Islam fights free speech

[McBell]

Well the problem for Muslims is the hadiths were written by people who never met Aisha or Muhammad so even the writers relied on the conjecture of others as much as Muslims do today. With that in mind it becomes very difficult to see why one should be more right than the other without falling into arguments from tradition. Indeed, Dr Ibrahim could be right, but the quality of his argument does not rise higher than the ahadith he is disputing so it's impossible to tell. It all relies on 'he said, she said'.

Interesting point.
One wonders if you think same point applies to Aisha being 9?
If not, why not?

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

The way he worded the first two sentences. "Hello, I'm Bill Warner and I'd like to talk to you about my books. Let's start with that most famous of all books; the Quran."

He might want to work on his grammar here or people might think he's claiming he wrote the Quran

Thanks for some helpful info

 

[Flankerl]

Are you happy with the book The Da Vinci Code?

Maybe you read it and tell me why its banned in some countries.

Quite literally where is "The Da Vinci Code" banned?

Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt... wait a second... those aren't Christian countries.

Well let's check out the Christian countries that have banned it.
Samoa and the Solomon Islands.


Wow. The horror. Two Christian countries who together have the astounding population of 720.773 people have banned the film and/or book.

Wowzie!

Also fun fact: Its not banned in the Vatican. :3

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Oh, for goodness sake .. you are talking about 1500 years ago in an isolated desrt oasis. No registry office .. no birth certificates ..did they even celebrate birthdays?

People will use whatever they can to attack Islam .. it's complete and utter nonsense!

Nothing inappropriate happened. May Almighty God punish me with eternal hell if it did!

Aisha's age when Muhammad married her isn't a problem for me because I don't claim Muhammad was an exemplar of morality. Muslims do, however. So it's on them to show why it's acceptable for a man who was in contact with the sole source of moral authority in existence, whose actions & demeanour Muslims should emulate, to have sex with a girl whose body was at best not fully prepared, at worst completely unprepared for the rigours of sex & childbirth.

Interesting point.
One wonders if you think same point applies to Aisha being 9?
If not, why not?

I'll have a think on it and get back to you tomorrow. It's after 1AM and I need to de-grease and get some beauty sleep.

 

[McBell]

Also fun fact: Its not banned in the Vatican. :3

Which is rather damaging to his claim given the Vatican was most outspoken against the book and movie

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I d

Quite literally where is "The Da Vinci Code" banned?

Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt... wait a second... those aren't Christian countries.

Well let's check out the Christian countries that have banned it.
Samoa and the Solomon Islands.


Wow. The horror. Two Christian countries who together have the astounding population of 720.773 people have banned the film and/or book.

Wowzie!

Also fun fact: Its not banned in the Vatican. :3

Like

Quite literally where is "The Da Vinci Code" banned?

Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt... wait a second... those aren't Christian countries.

Well let's check out the Christian countries that have banned it.
Samoa and the Solomon Islands.


Wow. The horror. Two Christian countries who together have the astounding population of 720.773 people have banned the film and/or book.

Wowzie!

Also fun fact: Its not banned in the Vatican. :3[/QUOTE

Quite literally where is "The Da Vinci Code" banned?

Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt... wait a second... those aren't Christian countries.

Well let's check out the Christian countries that have banned it.
Samoa and the Solomon Islands.


Wow. The horror. Two Christian countries who together have the astounding population of 720.773 people have banned the film and/or book.

Wowzie!

Also fun fact: Its not banned in the Vatican. :3

I'd like to read it now lol

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Bill Warner.... such an exquisite last name given the topics he covers - but he is just another hater of Islam -- so we can happily ignore everything he says. (At our own peril.)

I read tons of things I didn't like and were completely baised I consider it sometimes the scribed so I think I got couple that ill look at the writtings of.

 

[icehorse]

The way he worded the first two sentences. "Hello, I'm Bill Warner and I'd like to talk to you about my books. Let's start with that most famous of all books; the Quran."

He might want to work on his grammar here or people might think he's claiming he wrote the Quran

Agreed, Warner's delivery could use some polish. That said, he puts forth a very useful collection of crisp, factual claims. And while lots of people don't like him, I've not heard his claims refuted by a credible assessor.

 

[Parsimony]

My friend the question on the prophets marriage is not in question on this thread.If you go to past threads you will get all your answers answered.

I did ask the question though, so it is now part of the thread.

Its through sheer ignorancy that you call a women a child.

So she wasn't nine years old? How old was she?

Remember what you believe is not always right.

So you are reiterating that she wasn't nine years old then?

My question is why are books banned in many countries?
I have given you names of those books.Please read my postings on this thread and try to answer my simple question.

My answer is that it is because people are too sensitive. If they don't like what's in the books, they don't have to read it. That doesn't mean they should keep everyone else from reading them just because they don't like it.

did the prophet( Mohammed ) marry a 9 year old child?

I know that not every Muslim accepts the nine-years-old thing. A lot of them do, however. I wonder if faroukfarouk is among them.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

The arrogance of West is that they intimitate and force every country to accept their way of life. This is biggest injustice

 

[Notanumber]

The way he worded the first two sentences. "Hello, I'm Bill Warner and I'd like to talk to you about my books. Let's start with that most famous of all books; the Quran."

He might want to work on his grammar here or people might think he's claiming he wrote the Quran

He would have made a better job of it!

 

[Notanumber]

The arrogance of West is that they intimitate and force every country to accept their way of life. This is biggest injustice

You need to replace the word West with the word Islam for that to make sense.

 

[Godobeyer]

I know that not every Muslim accepts the nine-years-old thing. A lot of them do, however. I wonder if faroukfarouk is among them.

I was believe she married at 12 years old.

It's not obligation to believe that Aisha (pbuh) married 9 years old to become a Muslim.

 

[Godobeyer]

And it's things like this that only reinforces the belief that Islam cannot co-exist peacefully with other faiths.

Not true, Islam had the most clear religion that call for existence peacefully with other faiths
of freedom of choice religion and no to obligate religion, there is many verses,I pick this one

https://quran.com/18/29
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.

 

[Godobeyer]

Even if she wasn't nine, and assuming she was married off when she started menstruating, that's still a median age of about 13 or 14 which is still considered childhood - well, by civilised societies it is.

Dr Adnan Ibrahim said she married over 18.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Dr Adnan Ibrahim said she married over 18.

He did but there's no reason to believe that's likely given the cultural & social conditions of the time as well as the fact his arguments ask the listener to rely on unverifiable supposition as much as the ahadith he disputes. It seems to me that Dr Ibrahim is merely attempting to change a facet of the faith that he's merely uncomfortable with. To be fair to him, he's attempting to reform part of Islam and I applaud that. Far too often we see Muslims use Muhammad's marriage to Aisha as a justification for allowing child marriages and keeping the age of sexual consent low (if they even have one) in their own country in the modern age.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The arrogance of West is that they intimitate and force every country to accept their way of life. This is biggest injustice

Don't act as though Muslims are only the victims. Islam only spread as far as it did as fast as it did because Muslims invaded neighbouring regions and forced their beliefs on others. If it weren't for the Franks at Tours in 732, or the various European powers bordering on the belligerent Ottoman Empire at various points in history, Europe would more than likely be ruled at least in part by Muslim powers today. Europe has interfered in Muslim regions for a scant few hundred years - first the Crusades, then since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. Muslims have consistently been invading & interfering with Europeans for nearly a thousand years up until 1918.

Among Muslim complaints of imperialism we never hear complaints of the days when Muslim empires held vast territories and discriminated against religious minorities. So it's apparently only a problem when it happens to Muslims.

 

[Godobeyer]

He did but there's no reason to believe that's likely given the cultural & social conditions of the time as well as the fact his arguments ask the listener to rely on unverifiable supposition as much as the ahadith he disputes. It seems to me that Dr Ibrahim is merely attempting to change a facet of the faith that he's merely uncomfortable with. To be fair to him, he's attempting to reform part of Islam and I applaud that. Far too often we see Muslims use Muhammad's marriage to Aisha as a justification for allowing child marriages and keeping the age of sexual consent low (if they even have one) in their own country in the modern age.

For Dr Adnan Ibrahim , he made his own searches and discover some time lag in the story.

as I understand that small detail got ignored because it's was not big deal for Muslims in that time,nor now for most of Muslims.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Interesting point.
One wonders if you think same point applies to Aisha being 9?
If not, why not?

Just to clarify, are you asking if I think Aisha's age of 9 is as equally unverifiable because it relies on the same level of supposition, therefore should be treated with the same scepticism as Dr Ibrahim's claims?

If so, yes. I think that's the case. The reason I'm arguing as I am is because the age of 9 is an accepted part of Muslim orthodoxy as well as the cultural conditions & views of women prevalent at the time. I don't believe it's true (since I don't believe in the veracity of Muslim scripture at all) but Muslims do.

Does that help?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..So it's on them to show why it's acceptable for a man who was in contact with the sole source of moral authority in existence, whose actions & demeanour Muslims should emulate, to have sex with a girl whose body was at best not fully prepared, at worst completely unprepared for the rigours of sex & childbirth.

Nonsense .. what was the average age of death in this society 1500 years ago? bearing in mind the extreme temperatures and lack of technological development, and all the squabbling between tribes, I would have thought quite young.
If they didn't marry when their women were young, I doubt they would have even survived as small tribes.
The trouble with many people is that they "think in a box", assuming that all their values are 'spot-on' and that they are really smart