Islam, how many more will suffer????

[mr.guy]

I posted some hateful things against my will: the Holy Spirit was directing me to no to go down that path. However, I will not feel guilty, in the future, about stating the truth.

Let's hope the Holy Spirit dosen't direct you to, oh i don't know, eat someone's brain or something.

I am certain that the west would be like the Middle East, today, without Him.(sic. jesus)

That's funny, cause i'm certain the Middle East would be a pretty nice place, today, if christians didn't make so much sport of constatntly decimating their society.

 

[Radar]

Well there are many verses in the Quran that speak against other religions. Surah 5:51 tells Muslims not to take Jew or Christians as friends because if you do then you are surely one of them. So I say if they can't befriend any non believer for fear they may be judged as one of them then they will never trust you and therefore shouldn't be trusted. But of course I am just fanning the flames because I am agnostic and antagonistic.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

Its hard to think well of Muslims after 9/11. And its also hard to think well of Muslims after 'Osama' (a little girl is, at the end, sold to the highest bidder after she tried to help her family). And it hard to think well of Muslims after one of them murdered a filmmaker for making a movie about how bad women are treated in mostly-muslim countries. We should stop taking their crap, and bring them to justice. I'm sick of people dying around the world in the name of Islam. "Freedom isnt free. It cost folks like you and me. ANd if we don't all chip in, we'll never pay that bill."

 

[mr.guy]

How very Jedi like, your itching for war is!

I don't know if you yanks love war 'cause it's good t.v., or cause it's the only time you get a geography leason.

 

[TashaN]

Well there are many verses in the Quran that speak against other religions. Surah 5:51 tells Muslims not to take Jew or Christians as friends because if you do then you are surely one of them. So I say if they can't befriend any non believer for fear they may be judged as one of them then they will never trust you and therefore shouldn't be trusted. But of course I am just fanning the flames because I am agnostic and antagonistic.

Many people who are not familiar with the Quran or did not make a good effort to study it are confused about the issue of befriending people from other religions. Many of them make grave judgment on this matter.

Quran is a complete book that occasionally presents a law or commandment over several chapters or several verses in the same chapter and the practical part of this commandment can be achieved by understanding the whole issue as presented over all the verses and chapters and not by upholding only part of the Quran. God specifically warn us against doing just that, upholding part of the Quran while disregarding the rest.

[2:85] ?. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this?..

To understand the issue of befriending the Jews and Christians , we have to study all the concerned verses together in light of the whole Quran.

I heard many people mention 5:51 with no referral to the rest of the verses that discuss this important issue.

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take [certain] Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

Now, let's look at some other verses about befriending the Jews and the Christians, or anyone not Muslim (Submitter) for that matter. These two verses are regulating relations with any people, regardless of faith;

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

Thus, we learn that we are only enjoined from befriending those who fight us because of religion. Let's go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it now sheds some more light on the issue.

[5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.

Thus, it is clear that this is a situation when there is a division and an overhanging conflict between the believers and the others. Otherwise, what would be the logic behind the statement. "We fear lest we may be defeated."

In these situations those with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.
​

​

i hope this would help you to understand.
​

Peace be upon you
​

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

How very Jedi like, your itching for war is!

no, you misunderstand me. i do not want war, i want those guilty of crimes to be brought to justice. They are giving an undeserved bad rep for Islam. I severeley doubt all of them are like that.

 

[Radar]

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take [certain] Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

Thus, we learn that we are only enjoined from befriending those who fight us because of religion. Let's go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it now sheds some more light on the issue.

Now see in 5:51 it specifically mentions not to befriend jews and christains. The other surahs would be for those that may not be of your faith but are not jews or christains because the quran has already said not to befriend them so these are for everyone else. Unless you are willing to admit contradictions in the quran.

 

[michel]

I am not convinced that people are suffering because of Islam; I believe that some groups are using what they want to use out of the Faith to further their own ends. Unfortunately, I forecast 'civil war' in Iraq six months ago - I am quite convinced that that is what is a the root of all the problems in Iraq. Money, and power.

 

[TashaN]

Now see in 5:51 it specifically mentions not to befriend jews and christains. The other surahs would be for those that may not be of your faith but are not jews or christains because the quran has already said not to befriend them so these are for everyone else. Unless you are willing to admit contradictions in the quran.

* what contradiction ??? what is the meaning of what you just said:

(The other surahs would be for those that may not be of your faith but are not jews or christains ) :biglaugh: how do you know that this surah excluding jews and christians ??

any religion rather than Islam is against my faith including jews and christians .. got it ?

I respect all religions but i just said my opnion and what i have seen so far or discovered. :jam:


Peace

 

[Radar]

* what contradiction ??? what is the meaning of what you just said:

(The other surahs would be for those that may not be of your faith but are not jews or christains ) :biglaugh: how do you know that this surah excluding jews and christians ??

any religion rather than Islam is against my faith including jews and christians .. got it ?

I respect all religions but i just said my opnion and what i have seen so far or discovered. :jam:


Peace

You obvious have trouble reading. It would seem that if you were already told in surah 5 not to befriend the Jew and the Christian that you would not need to say it again. So go to surah 60 why would you then be able to befriend them (Jews and Christians). Do you not see the contradiction there? So surah 60 would have to apply to other religions besides Judaism and Christianity. If not, then your quran contradicts itself. But I understand that you are blinded by faith and will try to rationalise the irrational. All faiths do so I know you can't help yourself.

 

[TashaN]

You obvious have trouble reading. It would seem that if you were already told in surah 5 not to befriend the Jew and the Christian that you would not need to say it again. So go to surah 60 why would you then be able to befriend them (Jews and Christians). Do you not see the contradiction there? So surah 60 would have to apply to other religions besides Judaism and Christianity. If not, then your quran contradicts itself.

* I think i forgot to tell you somthing important about Holy Quran which is that it wasn't sent to prophet Mohamed ( PBUH ) suddnly in one day but in many years and if you go to surah 2 you will find the evidence of what i just said and every surah in Quran has a reason and in which case God said it because Quran is history,scince,faith and knowledge and the source and secret for our life.

So, you can search for specific verses and in which case it have been said.

in Holy Quran surah 6 was said while prophet (PBUH ) in Madinah " now it's a city in Saudi Arabia" there was a specific situation between Muslims, Jews and Christians because they were living with them in the same city then two muslims came to prophet Mohamed (PBUH ) so the first one said that he will not be anymore an ally with his " jew & christians " slaves he had because jews & christians had broke some promises they agree to fulfill with prophet Mohamed so they were about to fight. Then, the other muslim talked to prophet Mohames saying that he can't leave his jews $ christians he had because he was scared from them and that's because when muslims won against non muslims in Mekkah " quraish " in ( Badr Battle ) this man " the second one " said to his jews & christians salves and allies convert to islam before we defeat you like we did in "Badr Battle" with the non muslims arabs then his allies said you can't defeat us as you did to some mature arabs in wars and we have power and weapons to defeat you in case we entered to war with muslims then this muslim "the second guy who came to prophet" was scared from them amd afraid to lose his wealth and power he had with them so he said to prophet Mohammed that he can't leave his allies for that reason i just mention then Allah said to his Messenger Mohames in surah 5 this:

[51] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.


[52] Those in whose hearts is a disease,( the second guy for example and anyone in his position) thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! Perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His Will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.

But I understand that you are blinded by faith and will try to rationalise the irrational. All faiths do so I know you can't help yourself

Actually it's a shame on you to cliam that i'm blinded by faith because faith guide us but not make us blind but the thing which make us blind is being a bighead and thinking that others are wrong 100% and they have no excuse to explain or to share information to discover new things and to make things more clear.

and to I'll give you a free lesson for the disease you have which called :
Psychological projection (or projection bias) which can be defined as unconsciously assuming that others share the same or similar thoughts, beliefs, values, or positions on any given subject. According to the theories of Sigmund Freud, it is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one "projects" one's own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, feelings -- basically parts of oneself -- onto someone else (usually another person, but psychological projection onto animals and inanimate objects also occurs). The principle of projection is well-established in psychology.

An illustration would be an individual (Alice, for example) who feels dislike for another person (let's say Bob), however her unconscious mind will not allow her to become aware of this negative emotion. Instead of admitting to herself that she feels dislike for Bob, she projects her dislike onto Bob, so that her conscious thought is not "I don't like Bob," but "Bob doesn't seem to like me." In this way you can see that projection is related to denial, the only other defense mechanism that is more primative than projection. Alice has denied a part of herself, and in order to deny it she projects that part onto another, namely Bob. Another, and an ironic, example is if Alice were to say, "Bob seems to project his feelings onto me."

That means you are the one who is blind and i'm only sharing and exchanging information with everyone in here freely but you are just trying to criticize me without any reason except that I'm a Muslim.


Peace be upon you

 

[Feathers in Hair]

++MOD POST++

Please, let's try not to make blanket statement about atheism or theism. Let's also remember not to attack one another.

 

[Radar]

Oh The Truth.... I criticize all religions equally because none of them can be proven to me. You really need to stop taking things personal. You should not feel you have to educate me on anything. You being Muslim I would guess that you know that Mohammed did not write the quran but that he had numerous scribes that compiled and wrote the quran after his death. I would guess that you also know that the quran that you read is a translation of the original. Because the original was written in old Arabic which did not include vowling or dotting. And without the vowling and dotting many of the letters and words would look alike or the same. So if the quran that you are reading has vowling or dotting then guess what? It is a translation. If it is in English then who knows what meaning is lost. I would also guess that you know that the quran is not set up in chronological order. It was set up in a way to make it easy to recite and remember.




And I am not bigheaded and think that I am right in the least. It is you that follows some type of faith and let it guide you. Those that need guiding are lost, searching, in need of help or assistance, or blind. I am agnostic so I can say I don't know and I don't care. I am also antagonistic. But let's not forget Mohammed was agnostic when he was visited by Gabriel. But that could have just been a vision due to lack of eating because he was fasting. So you see I know about the stories told by your religion and others. I don't claim any are correct because I don't know and think it is unknowable.

 

[Melody]

How very Jedi like, your itching for war is!

I don't know if you yanks love war 'cause it's good t.v., or cause it's the only time you get a geography leason.

Hmmmm...Ontario...I know of heard of it before. Isn't that a suburb of LA?

 

[Melody]

Its hard to think well of Muslims after 9/11. And its also hard to think well of Muslims after 'Osama' (a little girl is, at the end, sold to the highest bidder after she tried to help her family). And it hard to think well of Muslims after one of them murdered a filmmaker for making a movie about how bad women are treated in mostly-muslim countries.

You're right...it is hard to think well of muslims right now....until you take a step back and realize that the majority of muslims in the world are not being fairly represented by the terrorists (or other examples you gave), anymore than the majority of christians in the world are being represented by George Bush or Pat Robertson.

 

[TashaN]

Oh The Truth.... I criticize all religions equally because none of them can be proven to me.

* If it can't be proven to you so it's not necessary to be fault.

Now all what i will explain for you about the thing you claimed is known widly among muslims and i don't know actually what is the point but i'll try to make it clear for you.

You being Muslim I would guess that you know that Mohammed did not write the quran but that he had numerous scribes that compiled and wrote the quran after his death.

the same goes with the bible too ...

Ofcourse, all surahs ( chapters ) were collected after his death in books but the thing you don't know is that Muhammed (PBUH) was sure that quite most of his companions memorized the surah's well then they just put it in books because the people who did memorized the Quran were going for wars and many were killed so they decided to make it in one book.

I would guess that you also know that the quran that you read is a translation of the original. Because the original was written in old Arabic which did not include vowling or dotting. And without the vowling and dotting many of the letters and words would look alike or the same. So if the quran that you are reading has vowling or dotting then guess what? It is a translation. If it is in English then who knows what meaning is lost. I would also guess that you know that the quran is not set up in chronological order. It was set up in a way to make it easy to recite and remember.

* Ofcourse the Quran wasn't like what it's right now because before they don't need to see the book because they memorize it well and even though they do not memorize so at least every muslim at that time was capable to read the Quran so easily because arabic is thier mother tongue language and it wasn't only Quran which was without vowling and dotting but all thier books at that were the same as the Quran and it wasn't a specific case for Quran. Then, after long time a go after the islamic country became much larger than before and instead of only arabs at that time so in later on islam spread to a larg number of non arabic countries and they can't read arabic well as the original arabic people so they decided to make vowl and dots to make easy for the non arabs people whom enter to islam so they can learn it easily more than before.

by the way, the arabic language itself has no grammer before and they made grammer for it for the same case as Quran and those grammers were invented by a non arabic muslim guy and his name is سيبويه ( i'm not sure about his name in english but you can say maybe " seebawayh " ) so he can teach any unarabic man how to use the language and the Quran too.

It's not a translation dude because simply the letters are the same but they just put vowels and dotting to make it easier for non arabic to read in case they learnt arabic as i explained for you before.

do you really speak english ??? :sarcastic

i thought translation is like for example when you translate from arabic to english and vice versa.

However, nowadays all arabs are speaking in slangs and most of them use the real arabic language in formal issues, when they write books and articles and when they read the Quran too.





Also, i don't know what is the point when you mentioned that Quran wasn't origianlly in chronological order because everybody knows that !!!!

And I am not bigheaded and think that I am right in the least. It is you that follows some type of faith and let it guide you. Those that need guiding are lost, searching, in need of help or assistance, or blind.

* i guess we have a perfect mind here guys .... I GIVE UP

if you think you reached this level of knowledge that you had this mind that no one can guide you and you have no mistakes so i can't argue with someone holy and perfect without a mistake like you but for me i'm a human being and i do make mistakes and i need guidance everyday so it seems that you misunderstood the concept of guidance in religions which is to make things more clear for us and to put more spirit and faith in our hearts but as i can read from your answer that you applied the method of being lost in the road for example or somthing in our normal life as the spiritual guidance in religion.

I am agnostic so I can say I don't know and I don't care. I am also antagonistic. But let's not forget Mohammed was agnostic when he was visited by Gabriel. But that could have just been a vision due to lack of eating because he was fasting. So you see I know about the stories told by your religion and others. I don't claim any are correct because I don't know and think it is unknowable.

Prophet ( PBUH ) wasn't agnostic because Allah had sent him to fulfill what other prophets was doing already like Abraham,Moses and Jesus Christ.

Prophet Mohammed ( PBUH ) said: I just have sent to fulfill the rightnous of ethics.

If you don't know so you can search for the truth if you want so and no one will force you to believe in specific thing but you are the one who decide to be so but this does not give you the right to attack other religions blindly claiming it's wrong but you can ask other of they believe in as you did so with me ( politly ) and they may share information and knowledge with you and as you said ... yes you have quite alot of information about other religions i guess but you have to understand well what is beneath these things and to not judge it through plain personal vision only without referring to some sources to help you to understand like history books and stuff.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Radar]

What ever...... I really don't care.....

 

[croak]

There is no freewill in Islam.

No, seriously, that just popped out at me. No free will.

I urge you to look into the history of Christians in countries in, or near, the Middle East.

Okay, I'll do that. There were plenty of other sites, but let's look at this one:
http://soundvision.com/Info/jesus/MuslimChristianRelations.asp
Let's get down to the Crusades, shall we?

1. The Crusades
During the Crusades (1095 until 1291) European Christians attacked and occupied this Holy land. They oppressed the Muslims, the local Christians and the Jews. These Crusaders killed over 200,000 innocent civilians.

The aim: to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. This was not only a period of bloodshed, hostility and violence. It was also the beginning of collective Western stereotypes of Islam and Muslims, according to some scholars.

The Crusades ended centuries ago. But today, the remnants of those stereotypes have taken on new meaning. Muslims are still bloodthirsty, violent savages by most of the mainstream media's standard. The propagation of these views on the collective level through the media has affected Muslims globally and locally. Muslims in America, while living peacefully with Christians and other religious groups, are still subject to discrimination in varying degrees, and physical violence and harassment in the worst cases.

While the Crusades were bad news for Muslims and even local Christians living alongside them, one significant outcome of this contact between Muslims and Western Christians was the passage of knowledge from one to the other.

Christians, through the Muslims, were able to access texts like those of Aristotle, for instance. The Muslims clearly passed on an intellectual heritage, which a number of scholars say laid the foundations for the modern Christian West. For more discussion of this, please see the book " Islam and the Discovery of Freedom by Rose Wilder Lane.

There is much more on the oppression of Muslims there. Now, I happen to research about Islam all the time, from both viewpoints. I'm convinced that Islam is true.

Look at most countries which are Islamic? Look around you and wake up before your next, and you country.

You mean like Saudi Arabia? You think those countries are ruling by Islamic Law? Only partially, I'm afraid. They've tampered with it. And the Wahabbi Muslim sect is where most of the fundamentalists are coming from, and are the current rulers of Saudi Arabia. So the example of Islam today is not the proper example.

Sorry if I'm being to general or something. I'm simply tired, it being nearly 11 PM my time. And give me time: it's my first day back. Though I will debate under one condition: that you provide proof of your claims. No, Al-Qaeda isn't proof. It follows a twisted image of Islam. And don't drag in dictators like Saddam either. No, I want proof, straight from the Qur'an and Hadith, which support them, as the Qur'an and Hadith are the very foundations of Islam. Not the Imams of Iran, the dictators of Iraq, or the regimes in Syria.

 

[Fatmop]

As for the crusades, it's true that there was quite a bit of oppression on the parts of European Christians. However, it was not completely unprovoked: Islam had been taking root in Spain and armies had been pushing through Magyar territory for years; neither side can sit there and righteously claim, "Well, they started it."

 

[Fatmop]

Now, I happen to research about Islam all the time, from both viewpoints. I'm convinced that Islam is true.

What does that mean? You have taken a look at criticism of the Quran, perhaps?
Have you also looked at, say, Christian apologists' justifications of the Bible, or atheists' criticisms of the idea of a deity?