Islam vs western values

[Shadow Wolf]

That is a false dichotomy. It draws lines that are both arbitrary and false. As such, I reject it.

The Western and Eastern mentalities?

 

[ppp]

The Western and Eastern mentalities?

Yeah. I get the handiness of the shorthand. But however one draws the lines, it stereotypes an entire hemisphere into a "mentality. "

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah. I get the handiness of the shorthand. But however one draws the lines, it stereotypes an entire hemisphere into a "mentality. "

We do think of thinks differently. Such as, Westerns are hugley more individual in our thinking whereas Easterners are more collective thinking. Simply put, we play chess while they play go. Of course it's not 100%, life doesn't work that way, but indeed the differences are real.

Eastern Psychology vs. Western Psychology | Is there a difference?

Saybrook alumna compares Eastern versus Western psychology, including the therapeutic approaches of Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, or yoga.

www.saybrook.edu

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yeah. I get the handiness of the shorthand. But however one draws the lines, it stereotypes an entire hemisphere into a "mentality. "

Yeah, and given that "Western culture" and "Eastern culture" are both vague, overly broad, and not rigorously defined terms (to the point where there's no standard academic definition of either), I agree it's better to use more specific and accurate terms.

India, Morocco, and Thailand are all "Eastern," yet vast cultural differences exist between them—arguably to the same extent as there are differences between each and a randomly picked "Western" culture. Likewise for the term "Western" and the US, Poland, and Italy.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We do think of thinks differently.

That applies to, say, Iran and South Korea, but both are "Eastern." It also applies to the UK and Serbia, despite both supposedly falling under the "Western" umbrella.

Such as, Westerns are hugley more individual in our thinking whereas Easterners are more collective thinking. Simply put, we play chess while they play go. Of course it's not 100%, life doesn't work that way, but indeed the differences are real.

Eastern Psychology vs. Western Psychology | Is there a difference?

Saybrook alumna compares Eastern versus Western psychology, including the therapeutic approaches of Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, or yoga.

www.saybrook.edu

Many broad differences exist between the "Western" and "Eastern" parts of the world, of course, but they're not specific, uniform, or consistent enough to give the terms much depth. For instance (apologies for the long quotes; I just found all of these relevant to the discussion):

“Western culture” is a vague term often seen in academic environments. However, it is difficult even amongst scholars to identify which cultures and peoples are included within the distinction of “western.”

Both schools of thought have drastically different ideas on how the world and society should be governed. “The East” is far more communal, and far more reverent of the elderly. “The West,” on the other hand, is wildly individualistic, pushing for each person to carve out their own mark. Family names became less important in the west because of this. Thus, “western culture” seems to be a somewhat arbitrary distinction used across academics to describe ideological, cultural, and ethnic uniformity amongst European and derivative nations.

Of course, this distinction does not account for the entire picture of typically “western” nations, namely the problem of Eastern European countries, who often can be seen as outliers. They are excluded from the engagements of Western Europe, and also have endured much cultural assimilation from Mediterranean and Middle Eastern states.

I find this part especially useful here:

So, we can acknowledge the shortcomings of the term pragmatically. What was also previously pointed out is its use in separating “the East” from “the West” — a separation almost solely based on historical development of technologies and differences in major philosophical schools which govern political and cultural mentalities. Eastern philosophies focus significantly on collective good, whereas Western philosophies are centered on good for the individual.

Western culture does not describe any specific group or belief, but instead it describes tendencies within cultural thought and practices, tendencies which favor the plight of the individual rather than the collective. It is a distinction which should not be given more depth than it is worth — an academic dichotomy. It speaks to greater separations in the development of world culture.

What Exactly is “Western Culture”? - The Bottom Line UCSB

Sofia Lyon & Nathan Staff Writer & Contributing Writer “Western culture” is a vague term often seen in academic environments. However, it is difficult even amongst scholars to identify which cultures and peoples are included within the distinction of “western.” While much of it is explainable...

thebottomline.as.ucsb.edu

In many cases where I see terms like "Western culture" and "Eastern culture" brought up as if they were comprehensive, profound, or rigorously insightful, the context tends to be one variety or another of cultural or, less commonly, ethnic supremacism—such as in the rhetoric of Douglas Murray and Viktor Orbán.

 

[1213]

shariah

Please give few examples of what the values shariah gives are?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Western thought vs eastern thought- originates with where you were born, what experience you had. No right or wrong, just chance circumstances.

Most humans have learned basic social / herd instincts allow survival is all.

This is one of those things that convinces me that a god with a single message for all mankind can't possibly exist. At best, if there's anything supernatural going on, there must be at least many gods, with geographical responsibilities. And since that just seems dumb, I go with no gods at all.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Please give few examples of what the values shariah gives are?

Well, women are worth half of men, and non-Muslims (dhimmi) have to pay a tax (jizya) and are forbidden from testifying against a Muslim in a criminal proceeding, for a couple. In classical Sharia, distinctions are made between males and females, Muslims and non-Muslims, and free persons and slaves (which seems to mean that Sharia at least allows for slavery).

The European Court of Civil Rights in Strasbourg has ruled in several cases that Sharia is incompatible with "the fundamental principles of democracy." Imagine a true democracy taxing beliefs!

 

[ppp]

We do think of thinks differently. Such as, Westerns are hugley more individual in our thinking whereas Easterners are more collective thinking. Simply put, we play chess while they play go. Of course it's not 100%, life doesn't work that way, but indeed the differences are real.

Eastern Psychology vs. Western Psychology | Is there a difference?

Saybrook alumna compares Eastern versus Western psychology, including the therapeutic approaches of Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, or yoga.

www.saybrook.edu

@Debater Slayer explained my position better that I probably would have. Like I said, I understand the utility of using those terms as a shorthand. But they are very broad and casual generalizations.

 

[idea]

This is one of those things that convinces me that a god with a single message for all mankind can't possibly exist. At best, if there's anything supernatural going on, there must be at least many gods, with geographical responsibilities. And since that just seems dumb, I go with no gods at all.

I agree. Many gods sounds like many leaders - presidents, kings, popes - the same thing we have now, with none if them being God - at least not what I would think as God- none all-powerful, none all-loving, just etc. In heaven as it is on earth? If thst is what it is, heaven just like earth- suppose we have to choose which group to join? Like choosing what country to live in or something. I don't know what group would be best. Some kind of democracy - by the people, not by the king etc. seems best.

 

[Alien826]

You haven't noticed the peculiarities? Especially his avatar which was revealed to be a Catholic Spaniard (although ultra conservative Muslims are known for thinking sports are haram). His indulgences in Western things he condemns. Very false claims about Muslims and slavery (verified to be false even by those in a Muslim majority country). And more misrepresentations of Islam (they don't dismiss philosophy). And an understanding of history that would make modern Turkey cringe.

I'm talking about his being a troll. A troll is someone that posts with the deliberate intent to stir up emotional reactions with no reference to the truth or supporting a particular point of view (that's badly worded, hopefully the meaning is clear). Simply being inaccurate or stupid doesn't make a person a troll. I can't read his mind of course, and you could be right.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

All living languages, living religions, and living populations evolve continually. They all generate trees by continually bifurcating. The Religions Tree - Urantia Voice

If we don't exterminate ourselves first, he ism that will prevail is humanism - reason and evidence over faith, and conscience over received morals, to generate the most just society possible and the one that best facilitates the individual pursuit of happiness as each understands that within a humanist legal framework. The religions are a barrier to that. Here's what faith gives us (and in government no less):

• "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position and responsibilities
• "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
• "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.

 

[Quintessence]

Individuals are the agents and perpetrators of the ideas and behaviors. Without individual, human agents the ideas would be inert.

Granting this as true, a follow-up query. How do ideas translate into human behaviors that actually matter in the real world? Does holding an idea guarantee a particular outcome? Have we measured this and assessed this? Does someone who holds to the idea that Islam will last forever mean some specific set of behavioral results?

As some might recall, I actually asked the OP this - how ideas going around in the head translate into how their way of life is actually lived. Tangible results, tangible behaviors, impacts on themselves and others. That sort of thing. Does idea X necessarily result in outcome Y? Or is it more complicated than that?

 

[1213]

Well, women are worth half of men, and non-Muslims (dhimmi) have to pay a tax (jizya) and are forbidden from testifying against a Muslim in a criminal proceeding, for a couple. In classical Sharia, distinctions are made between males and females, Muslims and non-Muslims, and free persons and slaves (which seems to mean that Sharia at least allows for slavery).

Ok, if that is true, I don't think believe it lasts. All though I think it is a perfect religion for earthly leaders who seem to have insatiable desire to rule like tyrants.

The European Court of Civil Rights in Strasbourg has ruled in several cases that Sharia is incompatible with "the fundamental principles of democracy." Imagine a true democracy taxing beliefs!

Yeah, I don't think true democracy would do so. However, I don't believe we have a such thing and soon Christianity (as in the Bible) is not taxed, it will probably be banned.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm talking about his being a troll..

..not all Muslims are from Scandinavia

 

[MikeDwight]

How does Islam constitute as a religion? Actually, Islam does not count for religion. a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes. Islam will disappear long before Christianity. Islam follows around a General who conquered Christians throughout Egypt and Greece and was key to divide the body of Christians from the East facing all difficulties and a self-interested West, this is about being unable to meet a challenge at the Heart of it. Why has anyone ever heard Christian in denominations, because the offices of the Christians could never face each other on this crisis is responsible for every difficulty.

For instance "Culture", the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. Islam will disappear in Culture. They are one Racial group. Its ethnoreligion. They are one language, Arabs disappear into any major racial group around without acknowledgment of racial grouping. Arabic is the General's private demontongue that followed him around the middle east and Africa. the only one true Quran from west tip of Africa to Persia. Then all the traits of Islam is the Culture of a single people divided post-liberation into british nation states in the 1960s. Why would I care if it fails, they always talk about it failing.

"islam systems and values last forever" its frmo the year 700 AD he called in his suicide evst with a cellphone. The most important creed to regruop Christians at the Nicene Creed the final Great Church council is from 325 AD. The lingua franca of the council "Koin Greek" of Presbyterianism and Reformed religion and the Westminster is essentially a dead international language. Synods, Presbyters, Alpha Omegas, Ecumenics, Niceaea, you know, you probably would never get to meet or speak Greek in your life to anyone.

 

[Yazata]

There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood.

Or it's existed, in one form or another, since the 7th century CE. The early middle ages.

all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand.

There are many examples of religions of the past that are no longer practiced today. Why are you so sure that Islam won't join that class eventually?

in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes.

Is that supposed to be a good thing? That Islam (supposedly) never changes? Or is it better described as a defect, a flaw? To me, it only serves to lock in a dark-ages sensibility that finds itself increasingly out of tune in a world of science, rationalism and religious and intellectual diversity. Many of the problems that Islam has faced in recent centuries is a result of its increasing inability to cope with modernity.

In reality, Islam has changed a lot, from being a Jewish inspired revival movement among bedouin tribes in Arabia, to being a system of hadiths and jurisprudence, largely formed after the death of Muhammed when Islam transformed into a state religion. There's the Sunni/Shia division that emerged from the same historical changes. Islam subsequently evolved from merely being a system of (supposedly) divinely revealed Law, to being more of a theological system inspired by late antique philosophy. And somewhere along the way it acquired a mystical side in Sufism, that emphasized personal experience more and in some cases, community observance less.

Most dramatically for Islam, it has been forced by its contacts with the Europeans and their colonialism, to confront modernity. Islam has had to come to terms with highly rationalistic intellectual persuits like science. They, or rather their leaders, recognized that they would always be at a disadvantage militarily and economically unless they did, but doing so threatens to dissolve many of the dark-age certainties.

Today, Islam seems to me to face the same challenge that Judaism was forced to confront in the first century CE, when it lost the Jewish Wars with Rome and was forced into exile from the holy land. That exile forced it to transform from being a legalistic state religion, to being more of a personal religion practiced in scattered communities where observance was more of an individual or family thing. I would predict that the movement of large numbers of Muslims from Muslim majority countries where Islam is just part of the culture, into countries with dramatically different cultural values where Muslims are small minorities, will work a similar transformation in Islam, moving it from being a state-religion of law, towards being a more personal religion that comes in countless personal varieties. Much as we see with Christianity and Judaism today.

 

[MikeDwight]

Or it's existed, in one form or another, since the 7th century CE. The early middle ages.



There are many examples of religions of the past that are no longer practiced today. Why are you so sure that Islam won't join that class eventually?


Is that supposed to be a good thing? That Islam (supposedly) never changes? Or is it better described as a defect, a flaw? To me, it only serves to lock in a dark-ages sensibility that finds itself increasingly out of tune in a world of science, rationalism and religious and intellectual diversity. Many of the problems that Islam has faced in recent centuries is a result of its increasing inability to cope with modernity.

In reality, Islam has changed a lot, from being a Jewish inspired revival movement among bedouin tribes in Arabia, to being a system of hadiths and jurisprudence, largely formed after the death of Muhammed. There's the Sunni/Shia division. It evolved from merely being a system of (supposedly) divinely revealed Law, to being more of a theological system inspired by late antique philosophy. And somewhere along the way it acquired a mystical side in Sufism, that emphasized personal experience more and in some cases, community observance less.

Most dramatically for Islam, it has been forced by its contacts with the Europeans and their colonialism, to confront modernity. Islam has had to come to terms with highly rationalistic intellectual persuits like science. They, or rather their leaders, recognized that they would always be at a disadvantage militarily and economically unless they did, but doing so threatens to be a mind-virus dissolving many of the dark-age certainties.

Today, Islam seems to me to face the same challenge that Judaism was forced to confront in the first century CE, when it lost the Jewish Wars with Rome and was forced into exile from the holy land. That exile forced it to transform from being a national religion of law, to being more of a personal religion practiced in scattered communities where observance was more of an individual or family thing. I would predict that the movement of large numbers of Muslims from Muslim majority countries where Islam is just part of the culture, into countries with dramatically different cultural values, will work a similar transformation in Islam, moving it from being a state-religion of law, towards being a more personal religion that comes in countless personal varieties.

In fact Pro Gamer just made a circular statement that Islam erases all cultures and that it will survive? "Coptic" is a Christian Group and "Coptic" is also the name of the inhabitants of Egypt before arabization. The Coptic Period is 100 to 600 AD. They take care and priority over the Pyramids and history. Christianity is history and Islam invades museums and it destroyed the Iraq museum.

 

[danieldemol]

Today, Islam seems to me to face the same challenge that Judaism was forced to confront in the first century CE, when it lost the Jewish Wars with Rome and was forced into exile from the holy land. That exile forced it to transform from being a legalistic state religion, to being more of a personal religion practiced in scattered communities where observance was more of an individual or family thing. I would predict that the movement of large numbers of Muslims from Muslim majority countries where Islam is just part of the culture, into countries with dramatically different cultural values where Muslims are small minorities, will work a similar transformation in Islam, moving it from being a state-religion of law, towards being a more personal religion that comes in countless personal varieties. Much as we see with Christianity and Judaism today.

As far as I know the majority of Muslims have never been exiled and scattered, unlike Jews.

So it won't necessarily follow a similar trajectory in my view

 

[Valjean]

Ok, if that is true, I don't think believe it lasts. All though I think it is a perfect religion for earthly leaders who seem to have insatiable desire to rule like tyrants.

It's written! In the Quran. So it's likely to last as long as fundamentalism persists. Abrahamic religions are hierarchical, and religion in general functions to keep 'the people' in line, the status quo in effect, and the power and privilege of those benefiting from the status quo secure.

Yeah, I don't think true democracy would do so. However, I don't believe we have a such thing and soon Christianity (as in the Bible) is not taxed, it will probably be banned.

True Democracy is rule by The People.
The Demos is égalitarian, with all races and sexes equal. Islam is not democratic, it's hierarchical. The very word "islam" means submission/slavery.