Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Fatihah]

Wow, you're really something. First I ask you the question. Then I ask you to answer the question. Then I prove that you failed to answer the question. Then you answer the question. Now you want me to once again prove that you failed to answer the question? Give me a break. Frankly, I doubt that anyone else is following this infantile competition, or I would ask their opinion. I can't be bothered.

In any case, as a person who calls himself Muslim, you cannot be relied on, according to you, and you have amply demonstrated as much.

I think I'll take a break from you; it's too much work for so little substance.

Response: To the contrary, you first make a claim with no proof. Then when trying to provide proof, we find that you couldn't comprehend your own post and don't have the humility to acknowledge it. Perhaps it is best to follow your own advice and take a break.

 

[Riverwolf]

sure --but this is an international forum.

^_^ I mean culture-wise, not nation-wise. I don't really acknowledge political boundaries; as far as I'm concerned, the boundaries are social ones.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm sorry, I got lost. What did I beg to differ about again?

This:

You made a good point when you said we have to take responsibility for our own actions, I agree, we should look at our own actions and when we call it "Islamic justice" we are not helping.

I get lost, too, often. Don't worry about it. ^_^

 

[Autodidact]

Oh, O.K. So your question is why did it take a while for any Muslims to join the thread? You'd have to ask them, but my first guess is that it's because I didn't put it in the Islam DIR forum.

 

[Autodidact]

Including here at home. Let's focus our efforts here, first.

I would respond that as far as this issue, there is no comparison. The American jurisprudence system may not be entirely free from sexism, but it does not flog rape victims while letting their rapists go free. That is outrageous.

Early Roman Catholicism was the same way. They seem to be getting along just fine separate from politics these days.

Maybe one day Islam will separate itself from governance. It shows no signs of doing so now, quite the contrary.

Some people assert that the problem with Islam is that, unlike Catholicism, it never went through a reformation.

Besides, even if we do fix the Sharia laws in Muslim countries; that won't change anything at first. Just like the old sexism is still prevalent in America, as is racism, sexism among Muslims will continue for centuries after Islam has no say in politics.

The sexism itself is what we need to address; the laws are only a symptom, IMO.

No, there is no comparison. American women can vote, drive, get custody, wear what we like, travel freely, and lodge a rape charge, all without fear of criminal prosecution or state-sanctioned violence. Many Muslim women in Muslim-ruled countries lack some or all of these basic human rights.

 

[.lava]

Yes, I know, and it's great. Yes, of course you should be heard. Haven't I asked you many, many questions in this thread, specifically asking to hear from you? You seem to interpret disagreement as censorship--why would you do that? As Muslim women, doesn't it bother you that you could be raped by a Muslim man, he would be pardoned, and you would be punished, all by Muslim scholars and authorities?

if you are asking me this question, don't tell me you hear me or understand me.

all by scholars and authorities?...you may want to believe that but if that was true i would not exist


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[cottage]

Yes, I know that.

That's why the use of the words "Islamic Justice" in the title is so inappropriate at best, and offensive at worst.

The term 'Islamic justice' was perfectly appropriate to use because that is exactly what it was: justice dispensed in the name of Islam. Your offence is misplaced and should be directed at those who interpret and apply justice in that way, instead of attacking those who dare to report it.

 

[.lava]

I think part of what .lava and others are reacting to is the implication that Western powers should intervene in foreign countries to solve these kinds of problems. This is an absurd idea however and I don't think it was Autodidact's intention to suggest that as a solution.

truth is Autodidact can not change anything in Muslim nations, she can not offer a solution either. there is a war on Islam to destroy Muslim nations. this is a fact every single Muslim is aware of but don't you see it? so whenever someone like Autodidact speaks against Islam, though she might have good intentions like wishing cruelty to end, she is not helping Muslims. another negative voice towards Islam only helps to support war.

long story short, Mr., once upon a time we had domestic problems, we still do but today we have bigger problems because now, not only ignorance we should fight against, we would have to fight for our lives and for our religion. i think we earned it. Muslims are/were killing Muslims, then some non-Muslim power comes along and kills both. Autodidact should face this fact. maybe then she can see why we react her attitude towards Islam. would you really try to heal a wound on your leg while someone pointed a gun onto your head? which one appears to be deadly to you? which one truly threatens your existence?


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[sonofskeptish]

Alphabetically, The world’s 9 "Top" Islamic Countries by % of Population (all 99%+ Muslim)...

Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

Azerbaijan
http://www.hrw.org/en/world-report-2010/azerbaijan

Iran
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Iran_typifies_Islamic_justice,_says_chief_judicial_official

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE13/036/2004

Iraq
http://wap.cbsnews.com/site?sid=cbsnews&pid=sections.detail&section=sections&catId=TOP&storyId=4297071

Mauritania
http://www.wluml.org/node/4637

Morocco
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/alerts/4635-Alert-Morocco-Dozens-of-Islamic-schools-shut-down

Tunisia
http://www.icj.org/IMG/TUNISIA.pdf

Western Sahara
http://www.france24.com/en/20091212-western-sahara-spain-morocco-situation-aminatou-haidar-al-qaeda

Yemen
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Even-Muslims-debate-the-justice-of-executing-apostates-5859.html

 

[YmirGF]

truth is Autodidact can not change anything in Muslim nations, she can not offer a solution either.

Of course she can't do either, but the sad reality is that Muslims also have their hands bound and are virtually powerless to effect change. Remember, the vast majority of Muslims are against your somewhat liberal thinking. I doubt they will go down without a fight.

there is a war on Islam to destroy Muslim nations.

Perception IS reality, .lava. Heck, that perception doesn't even have to be especially realistic. Sadly, this "siege mentality" has been a hallmark of Islam since the earliest days of your Prophet.

this is a fact every single Muslim is aware of but don't you see it?

Of course, some of us can see it, .lava. The perception is what allows the victim to strike out in self-defense. Heaven forbid that Muslims look at their own actions as being the source of these conflicts.

so whenever someone like Autodidact speaks against Islam, though she might have good intentions like wishing cruelty to end, she is not helping Muslims. another negative voice towards Islam only helps to support war.

And so the victim mentality, the siege mentality continues directly supporting the paranoid Islamic worldview.

long story short, Mr., once upon a time we had domestic problems, we still do but today we have bigger problems because now, not only ignorance we should fight against, we would have to fight for our lives and for our religion. i think we earned it. Muslims are/were killing Muslims, then some non-Muslim power comes along and kills both.

Perhaps we should just sit back and watch you folks duke it out. It doesn't exactly enhance the absurd notion of Islam being "the religion of peace", now, does it?

Autodidact should face this fact. maybe then she can see why we react her attitude towards Islam.

You are correct in that Auto does not understand the siege mentality that exists in Islamic thought. As said earlier, it is a central aspect of Islamic dogma where Islam is allowed to defend itself because everyone has always been out to get Islam. It would actually be fairly laughable if it wasn't so serious and lives were not at stake.

would you really try to heal a wound on your leg while someone pointed a gun onto your head? which one appears to be deadly to you? which one truly threatens your existence?

It's a ridiculous comparison, as the gun could simply be withdrawn, but the wound could bleed out or become infected killing you slowly. I would look at it differently, myself.

First, I would search my thinking and beliefs to try to figure out what I was doing was drawing such aggression to me. What was making people attack me? What I am doing to bring on such negative experiences? In some ways, if two gang members are locked in a death match and the local police arrive and put guns to their heads, should the gang members then feel victimized because they drew the attention of the police? Should the police simply let them work out their differences and clean up the mess after the festivities were over?

It is almost as if, in your view, the two gang members were fully justified in joining forces to repel the police, who were drawn by their fighting in the first place. Wouldn't it be more logical for the combatants to lay down their arms and just surrender?

 

[Autodidact]

if you are asking me this question, don't tell me you hear me or understand me.

all by scholars and authorities?...you may want to believe that but if that was true i would not exist


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Sorry, could you rephrase this? Didn't quite get it. Thanks.

 

[Autodidact]

truth is Autodidact can not change anything in Muslim nations, she can not offer a solution either. there is a war on Islam to destroy Muslim nations. this is a fact every single Muslim is aware of but don't you see it? so whenever someone like Autodidact speaks against Islam, though she might have good intentions like wishing cruelty to end, she is not helping Muslims. another negative voice towards Islam only helps to support war.

long story short, Mr., once upon a time we had domestic problems, we still do but today we have bigger problems because now, not only ignorance we should fight against, we would have to fight for our lives and for our religion. i think we earned it. Muslims are/were killing Muslims, then some non-Muslim power comes along and kills both. Autodidact should face this fact. maybe then she can see why we react her attitude towards Islam. would you really try to heal a wound on your leg while someone pointed a gun onto your head? which one appears to be deadly to you? which one truly threatens your existence?


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Thank you, this greatly helps me to see the situation from your point of view.

However, who is attacking your right to practice Islam? Where?

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh, O.K. So your question is why did it take a while for any Muslims to join the thread? You'd have to ask them, but my first guess is that it's because I didn't put it in the Islam DIR forum.

Mine would be the use of "Islamic justice" in the title. It looked very offensive and inflammatory, even if that wasn't your intention.

Believe me: a thread such as this would have done just as poorly there as here.

 

[Riverwolf]

I would respond that as far as this issue, there is no comparison. The American jurisprudence system may not be entirely free from sexism, but it does not flog rape victims while letting their rapists go free. That is outrageous.

I agree. But we still have a long way to go before sexism fully disappears.

Maybe one day Islam will separate itself from governance. It shows no signs of doing so now, quite the contrary.

Some people assert that the problem with Islam is that, unlike Catholicism, it never went through a reformation.

Well, how long was Christianity in general around before the reformation, and how long has Islam in its present form been around?

The sexism itself is what we need to address; the laws are only a symptom, IMO.

No, there is no comparison. American women can vote, drive, get custody, wear what we like, travel freely, and lodge a rape charge, all without fear of criminal prosecution or state-sanctioned violence. Many Muslim women in Muslim-ruled countries lack some or all of these basic human rights.

And yet women are treated like junk from an early age, encouraged to "look pretty" and "fit the ideal body image" and "be a good housewife" and "marriage is your ultimate goal in life."

It is definitely an improvement, but in my eyes, not by much. Sure, the technical legalities have been somewhat fixed, but the cultural sexism isn't really any less prevalent now than it ever was.

 

[Riverwolf]

The term 'Islamic justice' was perfectly appropriate to use because that is exactly what it was: justice dispensed in the name of Islam. Your offence is misplaced and should be directed at those who interpret and apply justice in that way, instead of attacking those who dare to report it.

My offense is justified, because, as I said, it implies that all of Islam is like that, which (rightly) offends Muslims who equally believe it to be wrong and horrible. It's the same as accusing the slave labors carried out by some American-based companies as "American labor."

It basically paints Islam in the light of an evil force in the world that needs to be wiped out. Even if that wasn't the intention, it's the effect. It's the problem with using over-generalized statements.

I have no problem with reporting the incident (though I would have preferred multiple sources, including Muslim ones.)

 

[cottage]

My offense is justified, because, as I said, it implies that all of Islam is like that, which (rightly) offends Muslims who equally believe it to be wrong and horrible. It's the same as accusing the slave labors carried out by some American-based companies as "American labor."

It implies absolutely nothing of the sort! Your oversensitivity has misled you into such inferences.

It basically paints Islam in the light of an evil force in the world that needs to be wiped out. Even if that wasn't the intention, it's the effect. It's the problem with using over-generalized statements.

Wow! That's an over-generalisation if ever I've seen one. So now you're saying that to criticise an individual act carried out in the name of Islam, no matter how despicable, is an attack on Islam and on Moslems everywhere. Don't you think you would have made a better job of representing Islam in good light by roundly condemning what occurred and by disassociating yourself from those who advocate such vile practices? It is only individuals who are evil, not Islam.

I have no problem with reporting the incident (though I would have preferred multiple sources, including Muslim ones.)

I'm sorry but your oversensitivity has plainly got the better of your reasoning.

 

[.lava]

Sorry, could you rephrase this? Didn't quite get it. Thanks.

why would you do that? As Muslim women, doesn't it bother you that you could be raped by a Muslim man, he would be pardoned, and you would be punished, all by Muslim scholars and authorities?

that is unnecessary to ask. i was saying that if you ask me this question and if you sincerely do not know the answer then it means i was never clear enough for you to get me. and for the last part of your question...it is never all scholars and all authorities. specially in my nation (Turkey) majority would condemn injustice like that, as majority would condemn stoning a living creature. i have never known or experienced rape victim being punished in our history. so, in my previous post i tried to tell you that if it was really all scholars agreed on such a thing, people like me would not exist. obviously there are two kinds of teachers just like Qur'an says;

28:41 And We made them Imams who call to the fire, and on the day of resurrection they shall not be assisted.

21:73 And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;


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[Riverwolf]

It implies absolutely nothing of the sort! Your oversensitivity has misled you into such inferences.

Considering the subject matter, I think I have every right to be sensitive.

Wow! That's an over-generalisation if ever I've seen one.

So now you're saying that to criticise an individual act carried out in the name of Islam, no matter how despicable, is an attack on Islam and on Moslems everywhere.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm arguing against the use of the words "Islamic justice" to describe this.

Don't you think you would have made a better job of representing Islam in good light by roundly condemning what occurred and by disassociating yourself from those who advocate such vile practices?

It appears there's a cultural miscommunication here. A reaction that one raised in a certain culture expected was not given, because that culture reacts to such accusations in a different way.

It is only individuals who are evil, not Islam.

I agree. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing against the use of the phrase "Islamic justice" in this sense.

I'm sorry but your oversensitivity has plainly got the better of your reasoning.

I again say that my sensitivity on this matter is justified. Poor wording can cause even the soundest of arguments to collapse.

Do you think my analogy is correct or not? You have thus far failed to show how it is not.

 

[Commoner]

i have never known or experienced rape victim being punished in our history

What do you call this:

Turkey puts rape victims in the dock | World news | The Observer
http://intolerantfaith.blogspot.com/2008/12/turkey-kidnapped-rape-victim-to-be.html

You know, things aren't exactly rosy in Turkey either.

 

[.lava]

Thank you, this greatly helps me to see the situation from your point of view.

However, who is attacking your right to practice Islam? Where?

they consider Islam as a tool to be used against us. injustice of Muslims helps their cause. but please don't get me started on this one cos i feel really tired of the subject. these stuff you may have never heard before are the same stuff we have been dealing with for decades. in here almost everyone knows what Western really do in Muslim nations. there are way too many things you don't know about your governments (not just USA, also England, France, Germany...etc) but it is useless to talk today. it is best wait for them to confess. i believe the truth about their intention and what they have been doing for years with shinny covers would come out. now everything is up side down. most of Western call black "white" and white "black"


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