Islam vs western values

[Aupmanyav]

So like in Saudi Arabia or Taliban Afghanistan, where women are not allowed outside without a male chaperone.

There is no such condition in Saudi Arabia now. Women can drive cars without being accompanied by menfolk. Even Saudi Arabia is changing.

 

[YmirGF]

They're locked up in a tiny cell and you're not.

What the fellow does not understand is that the food they give you in prison is BARELY worth eating. It's warmed over garbage. (And that is what I got in Canada. I cannot even imagine how bad it must be in other countries... if they feed the prisoners, of course)

Sharing a 12x12 cinderblock cell with a young meth head with a fried brain was great fun too.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And I don't think the scripture forces woman to do so. It forces the man, but if the woman don't accept, I don't think she would have to.

To prove that they have been raped, women have to have 4 witnesses from practicing male Muslims or 8 witnesses from practicing female Muslims, 16 witnesses from male people of the book or 32 witnesses from female people of the book*. Do you think rapes are done in such conditions? It is practically impossible to prove rape in Islam. It is taken as the desire of a wanton woman who should then be stoned to death.

* 64 witnesses from male non-believers and 128 witnesses from female non-believers to prove rape that they saw the whole episode with their eyes. Islam is very clear about it.

 

[Muffled]

Verse 9:111 say, "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

Have you started killing yet, or have you decided you don't want to go to heaven? Those ARE your choices according to the above.

I believe that interpretation is incorrect.

 

[stevecanuck]

I believe that interpretation is incorrect.

Here are more. Pick one you like better:

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

corpus.quran.com

 

[soulsurvivor]

There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood. all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand. in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

What are Islamic values that are different from Western values? (Hopefully you don't mean what women should wear).

 

[ppp]

There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood. all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand. in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

Shame on those people in the future.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Verse 9:111 say, "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

That is very convenient. God (or his representative) takes everything and gives a paper promise, no evidence, no guarantee. Seems to be a scam. I also give this honest promise. Those who believe in Verse 9.111 should transfer their assets to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Christian values will still be standing 1000 years in the west if you believe we’ll still be here in 1000 years that is.

Are Christian values any different from Hindu or Buddhist values? Why then the fake trademark of Christian values? These are values of human societies. Don't plagiarize them.

 

[Jimmy]

Are Christian values any different from Hindu or Buddhist values? Why then the fake trademark of Christian values? These are values of human societies. Don't plagiarize them.

Look back at our original conversation before you make conclusions. Or not, haha

 

[Aupmanyav]

Of course, I will. But your statement indicates plagiarization and appropriation. There is nothing inherently 'Christian' in the 'Christian values' that you mention.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Christian values will still be standing 1000 years in the west if you believe we’ll still be here in 1000 years that is.

"20 percent of Christians don’t believe in the God of the Bible." This poll asked Americans if they believe in God. The answers were fascinating.

 

[Jimmy]

Of course, I will. But your statement indicates plagiarization and appropriation. There is nothing inherently 'Christian' in the 'Christian values' that you mention.

??? Like I said read the conversation. Furthermore, you shouldn't be so judgemental.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, it's from the Qur'an. It clearly says Muslim men can have sex with their wives and their slaves/captives whenever they want to. There's no mystery to it.

No .. it is not a mystery to me.
It means that a Muslim may NOT have relations with anybody else!

..not that anyone should treat their wives without respect.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If a woman's father says she must marry (see the above), then yes she has to..

Rubbish !
No woman has to marry a person they don't want to (regardless of age) .. it's their choice.
I think you refer to the culture of some Muslim majority countries, and the ignorance that people follow.
..and don't forget the problem of sheer poverty, and how it affects our lives.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no such condition in Saudi Arabia now. Women can drive cars without being accompanied by menfolk. Even Saudi Arabia is changing.

Mmm .. the world has been transformed by "black gold" [benzene - petrol - gas]

 

[1213]

To prove that they have been raped, women have to have 4 witnesses from practicing male Muslims or 8 witnesses from practicing female Muslims, 16 witnesses from male people of the book or 32 witnesses from female people of the book*. Do you think rapes are done in such conditions? It is practically impossible to prove rape in Islam. It is taken as the desire of a wanton woman who should then be stoned to death.

* 64 witnesses from male non-believers and 128 witnesses from female non-believers to prove rape that they saw the whole episode with their eyes. Islam is very clear about it.

Ok, thanks for that information.

 

[1213]

That is quite silly. Make as 500 km road connecting two cities and costing USD 2 billion. You will employ an architect, a company with expertise to make a road, you will need raw materials, which company would you buy these from?
To whom would you give your part of the cost of the project, which bank will you deposit it in, who will the authority to pay the money, who will check if the money is not misused?
Your system is OK if you want a 1 km road to connect your village to the main road or dig a well in the village. But modern times require huge projects which canno0t be done in this village-wise way.
Are you living in a remote self-sufficient village? Even that will require things to be brought from cities. Would you grow your own cereals and vegs? Would you weave your own cloth? Would you use electricity or use bear fat to light a lamp in the night?

I think everything good and useful is possible without governments or taxes. But, without governments, people would probably not spent ridiculous amounts of money for things that are not necessary for vast number of people.

 

[1213]

So like in Saudi Arabia or Taliban Afghanistan, where women are not allowed outside without a male chaperone.

Isn't Sweden also like that. I think women are vulnerable everywhere. Or why do you think we have all kind of guards, police and surveillance cameras in almost every corned or our living spaces? Western culture is no better than Muslim culture in that regards, we have just a different way to handle the criminality of people.

 

[1213]

No it didn't, it treated women as property to be used and abused at the will of their father, slave master (husband) or rapist. How you can call that "not bad"?

Do you not think a woman should have the same freedom of choice, the same rights as a man as to how they live their lives?

I think woman can have the same freedom. But, they are still more vulnerable than men. And I think family is better protector than government and I don't like how western world is becoming more and more communistic, where government seeks to be all knowing and all powerful controller of everything. Governments don't really care about people, they care only about own power and money.

The good thing in the property idea is, if person owns something, he takes care of it and doesn't want any harm for his property. I believe that is the reason why it was set like that earlier. It doesn't mean that women are then automatically treated badly. But, obviously it is possible. However, I don't think it is because of the system. Women are treated badly also in this modern western system. I think all evil actions comes from evil people. And no matter what is the system, the evil people would do evil actions anyway. That is why I think it would be important to teach people to love as Jesus taught.