Islam, how much do you really know about it?

[pharon85]

Lava do you actually believe this? ,this is another thing about Islam that mystifies me.

if we believe that god can create a full human
won't we accept god change some ones face
any plastic surgery can do it,won't god be able to do it ?

 

[challupa]

talban did that because of their way of thinking
in islam bad songs are forbidden
and they are not sure will that song will be good or bad
so they prevented all kind of songs

Oh... That seems a bit controlling and harsh! Is that mindset held by many muslims, or is it limited to the Taliban?

 

[.lava]

Do you have any idea why the Taliban didn't allow music? That seems pretty harsh to me as a westerner. I can't imagine life without music so this was something I could not understand when I heard about it.

God did not give permission to anyone to decide for others. that's why each person has his own free will. i can not say i know or understand Taleban. i hear some things about them and in general, things they do seems contradicting with commands of Allah. in case, what i heard was true, of course.

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[YmirGF]

where did you get this information about him?

.

As indicated, the link to Wikipedia is in the name Harun Yahya. Though held in high regard by some Muslim "thinkers" he is not given any credibility outside of those circles.

Adnan Oktar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Richard Dawkins, the Creationist's "Dr. Evil", has a rather amusing piece about him as well here
-=> [UPDATED] Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya' by Richard Dawkins - RichardDawkins.net

 

[Alla Prima]

God did not give permission to anyone to decide for others. that's why each person has his own free will. i can not say i know or understand Taleban. i hear some things about them and in general, things they do seems contradicting with commands of Allah. in case, what i heard was true, of course.

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If this is so then why are there so many threats against free will in the teachings of Islam. It would seem to me that Islam does not want free will.

 

[YmirGF]

ok may be we need to talk more about our religion because

Oh good grief.

yes true because there are new moslems every day

Only because of high birth rates. It certainly is not because of massive conversions, sorry, 'reversions' to Islam.

haha
so you think i didn't know about my religion and then here i learned from you

Hardly, child. I am unsure how you could arrive at that conclusion from what I said.

i know enough and what i mean is that when i come here to that discussion i found myself had to go in depth more in small details
and what i discovered helped me to see a bigger view for islam

Bravo. I'd recommend that you keep up the research. Learning is usually a good thing.

 

[YmirGF]

If this is so then why are there so many threats against free will in the teachings of Islam. It would seem to me that Islam does not want free will.

One could say that so-called "free will" goes out the window when one "submits" to the "will o' God".

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." does come to mind.

 

[Alla Prima]

One could say that so-called "free will" goes out the window when one "submits" to the "will o' God".

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." does come to mind.

The very meaning of Islam. But I'm trying to be as open minded as possible.

 

[pharon85]

The Koran shows no respect for other religions or non Muslims. 'Nonbelievers' and 'idolators' are to be killed, shunned and considered dirty.

I give you three translations:
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the translation is not enough you must understand the story and the meaning

[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.[/FONT].

here you think it mean islam is accepted and no thing else
wrong
Islam mean submission and that is what is written in the translation
so any religion that it is message is submitted to god is accepted
for example Adam father of humanity he is a prophet and he was submitted to god
and learned his children that also every other prophet
we believe in all prophets so the people who belief on what they came with are accepted

[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.[/FONT].

you think hear it mean moslems don't communicate with non moslems
wrong
read it again this it is order not to communicate with others who (and that is important)proofed that they are enemies
so the problem here that they are enemies not they are non moslems

[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.[/FONT].

the word friends is not so correct here
this mean verses mean don't be Allie with people not from your religion to fight moslems

[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI: In most of their secret talks there is no good: But if one exhorts to a deed of charity or justice or conciliation between men, (Secrecy is permissible): To him who does this, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall soon give a reward of the highest (value).
PICKTHAL: There is no good in much of their secret conferences save (in) him who enjoineth almsgiving and kindness and peace-making among the people. Whoso doeth that, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall bestow on him a vast reward.
SHAKIR: There is no good in most of their secret counsels except (in his) who enjoins charity or goodness or reconciliation between people; and whoever does this seeking Allah's pleasure, We will give him a mighty reward.[/FONT]

that proof for me that you don't know what you are talking about and just copy and paste with no understanding
this talking about moslems and they shouldn't just keep talking and they should do good things

[FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

Briefly:[/FONT].

it is the same don't make Allie with non believers against believers

[FONT=&quot] 009.123
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers[/FONT].

what can i see here that the rest of that paragraph is not translated
the first word after that will be who
it mean fight the nearest enemy first
so if you have war with some one start with nearest enemy, not send your troops to some one far then back to fight the near

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]004.089
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah[/FONT]

that verse depends on the one before it
it talk about some people who say that they are belivers but they are not and deal with molems enemy and you must know the story
quran words depends om each other so here when you cut the meaning totaly change

i will contnue tommorow

 

[pharon85]

Oh... That seems a bit controlling and harsh! Is that mindset held by many muslims, or is it limited to the Taliban?

some one invented that way and some people followed him
but not mush people

 

[pharon85]

Oh good grief.

Only because of high birth rates. It certainly is not because of massive conversions, sorry, 'reversions' to Islam.

Hardly, child. I am unsure how you could arrive at that conclusion from what I said.


Bravo. I'd recommend that you keep up the research. Learning is usually a good thing.

if you are here just to say things mean nothing with no proofs
that is not the place for that

 

[challupa]

God did not give permission to anyone to decide for others. that's why each person has his own free will. i can not say i know or understand Taleban. i hear some things about them and in general, things they do seems contradicting with commands of Allah. in case, what i heard was true, of course.

.

Thanks lava. I must say I do not understand the Taliban so I guess I'm not alone in that.

 

[challupa]

some one invented that way and some people followed him
but not mush people

I'm glad to hear there are not too many that think that way. Thanks for your answer

 

[pharon85]

I'm glad to hear there are not too many that think that way. Thanks for your answer

you are welcome
also i want you to know that taliban mean students
all of the members of that group were students who did not complete their study then they make their group and control on Afghanistan by force
so they don't have mush knowledge of Islamic religion
and they just accept their opinions
a lot of moslems scientist tried to argue with them but they accept no thing from them

 

[pharon85]

[FONT=&quot]
005.082
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters.
[/FONT]

that is cheating
when you want to talk about some thing get it all or leave it all
here you didn't complete it
here is pickthal translation
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
so i see now what are you doing i can continue but if that is the your way
to cut some words and not completing the line
that won't be a discussion
you cheat to proof that you are right
when you speak about quran get all the verse not pick words and leave others

 

[Alla Prima]

that is cheating
when you want to talk about some thing get it all or leave it all
here you didn't complete it
here is pickthal translation
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
so i see now what are you doing i can continue but if that is the your way
to cut some words and not completing the line
that won't be a discussion
you cheat to proof that you are right
when you speak about quran get all the verse not pick words and leave others

I'm not cheating at all. You missed the point of the verse. This verse denigrates 'Jews and idolaters' not Christians.

005.082

PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

005.086
PICKTHAL: But those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are owners of hell-fire.

The message is very clear. Any who deny the revelations go to Hell. Let me tell you that I am more than happy to deny the revelations. :angel2:

 

[.lava]

I'm not cheating at all. You missed the point of the verse. This verse denigrates 'Jews and idolaters' not Christians.

005.082

PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

005.086
PICKTHAL: But those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are owners of hell-fire.

The message is very clear. Any who deny the revelations go to Hell. Let me tell you that I am more than happy to deny the revelations. :angel2:

i see nothing wrong with that verse. but something is wrong with you. Qur'an describes people in many verses. if some ignorant take this verse alone of course he would act as a wrong doer. just because, as you are doing, he'd be ignoring rest of the book. a Muslim has to follow entire book, not a few verses of it. here are some verses (from your favorite Shakir) about non-Muslims:

2:62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

5:69 Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

3:113 They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him).

as it is obvious, not all Jews are equal, not all Christians are equal. like all group of people, among Jews there are evil-doers but there are also people who are on the right path. so who is who? God did not leave that judgement to us people. therefor God judges, therefor people who play God and punish people are evil-doers. you wanna ignore? go ahead. you're not the first one and sure you won't be the last.


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[Alla Prima]

i see nothing wrong with that verse. but something is wrong with you.

I'm fine thank you.

Qur'an describes people in many verses. if some ignorant take this verse alone of course he would act as a wrong doer. just because, as you are doing, he'd be ignoring rest of the book. a Muslim has to follow entire book, not a few verses of it. here are some verses (from your favorite Shakir) about non-Muslims:

2:62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

5:69 Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

3:113 They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him).

as it is obvious, not all Jews are equal, not all Christians are equal. like all group of people, among Jews there are evil-doers but there are also people who are on the right path. so who is who? God did not leave that judgement to us people. therefor God judges, therefor people who play God and punish people are evil-doers. you wanna ignore? go ahead. you're not the first one and sure you won't be the last.

A thief who does not steal on Tuesdays and Wednesdays is still a thief.

You cannot magically erase an abundance of intolerant verses with a few less intolerant verses (I'm not certain these you posted are all that tolerant). You're trying to have it both ways. If we are to accept the koran as a whole then we are to accept the abundance of hateful, divisive and intolerant Medinan verses as well as the more tolerant Meccan verses.

 

[Alla Prima]

here you think it mean islam is accepted and no thing else wrong
Islam mean submission and that is what is written in the translation
so any religion that it is message is submitted to god is accepted
for example Adam father of humanity he is a prophet and he was submitted to god
and learned his children that also every other prophet
we believe in all prophets so the people who belief on what they came with are accepted

Anyone who does not accept Allah as god has no spiritual good. That is the message.


003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

 

[Alla Prima]

it is the same don't make Allie [ally] with non believers against believers

Yes the Koran is divisive as I have noted.