Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[james dixon]

I am a geologist with more than fifty years experience, and these references are terrible lies.

Based on your "education" you disbelieve all the evidence that there was a great flood while there are countless articles written by other educated people who believe there was a great flood & they base this on facts.

Having said that, please give me your "evidence" and while you are at it please tell me how these sea shells got on top of Mount Everest?

 

[shunyadragon]

Based on your "education" you disbelieve all the evidence that there was a great flood while there are countless articles written by other educated people who believe there was a great flood & they base this on facts.

Having said that, please give me your "evidence" and while you are at it please tell me how these sea shells got on top of Mount Everest?

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The fossils associated with Mount Everest are inside limestone formations (as your photo indicates) which extend through the mountains,and NOT deposited on the surface by a flood. By the way limestone is deposited in CALM Seas like around the Bahamas, and not remotely associated with floods.

I have not been to Mount Everest,but I have been to and seen the fossils in the same rock formations in Tibet and China.

 

[Trailblazer]

Books are fine, but if it doesn't help you translate that into being a loving human being who actually cares for people, it's of no value. in my view. My atheist father walked away from church at age ten. The pastor gave a lengthy talk on neighbourliness, and then after, on cold rainy day he and his sisters trudged home the 2 miles while several cars with plenty of room in them drove by. He never went back, despite plenty of encouragement from his sisters, who didn't seem to hear the same message. That story affected me. So did the time we went to a Christmas service watching the adulterers in the community pretend to be all holy. I guess they didn't know that we knew.

I did not mean that the way you understood it. I meant that I believe in God based upon a Book (the Writings of Baha'u'llah) but apparently (from what you have said previously) your belief comes from direct experiences. Correct me if I am wrong.

My father was raised in the Anglican Church. I do not know exactly when he walked away, all I know is that he had walked away before his children were born. He died when I was 12 years old and I only later came to find out from my mother that he was an atheist. My mother also dropped out of the Greek Orthodox Church but she retained a belief in God. Later, when she was 60 years old, she became a Baha'i, a few years after my brother and my sister and I became Baha'is.

The community should be of some support in times of need.

I fully agree with that. The Baha'i community has always been there to support its members, so if I reached out for support I could get it from them. However, they are very unobtrusive so they leave me to myself and do not bother me, although they do send me nice cards and Writings from Feasts in the mail.

 

[james dixon]

There is absolutely no evidence for this.

If you dis guard all the evidence that is out there and just rely on your gut feeling then yes, you are maybe right.

Then again, maybe not. -

 

[shunyadragon]

If you dis guard all the evidence that is out there and just rely on your gut feeling then yes, you maybe right.

Then again, maybe not. -

Again, still waiting . . .

Can you provide any evidence of the existence of the Genesis text prior to 700 BCE.

 

[Vinayaka]

I did not mean that the way you understood it. I meant that I believe in God based upon a Book (the Writings of Baha'u'llah) but apparently (from what you have said previously) your belief comes from direct experiences. Correct me if I am wrong.

My father was raised in the Anglican Church. I do not know exactly when he walked away, all I know is that he had walked away before his children were born. He died when I was 12 years old and I only later came to find out from my mother that he was an atheist. My mother also dropped out of the Greek Orthodox Church but she retained a belief in God. Later, when she was 60 years old, she became a Baha'i, a few years after my brother and my sister and I became Baha'is.

I fully agree with that. The Baha'i community has always been there to support its members, so if I reached out for support I could get it from them. However, they are very unobtrusive so they leave me to myself and do not bother me, although they do send me nice cards and Writings from Feasts in the mail.

We live in very different paradigms ... dharmic, versus Abrahamic. Books and prophets, versus direct personal experience. Still, there is a human and humane aspect to both. As Twain said, "East is east, and west is west...." Neither side will ever truly understand the other, and it's rare to even find common ground, there are so many differences, in philosophy. This flood, thing, for example, is totally irrelevant to me. I just say , "Who the heck cares?" and leave it at that. But if others feel it's somehow important to getting aling with your spouse of kids, restraining anger, go ahead, have at it.

 

[shunyadragon]

If you dis guard all the evidence that is out there and just rely on your gut feeling then yes, you maybe right.

Then again, maybe not. -

Not a coherent answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've read glimpses of both. The language was way too flowery, filled with contradictions, and full of self-aggrandizing repetitive conceit. But of course if you bought the into program, it would be just like the glorious brightness of the sun.

It is all a matter of perspective isn't it? I used to think it was too flowery, until I came to understand the content.

I have probably read Gleanings cover to cover at least five times. If one reads for *content* it becomes abundantly clear that there are no contradictions and there is no self-aggrandizement; quite the contrary, unless they believe that Baha'u'llah was lying, which is of course a horse of a completely different color.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is all a matter of perspective isn't it? I used to think it was too flowery, until I came to understand the content.

I have probably read Gleanings cover to cover at least five times. If one reads for *content* it becomes abundantly clear that there are no contradictions and there is no self-aggrandizement; quite the contrary, unless they believe that Baha'u'llah was lying, which is of course a horse of a completely different color.

I have no need to look anywhere besides my faith. I can see, while seeking, how people might read a lot, trying to figure things out. I hit the direct experience for myself at age 14 or so, so there was no need to search. Kind of like falling in love at an early age, and not ever having to play the dating game. The teachings in my Hindu sampradaya, are direct, pragmatic, and in modern American English, and in the case of personal teaching applicable to me only, oral and in person. That's the very meaning of sampradaya. Can you wonder what it would be like to meet directly with Baha'u'llah and have him give you personal advice on your 'stuff'?

 

[james dixon]

Not a coherent answer.

It wasn't meant to be.
You don't believe in the bible; I do
You don't believe there was a great flood, I do

let's leave it at that and move on -

 

[james dixon]

Can you provide any evidence of the existence of the Genesis text prior to 700 BCE.

What difference does it make? It was written before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

 

[Trailblazer]

We live in very different paradigms ... dharmic, versus Abrahamic. Books and prophets, versus direct personal experience. Still, there is a human and humane aspect to both. As Twain said, "East is east, and west is west...." Neither side will ever truly understand the other, and it's rare to even find common ground, there are so many differences, in philosophy.

But even if we cannot find "common ground" we can still appreciate the ground others walk upon. That of course is the Baha'i belief, even if all Baha'is do not practice it. I could prove it but I will certainly spare you the quotes.

I find a lot of common ground with atheists so don't you think I could find common ground with the Eastern religions, or practices as some refer to them? Indeed, there are Buddhist beliefs that I find more appealing and more beneficial to everyday living than Baha'i beliefs. I do not know about Hindu beliefs since I do not know much about them.

This flood, thing, for example, is totally irrelevant to me. I just say , "Who the heck cares?" and leave it at that. But if others feel it's somehow important to getting along with your spouse of kids, restraining anger, go ahead, have at it.

I said exactly the same thing about the flood -- who cares? Why are people even mulling over what might have happened thousands of years ago. Baha'u'llah told us in so many words that it does not matter what happened thousands of years ago, so I do not waste my time thinking about it or discussing it, but I did not need Baha'u'llah to tell me that.

But I won't minimize its importance to Christians since it is important to their religious beliefs.
And it might be interesting to talk about for those such as shunyadragon who was a geologist for 50 years.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, if people want to argue, and that's what makes them tick, go right ahead. Just don't ask me to join in.

 

[CG Didymus]

We live in very different paradigms ... dharmic, versus Abrahamic. Books and prophets, versus direct personal experience. Still, there is a human and humane aspect to both. As Twain said, "East is east, and west is west...." Neither side will ever truly understand the other, and it's rare to even find common ground, there are so many differences, in philosophy. This flood, thing, for example, is totally irrelevant to me. I just say , "Who the heck cares?" and leave it at that. But if others feel it's somehow important to getting aling with your spouse of kids, restraining anger, go ahead, have at it.

And, apparently, we can't trust those Books to mean what they say. Those religions that do put their trust in the Words of their Books are stuck trying to prove things like the Flood really happened. Their best proof is the Holy Book itself. And then, they're stuck trying to prove the things written in their Book are reliable.

But, even if it's true, what does it really prove? That God created man. Man was so evil that God got mad and drowned almost all of them? Sounds like what he created was flawed and defective. But most people still have those defects. And God thought it was a good time to give man the knowledge of nuclear power? It be like a parent giving their anger-prone kid a gun and expecting them not to go kill somebody.

 

[shunyadragon]

What difference does it make? It was written before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

A great deal of difference. There is no evidence of the Hebrew written language before ~1000 BCE. The evidence is that much of the Genesis evolved from more ancient Sumarian cuneiform texts.

 

[shunyadragon]

It wasn't meant to be.
You don't believe in the bible; I do
You don't believe there was a great flood, I do

let's leave it at that and move on -

My problem is not what you believe,but the dishonest way you claim there is scientific evidence for the world flood when there is none. The evidence indicates that the Genesis account evolved from Sumarian cuneiform tablets that described a great flood which was a regional catastrophic flood of the Tigris Euphrates valley likely about 2900 BCE.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no need to look anywhere besides my faith. I can see, while seeking, how people might read a lot, trying to figure things out. I hit the direct experience for myself at age 14 or so, so there was no need to search. Kind of like falling in love at an early age, and not ever having to play the dating game. The teachings in my Hindu sampradaya, are direct, pragmatic, and in modern American English, and in the case of personal teaching applicable to me only, oral and in person. That's the very meaning of sampradaya.

Interesting, I have experienced something similar, yet dissimilar...

I have no need to look for another religion besides the Baha'i Faith. I can understand how people might read a lot, trying to figure things out. I hit the direct experience for myself at age 17, so after that there was no need to search. It was kind of like falling in love at an early age, and never having to play the dating game. The teachings of the Baha'i Faith are applicable to me personally, but they have also been demonstrated to be applicable universally, given Baha'is come from all different races, creeds, colors, religions and cultures.

Can you wonder what it would be like to meet directly with Baha'u'llah and have him give you personal advice on your 'stuff'?

That would have been interesting to say that least, but I believe I will see Baha'u'llah in the next world.

In the meantime, I will have to figure out how to deal with my stuff in this world, with the guidance provided in the Writings and the help of other people. I think God also guides me, although I can never prove that.

I am still curious about other religions because I believe they all contain truth. To paraphrase Abdu'l-Baha, Reality is one and does not admit of multiplicity; it is not divisible. It all rests upon the same foundation. Wherever one finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking and discarding all else. So, my interpretation of that is that truth comes in many shapes and sizes, and whatever truth you have found should not be discarded.

Sampradaya is a Sanskrit term, meaning "tradition" or "religious system." It refers to a spiritual line of masters and their disciples that creates religious stability and integrity. ... It is closely related to the term parampara referring to the lineage of the spiritual masters who carry and pass on the sampradaya.

What is Sampradaya? - Definition from Yogapedia
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So, did you have a spiritual master back when you were 14?

 

[Vinayaka]

So, did you have a spiritual master back when you were 14?

No.

 

[Trailblazer]

No.

Well, so much for the Google search.

 

[Trailblazer]

You're a square peg and don't fit into round holes? You're a fish out of water about other religions? You know enough to be dangerous? You sound perfect for these threads.

Funny you look at it that way... Aw... you are just being nice.