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Islam vs western values

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, the principles are not the same. That's the point.

I've told you that the average age of onset for kleptomania is around 17-years-of-age which would indicate that it's not something one is "born with." You've ignored this twice now. Could you try responding to it?
"Inborn" dosn't involve age of onset. Many pathologies typically manifest at certain ages.

That said, kleptomania probably does have a genetic component, but it is dysfunctional and harmful, so may legitimately be suppressed coercively.

But I agree with your conclusions. Gender variation is not harmful -- though it discomfits the novelty and diversity challenged conservatives.
We should not indulge the psychopathology of conservatives at the expense of normal, harmless, sexual variants.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
"Average, means some more and some less. There are many supposed conditions that don't appear at the beginning.

Average age for gender dysphoria is 26. I'm sure you have a point.
You completely ignored the post that contained the point I was making.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
"Inborn" dosn't involve age of onset. Many pathologies typically manifest at certain ages.
That reflects the apparent fact that there seem to be critical periods in our brain's development during late adolescence that can make us vulnerable to the onset of say, psychopathology. We can have sets of genes that predispose us to all kinds of things, but without particular environmental cues being present at the "right" times, we may never develop those conditions at all.


That said, kleptomania probably does have a genetic component, but it is dysfunctional and harmful, so may legitimately be suppressed coercively.
Sure. There's also a difference here between something that is considered a set of behaviours versus some innate feeling of attraction/sexual orientation. The latter isn't necessarily involved in any behaviours at all, while a kleptomaniac is carrying out a very specific set of behaviours. Behaviours that are harmful to themselves and others, as you point out.


But I agree with your conclusions. Gender variation is not harmful -- though it discomfits novelty and diversity challenged conservatives.
We should not indulge the psychopathology of conservatives at the expense of normal, harmless, sexual variants.
Agreed.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There are desires, there are drives, there are instincts. Our anatomy, including neural architecture, evolves through natural selection. Our psychology and social behavior evolves through natural selection. Our physiology, including gating, activation pathways, specialty regions, hormones and neurotransmitters; evolves through natural selection.

Physical and behavioral diversity is selective. It enables adaptation to changing conditions. Specialization is hazardous, and leads to extinction with changing environmental conditions.

Homosexuality has been shown to increase reproductive success in the human population, by anthropologists. Homosexuality is a common variation in both mammals, birds and fish. It is not unnatural, it's functional.

There are too many factors to just put a thumbs up on this one.

Yes, there are desires, drives and instincts. Desires and drives are malleable. Instincts are not. Our anatomy, including neural architecture evolve into "what"! To say it evolves into homosexuality is not called "increase reproductive success" is incorrect no matter which PhD says it does. Logic shouts out against it. It isn't "functional" other than satisfying desires and drives. I hate zeroing into "homosexuality". Heterosexuality and its desires and drive to have sex with younger and younger children is disgusting to say the least. But, like unto NAMBLA, they claim it is good. I suggest people see Sounds of Freedom. We could say "instincts says no" - but the conscience can be seared to where it is calloused to any other voice of reason.

Physical and behavioral diversity... too broad a subject. Just one area - height of humans, it is not adaptive to conditions that I am aware of. It is more due to our diet after DNA

Certain anthropologist that have an opinion on functionality is just that, their personal opinion.

Homosexuality is a common variation... so is cannibalism... so what's for dinner? I don't think that is a standard. We have the free will of control.

But there is; a greatdeal of hard evidence, both in clinical and in neural imaging studies. It is not a rebellion, and rarely a social choice. It is a natural, functional, variation.

You did not choose to be heterosexual. It came upon you, at puberty or even before. The focus of attraction, the degree of attraction -- not your choice.

Social attitudes toward it in Abrahamic religions do not reflect reality; they reflect Abrahamic theology. They are not fact based.
Anthropology, psychology and medicine are fact based, and they disagree with religious teaching, which is designed to maintain an ideal, social, status quo. The religious narrative, again, is not fact based.

Actually, it wasn't a "choice"... it was a decision. But you NAILED it when you said "the focus of attraction" that leads to "degree of attraction". Add to that violation through rape, lack of a father figure, and a host of other external experiences all factor in.

Forget "religion". That comes back to my position that it is "cultural acceptance" that is the rule of law which may be a religion and not necessarily what is right or wrong. Cannibals have socially accepted that it is right to eat your enemy. In the Amazons there are tribes that declare it is correct to bury a live child because the male father decided he had too big of a family - even if it was 1 year old.

Exactly!
As I've said, sex drive is complex and multi-factoral. Unlike eye color or handedness, it involves several brain areas and neural pathways. It is complex and deeply embedded, which is why it's so difficult to alter, therapeutically.

Drives are controllable. A serial killer was driven. A kleptomaniac is driven. It is complex, yes, but malleable.

Social and behavioral norms exist, but they can't change biology. They may repress behaviors, and produce an image of homogeneity and normal behavior, but they can't rewire complex neurological wiring.

Gender and sexual orientation aren't either-or, nor are they choices. Fact-based, biological studies support this. Religion does not -- but religion is not fact based, nor is it a research modality.

So if you can't change biology, no amount of hormones and physical realignments will still not make a man a woman and a woman a man. That's biology. But to suggest that we are predestined to be who we are, then we are back to accepting kleptomaniacs and not trying to change those people

So, whether religion or culturally accepted norms, it is that which defines what is accepted. Forget that my faith is the truth :D - in its application it is as true as what you say is true. But that is a whole 'nuther animal. :D
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No... you mentioned average. It just made your point mute.
Your biological and psychological "information" is outdated by many decades. I've already pointed out where and how many times before, but you repeat it still. You seem impervious to evidence presented to you that challenges your pre-conceived views. I mean, you're still trying to argue that sexual orientation is a choice and still claiming that homosexuality is the result of rape and abuse in childhood. And you think your own version of "logic" trumps the evidence presented by the experts. I have no idea how to have a proper conversation this way. :shrug:
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Your biological and psychological "information" is outdated by many decades. I've already pointed out where and how many times before, but you repeat it still. You seem impervious to evidence presented to you that challenges your pre-conceived views. I mean, you're still trying to argue that sexual orientation is a choice and still claiming that homosexuality is the result of rape and abuse in childhood. And you think your own version of "logic" trumps the evidence presented by the experts. I have no idea how to have a proper conversation this way. :shrug:
Is gravity outdated?

Everyone continues to harp on homosexuality as if they are homophobic. I have used heterosexuality, kleptomaniacs, and every person living on this earth.

Can we stay focused?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Do you really think an unmarried rapist deserves no punishment?
In this case the marriage would be punishment for him. He would have to raise and support the kid and wife, could not marry anyone else and without being very good for the wife, would have miserable life.

It would be interesting to see, how often this has happened (virgin raping virgin) and how things went after that.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
In this case the marriage would be punishment for him. He would have to raise and support the kid and wife, could not marry anyone else and without being very good for the wife, would have miserable life.

It would be interesting to see, how often this has happened (virgin raping virgin) and how things went after that.

So the girl has no say in this. Basically "you will marry the rapist who has ruined your life"
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
In this case the marriage would be punishment for him. He would have to raise and support the kid and wife, could not marry anyone else and without being very good for the wife, would have miserable life.
So the perpetrator and the victim receive the same "punishment."
Ick. What's moral about that?
It would be interesting to see, how often this has happened (virgin raping virgin) and how things went after that.
No thanks. I'd rather die than marry some dude who raped me.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So the girl has no say in this. Basically "you will marry the rapist who has ruined your life"
By what the Bible tells, Moses gave right to divorce. The reason why I think this is not too bad is that in this case the man has to take care of the child and the woman, pay their living. I think letting the man go without any real consequences would be even worse and actually could increase such violations as I think is now happening in many western countries.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So the perpetrator and the victim receive the same "punishment."
I don't think it is the same, because then man would have to provide the woman and the child. Also, in this probably very rare case that a virgin rapes a virgin, the man's situation would be also different because the woman would probably hate the man all his life.

But, to be clear, I think rape is wrong always. However, if there was, which I don't believe, virgin raping virgin case, what would have been better solution, kill the rapist? Put him in a jail and in that way provide his life for free? In my opinion it is good, if the rapist pays for the consequences, as in the Biblical case.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
By what the Bible tells, Moses gave right to divorce. The reason why I think this is not too bad is that in this case the man has to take care of the child and the woman, pay their living. I think letting the man go without any real consequences would be even worse and actually could increase such violations as I think is now happening in many western countries.

Shersh really, you are ok with allowing the female to be forced to face the man who raped her evey day of her married life... That truly is sick
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Don't most religions make this claim?
How would the world change for the better if I were Christian?

I haven't noticed that Christian societies were any less cruel, violent, greedy or dishonest than non-Christian ones. They were more so than many. Aren't crime rates higher in Bible-belt states than in "heathen" New England or Pacific Northwestern states. Aren't the lowest corruption and crime rates found in non-believing regions like Scandinavia?
I believe religions should make that claim and it should be true to some extent. However no other religion is as effective in doing so.

I believe the Holy Spirit will guide a person into good ways and away from evil.

I believe societies vary. To see the true results one needs to see a true Christian.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yet Christian societies have mostly been fractious and warlike, unlike, say, some Buddhist societies.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I don't think it is the same, because then man would have to provide the woman and the child. Also, in this probably very rare case that a virgin rapes a virgin, the man's situation would be also different because the woman would probably hate the man all his life.
I agree. The woman's (undeserved) punishment is far worse.
But, to be clear, I think rape is wrong always.
Agreed.
However, if there was, which I don't believe, virgin raping virgin case, what would have been better solution, kill the rapist? Put him in a jail and in that way provide his life for free? In my opinion it is good, if the rapist pays for the consequences, as in the Biblical case.
Oh man, if only you didn't include the "however" here.
Rapists belong in prison away from people so they can't rape anyone else ever again. You don't come up with a punishment for the rapist that also severely punishes the victim. That's immoral and absurd to me.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood. all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand. in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

Correct. And that's exactly what I am afraid of.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
i live my life islamically

Verse 9:111 say, "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

Have you started killing yet, or have you decided you don't want to go to heaven? Those ARE your choices according to the above.
 
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