Islam vs western values

[Valjean]

riots have destroyed a lot of government properties and it's time for us to dominate the west

Why would you want to dominate anybody? Can't we just all get along peacefully, as equals?
If Muslims don't value peace and harmony, why the traditional peace greeting?

 

[Valjean]

You say you don't blindly follow any forefather then make a vague reference to following a way "that people in the 7th century followed", but who are those 7th century people whose way you (in my view) blindly follow if not your Islamic forefathers?

Here is the litmus test for determining whether you are blindly following in my opinion, if you are not blindly following you should be able to support your way using reason, so demonstrate according to reason that lgbt folk should be murdered and that slavery should be supported in the age of the industrial revolution please.

But does Gamer base his opinions on reason and thinking, or on a set of arbitrary rules not tailored to human freedom or happiness?

Gamer does not seem used to thinking about questions of morality or behavior, nor does he trust the judgement of 'individuals' who are. He has his shariïc crutch, and assumes all others are similarly morally disabled.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood. all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand. in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

Islam never changes? That's kind of a bummer in a world where change is the only constant!

There was a time, long ago, when Islam saved much of ancient wisdom and science, and the world should be grateful for it. Islam translated Greek and Latin philosophy, science and literature into Arabic at a phenomenal rate.

Today, the Islamic world translates the knowledge of the whole world into Arabic at a rate of about 1% of the rest of the human race. Islam has given up learning in favour of dogma and stagnation.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

riots have destroyed a lot of government properties and it's time for us to dominate the west

Oh, so you see the world as who gets to be boss, and who gets to be the slave. How enlightened of you! How did you come by your brilliance?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But does Gamer base his opinions on reason and thinking, or on a set of arbitrary rules not tailored to human freedom or happiness?

Look at the Taliban -- freedom and happiness aren't at the bottom of the list of importance, they're not on the list. Cringing, obedience, self-abasement, hate of others -- those are the things valued in that person's worldview.

 

[Valjean]

they were just not many of them prior to west legalizing it

You know perfectly well that that is not true.

 

[Valjean]

i have already said many times that gays being bad is a morality of most of human history which is a reason on its own

It was a morality of primitive Abrahamics, not humanity in general.

 

[Valjean]

danieldemol said: No I don't, because my principle is not to pretend that harm goes away just because 10 people are enjoying the result which wouldn't even be much of a result by the time it was divided 10 ways in my view.

So if my wife and I were living in a house, and a family of four threw us out and moved in, that would be just, in your opinion?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

humans aren't born gay. is it a coincidence that most humans that are born gays are in 21th century but were not seen in past?

So, your knowledge of history is close to zero. Would you like to see a list of gay emperors, kings, queens, and sultans from the past? Yes, Islam had them -- lots of them. Look it up -- try googling "homosexuality in the Ottoman empire."

 

[danieldemol]

So if my wife and I were living in a house, and a family of four threw us out and moved in, that would be just, in your opinion?

No. Did you mean to quote somebody else?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

because Islam never changes

Of course, if "Islam never changes," it ought to be impossible for there to be two branches of Islam -- Suni and Shia -- wouldn't you agree? And of course Sufis don't exist at all, and one has to wonder if the Wahabist Saudi's are just a myth.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

i think christianity and other religions are already lost. christianity has changed to fit liberalist,lgbt and whatever but you won't see muslims accepting those things or claiming that to be allowed in islam just to fit in western world. we would never change islam for anything and it can never be changed for anything. it will remain forever while everything else will fade away

Did you join RF just to let everybody know how much you hate everybody else? Does it make you feel better about yourself?

 

[Valjean]

all of that are your imaginations which i don't care about. i can also imagine that there were aliens hiding in past and didn't show up because people would kill them

OK, feel free to believe these are my personal opinions and not conclusions reached by extensive research and testing.
You live in a fantasy world, and rely on faith rather than facts or reason. Not all of us do.

that's why we would rather die following islam than bowing to western values that are forced upon us

And yet when there was no force, Muslims accepted them readily.

This sounds like a benefit of challenging slavery as a behavior or idea, not of challenging the individuals themselves who hold those views. What is the benefit to passing judgement on specific individuals - for both the judgers and the judged? Or do you not feel there is a distinction there between being judgmental of specific humans versus a behavior or idea? Is, say, hating on anti-choice humans the same as hating on anti-choice ideology in your view?

Individuals are the agents and perpetrators of the ideas and behaviors. Without individual, human agents the ideas would be inert.

 

[Valjean]

No. Did you mean to quote somebody else?

D'oh!
I was trying to comment on Gamer's belief that the few may be justly exploited by the many.

 

[ppp]

I agree that we all rely on experience. In legal cases, we seek a jury who has similar experience as ourselves. Just survival instincts, just/kind etc. = anyone who agrees/helps us. We're all just trying to survive based on what our experience has taught us.

I am not following your train of thought. What does this have to do with your question about where beliefs originate?

I guess I grew up in/live in a diverse area where most people help one another despite religious/political differences.

I think most areas that are not in extremis are such areas. But what they think constitutes help differs from person to person. And sometimes contradicts.

 

[ppp]

I agree that we all rely on experience. In legal cases, we seek a jury who has similar experience as ourselves. Just survival instincts, just/kind etc. = anyone who agrees/helps us. We're all just trying to survive based on what our experience has taught us.

I guess I grew up in/live in a diverse area where most people help one another despite religious/political differences.

You become aware of an isolated tribe with no contact to the rest of humanity. They are suffering from a smallpox epidemic. They are un aware of you. You have the smallpox vaccine. What do you do?

 

[idea]

I am not following your train of thought. What does this have to do with your question about where beliefs originate?

I think most areas that are not in extremis are such areas. But what they think constitutes help differs from person to person. And sometimes contradicts.

Western thought vs eastern thought- originates with where you were born, what experience you had. No right or wrong, just chance circumstances.

Most humans have learned basic social / herd instincts allow survival is all.

 

[idea]

You become aware of an isolated tribe with no contact to the rest of humanity. They are suffering from a smallpox epidemic. They are un aware of you. You have the smallpox vaccine. What do you do?

Herd instinct dictates helping one another if possible.

Q: Are there more herbivores or carnivors? What lifeforms are most abundant? Have survived and thrived the most? Why?

Autotroph- most abundant, strongest.

 

[ppp]

Western thought vs eastern thought- originates with where you were born, what experience you had. No right or wrong, just chance circumstances.

Most humans have learned basic social / herd instincts allow survival is all.

That is a false dichotomy. It draws lines that are both arbitrary and false. As such, I reject it.

 

[ppp]

Herd instinct dictates helping one another if possible.

Non responsiveness bores me.