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Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

Do Islamic beliefs about Noah contradict science?


  • Total voters
    21

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Good job in finding that. But when I say that "I still think there is a definite Liberal vs. Conservative side to Baha'is." That I was making it clear that it was my opinion, not the "gospel" truth. Why do other people have to take things so literal and out of context and get their jockey shorts all in a bunch?

It goes back to just not stating 'in my opinion' in front of it. But I think like with all such groups, individual areas will have differing demographics, and the tendency is for people to project what their group is like out to all other groups. Village mentality. In my view, although there are some differences between individual Baha'i, there are far more similarities, They do all share the same faith, after all. In other religions, the religion itself usually has several, if not hundreds of schools.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It goes back to just not stating 'in my opinion' in front of it. But I think like with all such groups, individual areas will have differing demographics, and the tendency is for people to project what their group is like out to all other groups. Village mentality. In my view, although there are some differences between individual Baha'i, there are far more similarities, They do all share the same faith, after all. In other religions, the religion itself usually has several, if not hundreds of schools.
When there were Bahais around here, they certainly spoke and acted as if conservatives. Mostly professional well-off folks. I think they've all gone now.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So, it's not important that the Bible says something that isn't true?

As far as history and science go, the writings were written in the context of the time and the factual content is not important.

That the "ancients" that recorded it believed it was true?

Like much of ancient literature the writers believed they were true within the context of time they were written, and yes, they contain writings of myths,many began as oral stories handed down and are not true.


Then those Bible stories are not from God?

No.

Then the manifestation didn't "bring" a book that had the truth about God?

No where in any ancient scripture did it say that God revealed a book. Books did not exist. The actual archaeological and historical evidence has demonstrated they were compiled, edited, and redacted overtime.

You've said things about it being redacted and edited and did you add embellished? Or, fictional? If yes, then I can agree with you. But, I'm also open to the slight possibility that it is perfectly true. I just doubt it very, very much.

The evidence indicates that ancient scripture contains facts, events, and people set in history, but no I do not consider the 'slight possibility that the Bible nor any other ancient writings are 'perfectly true.' The closest to accurate records form early ancient writings is in many Chinese ancient texts.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
When there were Bahais around here, they certainly spoke and acted as if conservatives. Mostly professional well-off folks. I think they've all gone now.

Just as with Hindu groups, I would imagine the convert versus immigrant factor is large for the overall tone. Certainly in all the pictures the suit and tie is in vogue. Western conservative dress.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I knew them all, actually.
I think it's time to pop you on ignore.
Knowing a few Baha'is is no grounds for anecdotal generalizations from a hostile severely biased source.

I have been a Baha'i for over fifty years and know Baha'is from all over the world. Actually I have meet easily hundreds of Baha'is from different cultures and back grounds. I lived in Costa Rica when I was young and meet my first Baha'is. Lived in China and meet my Chinese wife who is a Baha'i.

Again . . . Knowing a few Baha'is is no grounds for anecdotal generalizations from a hostile severely biased source is not remotely reliable.

So go hide under your ignore blanket.
 
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Ancient cultures composed their writing in terms that everything was true, handed down first orally. The concept of myth was unknown to them,but nonetheless,much of what they wrote was myth set in history. The list of kings was.what they believed, like Biblical geneology, but not necessarily true, and most likely partially created from oral history I would not likely describe it as mythology, but simply created geneology from oral history.

How do you know it was created geneology from oral history?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I have a double major, bachelors level,
biology and geology.

Some basic understanding really affects
how you see things.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Oh? Or are you just repeating what
everyone else says? :D
Yes, positive reinforcement.
When I taught (school counsellor) occasionally I was mediator between students and teachers in 'personality conflicts'. It really reinforced how some 10 year old kids had more wisdom than 60 year old teachers. The 'big boy' would give in. So I remember that when anyone pulls out the age card as justification for 'wisdom'. It may have some merit generally, but in many ways it's folly. One of the neat things about forums like this, because it's words on screen, we often don't know the age (or gender for that matter) of the people we're discussing with, unless it's stated.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Can I have yours as well, then?
Yes, if I'd ever get any. But, since I don't, I like to say I don't really want them. That way when I don't get them, I can pretend it doesn't matter. And when are you going to get to the good part of the dream? Like... what was she wearing? Was she a blonde or brunette? Oh, maybe a redhead?

But really, that whole veiled thing is exactly right on. If God dictated the Bible to dunderheads a veiled message, but he expected the dunderheads to figure out that it was veiled, then he doesn't know dunderheads very well. Of course they would take the veiled message too literal. A flood? Of course that really means if we don't follow God's law we will drown in our own ocean of delusion. Jesus rising from the dead? Of course that means that his body is dead, but he lives on in our hearts. But dunderheaded people took as the literal truth. But, now what, Baha'u'llah has given a message... how will dunderheads mess it up? Hmmm? Dunderheads passing and enforcing religious legislation? What could possibly go wrong?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Thanks... My two cents have been mostly on the atheist threads lately.
Most of this religion stuff is way over my head. :rolleyes:
You might think so, but your opinions and your Baha'i quotes add a lot to the threads. If you have the time, keep posting. I always like what you have to say.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The variance in beliefs is easily explained by progressive revelation coupled with the way the followers of the older religions have corrupted the original revelations.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

Regarding the flood, Baha'u'llah told us to disregard tales and traditions so I do not think about those things.

“Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63

“Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.”
Gleanings, pp. 174-175
The problem is... How trustworthy is the Bible? For atheists to say that the Bible stories are made up fiction is one thing, but for a new religion to say the stories aren't true is something different. Some Jews, some Christians and some Muslims take their Scriptures very literal, after all, they believe it is the Word of God. The Baha'is say they believe in those Scriptures, but then turn it around to say that things like the Flood never happened. That's the difficulty that some of us have with Baha'is, they can agree and disagree with the Bible and the Quran at the same time.

If a person believes in the Baha'i Faith, then the differences are easily explained. But, for others, especially the believers of those Scriptures, Baha'is are essentially saying the words in those Scriptures are wrong or at least misinterpreted... usually by Baha'is saying the event was not a literal event but a symbolic event.

Now the problem I have with "progressive" revelation. The grade school analogy is perfect... except each teacher left their class to a substitute teacher. Baha'is are saying that the original curriculum was changed by the substitute. So that class was taught to believe the wrong things. The students move on? With false beliefs? Only some move on. Others believe those things they were taught are true and refuse to listen to the new teacher in the new grade.

But then this teacher leaves. This next class is left with a substitute that corrupts the things that were originally taught to the students. And so on. But, in reality, and I've asked this several times to Baha'is, when did Christians ever teach the "true", original message of Jesus? We don't know what that is. He never wrote it down. All we have is what the "substitute" teachers say that he taught. And then they build a story about him dying and rising again. And teach that as true. So that progresses to what? Some of Muhammad's followers think that Jesus wasn't crucified... that it was a body double.

Both Christianity and Islam "progress" into a bunch of different sects. There is no one "truth" that leads from one religion to another. And that goes for Noah and the Flood too. The Baha'is supposedly believe that Noah was not older than 120 years? Then who "corrupted" the story and make him 500 before he even had a son? The Jews have their Bible. The Christians did "progress" and build off of that. They maintained, the false belief, that the Flood was real. Islam builds off of that, and they support the belief in the Flood. Then, if we go back to the grade school analogy, three grades later, the new teacher says that "no" it didn't happen?

That makes the story in the Bible wrong. I'm not sure if you include Noah as a manifestation, but even without him you have Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad and maybe even Buddha that fit into that timeline that let a symbolic story be believed as true. This is not "certain" traditions. This is from the Bible. So let's be very clear... Baha'is believe that parts of the Bible are not authentic and have been changed or are "traditions" of men? If so, then the "textbook" of one of the "grades" in progressive revelation is wrong, has false information and is misleading, as it pretends that something is an historical event that wasn't. There was no Flood and Noah never lived to be 950.

And, as all the Baha'is should know by now, I'm perfectly fine with that. If it's all a make believe myth, that's all right with me. But then don't pretend that it is the "Word of God" too. At best, it would be the words of men about who they think their God is.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The problem is... How trustworthy is the Bible? For atheists to say that the Bible stories are made up fiction is one thing, but for a new religion to say the stories aren't true is something different. Some Jews, some Christians and some Muslims take their Scriptures very literal, after all, they believe it is the Word of God. The Baha'is say they believe in those Scriptures, but then turn it around to say that things like the Flood never happened. That's the difficulty that some of us have with Baha'is, they can agree and disagree with the Bible and the Quran at the same time.

If a person believes in the Baha'i Faith, then the differences are easily explained. But, for others, especially the believers of those Scriptures, Baha'is are essentially saying the words in those Scriptures are wrong or at least misinterpreted... usually by Baha'is saying the event was not a literal event but a symbolic event.

Now the problem I have with "progressive" revelation. The grade school analogy is perfect... except each teacher left their class to a substitute teacher. Baha'is are saying that the original curriculum was changed by the substitute. So that class was taught to believe the wrong things. The students move on? With false beliefs? Only some move on. Others believe those things they were taught are true and refuse to listen to the new teacher in the new grade.

But then this teacher leaves. This next class is left with a substitute that corrupts the things that were originally taught to the students. And so on. But, in reality, and I've asked this several times to Baha'is, when did Christians ever teach the "true", original message of Jesus? We don't know what that is. He never wrote it down. All we have is what the "substitute" teachers say that he taught. And then they build a story about him dying and rising again. And teach that as true. So that progresses to what? Some of Muhammad's followers think that Jesus wasn't crucified... that it was a body double.

Both Christianity and Islam "progress" into a bunch of different sects. There is no one "truth" that leads from one religion to another. And that goes for Noah and the Flood too. The Baha'is supposedly believe that Noah was not older than 120 years? Then who "corrupted" the story and make him 500 before he even had a son? The Jews have their Bible. The Christians did "progress" and build off of that. They maintained, the false belief, that the Flood was real. Islam builds off of that, and they support the belief in the Flood. Then, if we go back to the grade school analogy, three grades later, the new teacher says that "no" it didn't happen?

That makes the story in the Bible wrong. I'm not sure if you include Noah as a manifestation, but even without him you have Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad and maybe even Buddha that fit into that timeline that let a symbolic story be believed as true. This is not "certain" traditions. This is from the Bible. So let's be very clear... Baha'is believe that parts of the Bible are not authentic and have been changed or are "traditions" of men? If so, then the "textbook" of one of the "grades" in progressive revelation is wrong, has false information and is misleading, as it pretends that something is an historical event that wasn't. There was no Flood and Noah never lived to be 950.

And, as all the Baha'is should know by now, I'm perfectly fine with that. If it's all a make believe myth, that's all right with me. But then don't pretend that it is the "Word of God" too. At best, it would be the words of men about who they think their God is.


I thimk everyone agrees that SOME bible stories
are made up, and some are historical accounts,
essentially correct.

Big differences of course, in how many of
which are simply fiction, or what % of the
history is accurately recounted. (See
"Viretnam" for recent history with possible
inaccuracies!)

And, a big difference regarding the stories
that involve the supernatural, verity-wise.

"Progressive revelation" looks like what
others call "dispensations". Workarounds.

One place where I believe the bible is intended
to be taken seriously is the thing about jots
and tittles.

Not that any of this is my deal, I am just standing
by observing.
 
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