic ,WE don't suppose to argue with you about this issue in the first place .(as you said )

I have no idea what you're saying here.

Just for the sake of others reading though, to clarify what i was attempting to convey with the articles posted. Basically, there are different levels of 'kufr', or different levels of a person being a 'kafir'. A Muslim rejecting one single teaching of god is kufr. Being ungrateful to god is an instance of kufr.

However, there's a key element to this, which is intention. Christians for example, generally, can not be labeled disbelievers or kafirs in the sense of intentionally or knowingly rejecting the truth, because we don't know that. However, you can call them kafirs, just like other Muslims who don't accept certain teachings would be, if you want, in that sense.

But that doesn't mean that they're kafirs in the sense of some people in the Quraysh for example, people who refused the prophet and the new message for personal gains and so forth. A distinguishment must be made in this regard. Either by not calling them kafirs, or by calling them kafirs but not the same kind of kafirs that we usually refer to, such as Quraysh.

Or, as the articles said, refraining from judging anybody as such, and rather sticking to judging certain acts as instances of kufr. And, clarifying what kind of kufr are we talking about.

In a nutshell, what i'm saying is that i find judging any collective group of people as 'kafirs' generally, to be thoughtless and ill-advised. Unless one means it in the sense which applies to pretty much all of us, Muslims included, which i'm almost sure is not the case, or the sense that is commonly used. Especially putting in mind also what the articles highlighted about the situation today.

 

[Godobeyer]

brother you always shock me by your long replies

accuatly and i swear that i had no tactics , i am just say what i understand from God

it's seems we will not agree about some issues , because it's seems you prefere the new scholars and i prefer the old scholars .

I have no idea what you're saying here.

قلت لك انت من المفروض مصري "عربي " تعرف نطق الكلامات

يكفرون اصلها من كلمة كفر .... و الاسم طبعا " كافر " الله قال للنصارى و اليهود لماذا تكفرون؟ .... اي انهم كفار

 

[beenie]

Well I've decided to look into Sikhism, since it believes in one god only too and it's close to my beliefs and I don't think the husband needs to be Sikh. But that doesn't mean I rule out Islam. Look out for me asking questions again someday!

Cause I probably will... Ever changing mind! But thank you very much for answering honestly and telling things up front! I really appreciate.

Wow, am I the only one who thinks this is so sad? Here we have someone who was strongly considering choosing our faith, and she's turning to Sikhism because our religion has been demonstrated to be too rigid?

This is one sad state of affairs, and all we can talk about is "who we can call kaafirs". No wonder our ummah is in its current, pathetic state.

 

[Godobeyer]

Wow, am I the only one who thinks this is so sad? Here we have someone who was strongly considering choosing our faith, and she's turning to Sikhism because our religion has been demonstrated to be too rigid?

don't be sad , she will back , if God decide that .
i am sure that she just angry about the missunderstanding that happened because the "disbeliever" issue .

is she decide to be disbeliever instead of sinner , that's her busniss ,

i am sad how we reach the a level of "thinking " that the people of the book are not disbelievers !!!

they claim and declare in each occasion that they disbelieve in Muhammad (pbuh) and Quran , and we said that they are not disbelievers :help:

This is one sad state of affairs, and all we can talk about is "who we can call kaafirs". No wonder our ummah is in its current, pathetic state.

i told you before this kind of issue (missunderstanding ) i did not face in anyplace , except here (in this forum) , when we arrive to called the people of the book "believers" ,this is very big problem , and it's realy shame situation .

to understand me more my point, i don't except that some one said that the people of the book are not disbeliever, to discuss about their religion anymore , or told them that they are wrong or why they are disbelieve in Quran or in Muhammad (pbuh)
because he/she said that they are not disbelievers .

and they will make my thread as an argument (reference ) to proof that they are believers

the problem is :
for my opinion some people here posting their claims about MAJOR issues in Islam, without refering FIRST to the understanding of Quran or Hadith ....etc
and someothers knows the truth but they hesiting to declare it .

 

[Badran]

brother you always shock me by your long replies

accuatly and i swear that i had no tactics , i am just say what i understand from God

Me too, thats why its best to avoid each of us claiming that he's the one speaking the truth or on behalf of god.

it's seems we will not agree about some issues , because it's seems you prefere the new scholars and i prefer the old scholars .

Not really, but this is way better than your other representation of my position.

قلت لك انت من المفروض مصري "عربي " تعرف نطق الكلامات

يكفرون اصلها من كلمة كفر .... و الاسم طبعا " كافر " الله قال للنصارى و اليهود لماذا تكفرون؟ .... اي انهم كفار

Tell you what, quote me where i said that they're believers.

Once you're done looking, and realize that not only i didn't say that, but actually specifically answered your question about this with a "no", you may actually start to understand what i'm saying.

Reading the articles might help too.

 

[Godobeyer]

as i understand here we get in missundertand or un-necessiry claims .


this is your first claim :

Thats way too simplistic in my view. Not all Muslims are believers and not all non-Muslims are disbelievers. You don't seem to be putting intention in the equation properly.

your claim is here #293

look brother when you claim that they aren not all non-muslim are disbelievers , that mean evidencely for me :


not all non-muslims are disbelievers = all non-muslims are believers .

in the next reply

when i ask you "about not non-muslims are disbelievers " you said

Thats the part i was trying to explain with the questions about Christians.

here #296

,as i understood you did not think that the Christains are disbelievers , that's my bad


than as i understand in next reply; you said the word "kafar" should not be a labbel for the people of the book

here #298


then i posted the new verses of Quran , which Allah CLEARLY called them (christians and jews) , "that they are INDEED disbelieve " (KAFAR)


now i don't understand your last claim

Once you're done looking, and realize that not only i didn't say that, but actually specifically answered your question about this with a "no", you may actually start to understand what i'm saying.

 

[Badran]

as i understand here we get in missundertand or un-necessiry claims .

Based on this post of yours i'm pretty sure that its a misunderstanding.

this is your first claim :

your claim is here #293

look brother when you claim that they aren not all non-muslim are disbelievers , that mean evidencely for me :


not all non-muslims are disbelievers = all non-muslims are believers .

Its not my fault that you make unjustified logical leaps now, is it?

IOW, of course thats not what i was saying and i can't see how you can possibly get that out of what i said.

in the next reply

when i ask you "about not non-muslims are disbelievers " you said

here #296

,as i understood you did not think that the Christains are disbelievers , that's my bad

Yes, i don't think we should label them generally as kafirs, or disbelievers at least in some sense of the word, as i tried to clarify earlier. Thats not to say that Christians are believers neither, only to say that a collective judgement won't work here.

Unless, like i clarified, if you mean it in the sense of merely lacking one of the needed or required beliefs, in which case fine. But that applies to Muslims too (contrary to your first post which i was quoting).

than as i understand in next reply; you said the word "kafar" should not be a labbel for the people of the book

here #298

Please read the articles or my posts again, to properly understand what i'm saying. If you already have read them properly, then i can tell you right now i can't make it any more clear than i already have.

then i posted the new verses of Quran , which Allah CLEARLY called them (christians and jews) , "that they are INDEED disbelieve " (KAFAR)

I believe what i posted so far should make it clear to you that i'm not saying that the verses doesn't say so, or saying that the word can not apply in any sense. Rather clarifying the complexity of the situation, the usage of the word and the involvement of intentions in the equation.

now i don't understand your last claim

Its not a claim it was an attempt to help you understand my position.