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Islam rejects meritocracies?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
A theory is distinct from an allegation.

If they want us to exercise our freedom of speech, well that's an ingenious strategy, and we have no choice but to continue to do so.

So what do you recommend our strategy would be if we want to defend and execute free speech, but not play into our provocateurs hands?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Augustus,

You've now typed the phrase "pejorative allegations" several times. I get that that's your opinion. :)

Let me ask you this as a possible way to move this forward: Do you think Europe has a problem (with host-hating Muslim immigrants), that is of sufficient size to warrant a discussion?
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@icehorse It does not matter how commonly the translators are known. It is that if it passes the test of making it a translation that implies the true meaning of God.
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@icehorse Now you are beating around the bush. Anyhow, the humans decide according to the true meaning of what God said.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@icehorse Now you are beating around the bush. Anyhow, the humans decide according to the true meaning of what God said.

I'm not beating around the bush, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. So let me ask you this, what if two people disagree about the true meaning of what God said?
 
A theory is distinct from an allegation.

In my opinion, an poorly justified and pejorative 'theory' is not qualitatively different from an allegation.

What do you think as to when a theory becomes meaningfully distinct from an allegation?

So what do you recommend our strategy would be if we want to defend and execute free speech, but not play into our provocateurs hands?

Don't create an Us V Them situation, don't scapegoat, don't jump to conclusions, don't alienate Muslims who are pretty much 'on your side', choose your words carefully, make sure your arguments have a demonstrated basis in reality, give people options to 'save face', etc.

Pretty much common sense really.

Do you think Europe has a problem (with host-hating Muslim immigrants), that is of sufficient size to warrant a discussion?

Obviously there are problems with extremism, no one is going to disagree with that.

Beyond this it starts to become more complex. There are problems in poor neighbourhoods the world over. There have been major protests, sometimes violent, in America due to police racism. There were significant riots in London perpetrated mainly by white and black non-Muslims. There are many anti-establishment non-Muslims also. How different are the problems in poorer Muslim communities compared to poorer non-Muslim communities? How do they compare to similar situation historically? etc.

Any discussion should be rigorous and evidence based, not an exercise in lobbing around speciously appealing 'theories' that have a high chance of being unfounded.

*Edit: just been looking through a few scholarly articles (Known Europe based jihadis specifically which is only part of the issue I know) some random stats if you are interested (values rounded)

60% ish 1st generation, 40% 2nd, 3rd
40% from middle/upper class 60% working class
Nearly 40% Moroccan/Algerian (next nationality is British 12%ish)
25% criminal records (more with criminal backgrounds but no record)
28% converts to Islam
50% from 'not very religious' households
Unemployment/social deprivation not a significant marker
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Oh here we go, another thread without any basis in facts or truth.

Hey there TC,

In your opinion, what lessons should the world know that the Quran teaches? In other words, if you wanted to summarize the Quran's important messages for non-believers, what would those messages be?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hey Augustus,

Well you hedged on the question about whether we have a problem.

As far as the "us vs. them" situation, let me put it to you this way. In politics, we ALWAYS create "us vs. them" situations. Correct? Well guess what, Islam IS a political construct. Muslims use Islam's religious facet as a way to cover for its political aspirations, but make no mistake, Islam IS politics.

As for 1st gen. vs. 2nd gen. there is one way to look at this situation that might be very natural: 1st gen. immigrants have direct experience with the differences between where they came from, and their host country. Subsequent generations have only mythology about where their parents or grandparents came from, and such mythology is often painted favorably and inaccurately. You know "the good old days back in Morocco".
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@icehorse Islam is not politics. It is you who are a politician. You do not realize anything. I challenge you to point out one error in the Qur'an.
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@icehouse If two people disagree with what the true meaning of what God is saying, then that means they are arrogant.
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@Ya'quub Walaykum, brother. I never said it does not contain politics. He said that Islam is politics, however that is not the complete foundation of it,
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hey there TC,

In your opinion, what lessons should the world know that the Quran teaches? In other words, if you wanted to summarize the Quran's important messages for non-believers, what would those messages be?

If I may.

Reading a book like a manthra is idiotic unless you follow what you read. Again, Igra. Read!

17:36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

Freedom of Creed
10:99 And had your Lord willed, all the people on the Earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?

You cannot kill unjustly
17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.

Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.

2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.


Respect for individual privacy
24:27 O you who believe, do not enter any homes except your own unless you are invited and you greet the people in them. This is best for you, perhaps you will remember.

Equality
49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
49:13 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

Welfare
30:38 So give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer. That is best for those who seek God's presence, and they are the successful ones.

No Usury
30:39 And any usury you have taken to grow from the people's money, it will not grow with God. And any contribution that you have placed seeking His presence, then those will be multiplied. 3:130 O you who believe, do not consume usury, compounding over and over; and reverence God that you may succeed.

Right to travel
29:56 "O My servants who believed, My Earth is spacious, so serve only Me."

No eternal/perpetual circulation of wealth (No Monopolization)
59:7 And whatever God provided to His messenger from the people of the townships, then it shall be to God and His messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer. Thus, it will not remain perpetual circulation by the rich among you. And you may take what the messenger gives you, but do not take what he withholds you from taking. And be aware of God, for God is mighty in retribution.

''My four children will one day live in a nation, when they will not be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character'' - Martin Luther King

No racism
49:13 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

No false slander.
But you can stand up for your rights 148. Allah does not love the public mention of evil words, except by the one who has been wronged. And Allah is All-Hearing, All- Knowing.

ustice
42:39 And those who, when gross injustice befalls them, they seek justice.

Right to demand justice
42:41 And for any who demand action after being wronged, those are not committing any error.

No oppression.
42:42 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.

Right to borrowed property
4:58 God orders you to deliver anything you have been entrusted with to its owners. And if you judge between the people, then you shall judge with justice. It is always the best that God prescribes for you. God is Hearer, Seer.

Do not harm the environment
55:7 And He raised the heaven and He established the balance. 55:8 Do not transgress in the balance.

Innocence until proven guilty
24:11 Those who have brought forth the false accusation were a group from within you. Do not think it is bad for you, for it is good for you. Every person among them will have what he deserves of the sin. And as for he who had the greatest portion of it, he will have a great retribution.

Punishment cannot exceed the gravity of the crime
16:126 And if you punish, then punish with equivalence to that which you were punished. And if you are patient then it is better for the patient ones.

You must fight on behalf of the weak
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”

Charities to be used for just cause
9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Greet people well

And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things - Quran 4:86

Humility

And be humble in how you walk and lower your voice. For the harshest of all voices is the voice of the donkeys. - Quran 31:19

Invite to your path with wisdom and good advice

Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. - Quran 16:125

Kindness to parents

And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying. And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say: ‘My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was small. - Quran 17:23-24

Speak well with good words

Have you not seen how God puts forth the example that a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and whose branches are in the heaven. It bears its fruit every so often with the permission of its Lord; and God puts forth the examples for the people, perhaps they will remember. - Quran 14:24-25

Do not speak with bad words

And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle. - Quran 14:26

Patience and mercy

And race towards forgiveness from your Lord and a Paradise whose width encompasses the width of the heavens and of the earth; it has been prepared for the righteous. The ones who spend in prosperity and adversity, and who repress anger, and who pardon the people; God loves the good doers. - Quran 3:133-134

Practice goodness against your enemy

Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend. - Quran 41:34

Do not be arrogant or insolent

And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For God does not love the arrogant show off. - Quran 31:18

Humility and wisdom

And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say: ‘Peace. - Quran 25:63

Don’t insult those of other religions. Do not play God.

And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done. - Quran 6:108

Do not mock others

O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.” - Quran 49:11

Do not practice suspicion and backbiting

O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful. - Quran 49:12

No racism

O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honourable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.” - Quran 49:13
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
@icehouse If two people disagree with what the true meaning of what God is saying, then that means they are arrogant.

Salaam,

So when the Prophet (s) disagreed with what the disbelievers were saying about Allaah and Allaah's Word, the Prophet (s) was arrogant??! Astaghfirullaah!

Wassalaam
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@Ya'quub Are you really a follower of Islam? I think you are a troll because of the fact that you do not even know how to spell Islam properly. If i say that means they are arrogant is if they misconcept the meaning of what God truly said. The prophets were not implied by me as arrogant. The people are arrogant if they disbelieve even after knowing the truth of what Allah was saying in the Qur'an.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
@Ya'quub Are you really a follower of Islam? I think you are a troll because of the fact that you do not even know how to spell Islam properly. If i say that means they are arrogant is if they misconcept the meaning of what God truly said. The prophets were not implied by me as arrogant. The people are arrogant if they disbelieve even after knowing the truth of what Allah was saying in the Qur'an.

Salaam,

Allaah knows Best who is truly a Muslim and who not. I am just asking you to choose your words carefully and explain what you mean.

As to misconceiving the meaning of what Allaah truly said, the Qur'aan is open to interpretation, so two people can disagree on the meaning of the Qur'aan, without being arrogant..

Wassalaam
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Salaam,

Allaah knows Best who is truly a Muslim and who not. I am just asking you to choose your words carefully and explain what you mean.

As to misconceiving the meaning of what Allaah truly said, the Qur'aan is open to interpretation, so two people can disagree on the meaning of the Qur'aan, without being arrogant..

Wassalaam

PS. What is a troll here?
 
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