Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Autodidact]

Response: It would be you, me, and anyone else.

No, it's you who's saying they're not Muslims, not me. So you're the one making that judgment.

Now are you planning to answer my other questions or should I give up on talking to you?

 

[Autodidact]

Response: I would appreciate if you back up your claims with proof, like any courteous person. It's this sort of thing that makes talking to you redundant.

I am happy to. I will post any question(s) you have failed to answer. If you can show me where you did answer them, I will happily withdraw my statement and apologize. If you cannot, I expect you to do the same:

So basically, when someone tells me they're Muslim, I should be extremely suspicious of whether they're telling the truth? People-who-call-themselves-Muslim are not reliable or trustworthy?

around what percentage of p-w-c-t-M really are, in your estimation? Roughly?

 

[Autodidact]

wrong doings of Muslims is our problem. so i suggest you to deal with your own problems instead of ours. solve your own problems.[/quote Of course. Unfortunately, some of the problems we have to worry about are Muslims.

because it is never going to be you or any other non-Muslim to make Muslim nations a better place. only Muslims can do it.

Ding ding ding! Exactly!!! So exactly how are you planning to do that?

and just for the record, i would like to remind you that, under this thread, except for Fatihah, all the Muslims you talked and argued with are Muslim women. our voice should be heard even though we are not raped, don't you think? or do we have to come up with negative stories and thoughts just to be heard by you? i hope not

Yes, I know, and it's great. Yes, of course you should be heard. Haven't I asked you many, many questions in this thread, specifically asking to hear from you? You seem to interpret disagreement as censorship--why would you do that? As Muslim women, doesn't it bother you that you could be raped by a Muslim man, he would be pardoned, and you would be punished, all by Muslim scholars and authorities?

 

[Autodidact]

How about Village Justice?

No, there are villages here in Colorado where it doesn't happen, and cities in Yemen where it does, so the problem does not seem to be villages. The common thread is Islam. Why is it important to you to deny that?

Sorry, seeing as one of your links outright lied (either that or Maro is lying; not likely), I am disinclined to trust any Western news source reporting anything that happens in Muslim countries.

No, the link was to a U.N. report by an Egyptian woman lawyer, and maro agreed with what she said--there are in fact honor killings in Egypt. Doesn't that bother you?

 

[Autodidact]

How about we first focus on our own cultures' and countries' sexist injustices first, before pointing fingers at others'?

You know we have Muslims in our country, right? Who vote, and have the right to have their voice heard here, about what our justice system should be? We have even had honor killings here. It's important to speak out against these violent, anti-woman attitudes, period, wherever they are found. Muslim women are just as important and valuable as non-Muslim, and deserve to be protected and advocated for.

 

[Autodidact]

How about we first focus on our own cultures' and countries' sexist injustices first, before pointing fingers at others'?

I think part of what .lava and others are reacting to is the implication that Western powers should intervene in foreign countries to solve these kinds of problems. This is an absurd idea however and I don't think it was Autodidact's intention to suggest that as a solution.

No, not at all. This is a problem that Muslims have to solve, especially Muslim women.

Isn't this whole argument sort of ridiculous? Not a single person on this thread supports violence against women. So, we're all on the same side here. We're allies. We should be united. We shouldn't be worried about trying to blame a country or a religion, we should be worried about how to stop violence against women everywhere, starting with our own countries.

To respond to Autodidact:

I think human rights activists and progressives in Turkey, Afghanistan, and other countries already know the solution: grassroots political activism. You have to change cultures, overcome stereotypes, prejudices, and raise awareness of the problem. People in Turkey and other "Muslim" countries (obviously not everyone in these countries is Muslim) are already doing this, these battles take time because they are nonviolent political battles. Blacks in the United States didn't win rights and freedoms because a foreign power sent in special forces to wipe out the Ku Klux Klan. They won civil rights because they formed a coalition which embraced Christian and white supporters, even though the racists were predominantly Christian and white. It would have been counter-productive for atheists to argue that Christianity was a racist religion; it was better to simply say that some people are racist and many Christians are allies in the fight against racism.

It seems to me Westerners who support women's rights can help most by (1) tackling our own problems first, and (2) by listening to our allies in those countries. If there is something we can do to help -- like getting our government to put diplomatic pressure on their government -- let's let them tell us how we can help. They know their own countries best and they know what will help and what will not help.

Unfortunately, it seems to be getting worse rather than better, and the only thing that is helping is appealing to world opinion--as I am doing in this thread.

Then instead of defending Islam, Muslims should be seeking to change it. Otherwise, the rest of us who care about justice have no choice but to oppose it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Yes but by saying this is "Islamic justice" you are implying it applies to all of Islam. Clearly it doesn't. The common theme to racism in the U.S. was that it was perpetuated by whites. But you wouldn't call it "white justice", although in some sense that would be accurate. The point is not ALL whites were racist and why alienate potential white allies? If you specifically condemn this kind of violence as un-Islamic it seems to me it would have the effect of raising awareness and putting an end to the violence. If you say it is "Islamic justice" it does not stop the extremists and it discourages Muslims who support women's rights.

You made a good point when you said we have to take responsibility for our own actions, I agree, we should look at our own actions and when we call it "Islamic justice" we are not helping.

I don't disagree with your point that this is a problem in Islam, I am a white man and I admit racism was and continues to be a big problem among white men. But, again taking responsibility for our own actions, we have to frame the discussion in such a way that we support our allies instead of attacking them.

 

[DallasApple]

Can we get off the Islamic Justice bus and get to the meat?

The meat is that I dont care if its Islamic or whatever that you woudl MURDER a girl (or a man but never hear about that) for HAVING sex!!!

Cuz look even the raped ones cant "prove it" so they are KILLED or BEATEN for the fact they had sexaul contact.

That is SICK!!

Where are the young men that have sex or rape being beaten or killed?

Not that I would want that either..But WHY are they KILLING young girls and BEATING them savagely becaue they were raped or EVEN if they had consentual sex?

Its sickening to my stomach.

WAY

Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

Yes but by saying this is "Islamic justice" you are implying it applies to all of Islam. Clearly it doesn't. The common theme to racism in the U.S. was that it was perpetuated by whites. But you wouldn't call it "white justice", although in some sense that would be accurate.

Of course I would; that's exactly what it was. That doesn't mean that 100% of white people supported it, but that it was a racist, white sytem perpetrated by whites on blacks.

The point is not ALL whites were racist and why alienate potential white allies?

Speaking as one, calling it what it is never alienated me.

If you specifically condemn this kind of violence as un-Islamic it seems to me it would have the effect of raising awareness and putting an end to the violence. If you say it is "Islamic justice" it does not stop the extremists and it discourages Muslims who support women's rights.

Yes, I agree. Of course, as a non-Muslim, it would be presumptuous to tell Muslims what is and is not Islamic.

You made a good point when you said we have to take responsibility for our own actions, I agree, we should look at our own actions and when we call it "Islamic justice" we are not helping.

I beg to differ.

I don't disagree with your point that this is a problem in Islam, I am a white man and I admit racism was and continues to be a big problem among white men. But, again taking responsibility for our own actions, we have to frame the discussion in such a way that we support our allies instead of attacking them.

Believe me, I support Muslim women in the efforts to change this. I even wrote an article about it?

Sugar-coating the facts doesn't help either. ITt's not a Christian, western, Bangladeshi or village problem. It's an Islamic problem, and Islam has to solve it.

 

[Fatihah]

No, it's you who's saying they're not Muslims, not me. So you're the one making that judgment.

Now are you planning to answer my other questions or should I give up on talking to you?

Response: I've answered your questions.

 

[Fatihah]

I am happy to. I will post any question(s) you have failed to answer. If you can show me where you did answer them, I will happily withdraw my statement and apologize. If you cannot, I expect you to do the same:

Response: Now how was I to
know if those questions were posed to me if you don't say so? See the difficulty? Notice, when my post is directed to someone, it's headed with, "response", then the person's name. The questions in your post have no such heading. Perhaps next time, when your question is directed to a particular person, simply say so.

As for your questions, if you want to know a true muslim, you first study the qur'an and sunnah. Those who follow both with good intentions are muslims. As for your second question, I have no idea what is being said. If you would clarify, I can perhaps address you better.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: Now how was I to
know if those questions were posed to me if you don't say so? See the difficulty? Notice, when my post is directed to someone, it's headed with, "response", then the person's name. The questions in your post have no such heading. Perhaps next time, when your question is directed to a particular person, simply say so.

And now you have fully demonstrated your dishonesty as well as your inability to admit error. Here's the post:

But Fatihah, you're the one accusing your fellow people-who-call-themselves-Muslim of making false statements about themselves.

So basically, when someone tells me they're Muslim, I should be extremely suspicious of whether they're telling the truth? People-who-call-themselves-Muslim are not reliable or trustworthy?

(emphasis added.) Somehow I didn't think you had the courage or honesty to just admit a mistake and apologize for it. Oh, and while you're at it, you can apologize for calling me a liar.

This is why talking to you is so tedious. First I ask the question. Then I ask you to answer the question. Then I prove to you that you failed to answer the question. It's really not worth the bother.

As for your questions, if you want to know a true muslim, you first study the qur'an and sunnah. Those who follow both with good intentions are muslims.

But isn't that exactly what the people who made this decision are doing--to the best of their ability? Isn't it arrogant to assume that you know and understand it better than they?

As for your second question, I have no idea what is being said. If you would clarify, I can perhaps address you better.

It's not that complicated. According to you, there are millions of people-who-call-themselves-Muslims, possibly the majority (you refuse to say) who are not actually Muslims. Why, you do not speculare. O.K., so when someone tells me they're Muslim, I should doubt that claim, correct? I should not rely on their claims about themselves?

 

[dust1n]

And a stellar job you're doing, too.

America's doing so much better!

 

[DallasApple]

WHY cant you just admit there is ERROR in the way of many claiming your beliefs?

There are quite a few it seems..Call them "wayward" or anything dont deny they are of the same religion as you.

You cant just say that anyone that claims Islam that does something wrong isnt a true Muslim..Thats cheating..

Love



Dallas
"

 

[dust1n]

WHY cant you just admit there is ERROR in the way of many claiming your beliefs?

There are quite a few it seems..Call them "wayward" or anything dont deny they are of the same religion as you.

You cant just say that anyone that claims Islam that does something wrong isnt a true Muslim..Thats cheating..

Love



Dallas
"

SHHHH! opcorn:

 

[Fatihah]

And now you have fully demonstrated your dishonesty as well as your inability to admit error. Here's the post:
(emphasis added.) Somehow I didn't think you had the courage or honesty to just admit a mistake and apologize for it. Oh, and while you're at it, you can apologize for calling me a liar.

This is why talking to you is so tedious. First I ask the question. Then I ask you to answer the question. Then I prove to you that you failed to answer the question. It's really not worth the bother.

But isn't that exactly what the people who made this decision are doing--to the best of their ability? Isn't it arrogant to assume that you know and understand it better than they?
It's not that complicated. According to you, there are millions of people-who-call-themselves-Muslims, possibly the majority (you refuse to say) who are not actually Muslims. Why, you do not speculare. O.K., so when someone tells me they're Muslim, I should doubt that claim, correct? I should not rely on their claims about themselves?

Response: And once again, you've demonstrated your inability to comprehend simple english. There is a such thing called "hypothetical questions". Your questions are phrased hypothetically. If you don't know how to formulate a question correctly, that's your problem, not mine. So instead of trying to make claims which makes absolutely know sense, try brushing up on your nearest elementary english book, and perhaps you won't have such a difficulty in future dialogues. There's no dishonesty on my part, just an inability to comprehend on yours.

 

[Autodidact]

First you said you answered the questions, when you didn't. Then you said it was because I didn't address them to you. Now it's because you claim they're hypothetical, which they're not. See why you have a credibility problem? So you don't know how to answer a hypothetical question, which it wasn't in any case?

Try to follow along--it's not that complicated. According to you, Fatihah, the people who made these decisions are not Muslim. You, according to your religion, are Muslim. According to you, some unspecified number of people who describe themselves as Muslim are not actually Muslim. That's not hypothetical, that's what you, Fatihah, assert. So, according to you, Fatihah, some people who call themselves Muslim are not reliable, and should not be believed, correct?

About what percentage of people who describe themselves as Muslim really are, in your opinion?

 

[DallasApple]

SHHHH! opcorn:

WHATEVER!!!

Do you have paremsian salt?

Love

Dallas

 

[Fatihah]

[quote Autodidact]
First you said you answered the questions, when you didn't. Then you said it was because I didn't address them to you. Now it's because you claim they're hypothetical, which they're not. See why you have a credibility problem? (End quote)

Response: No. I see you have an inability to comprehend. See why you have a credibility problem?

(Quote Autodidact)
So you don't know how to answer a hypothetical question, which it wasn't in any case?(End Quote)

Response: Again, another illogical question. A hypothetical question isn't supposed to be answered.

(Quote Autodidact)
Try to follow along--it's not that complicated. According to you, Fatihah, the people who made these decisions are not Muslim. You, according to your religion, are Muslim. According to you, some unspecified number of people who describe themselves as Muslim are not actually Muslim. That's not hypothetical, that's what you, Fatihah, assert. So, according to you, Fatihah, some people who call themselves Muslim are not reliable, and should not be believed, correct?

About what percentage of people who describe themselves as Muslim really are, in your opinion? (End Quote).

Response: Yes. Some people who call themselves muslims are not reliable and should not be believed. As for percentages, I don't know.

 

[Autodidact]

About what percentage of people who describe themselves as Muslim really are, in your opinion? (End Quote).

Response: Yes. Some people who call themselves muslims are not reliable and should not be believed. As for percentages, I don't know.

O.K. Do you call yourself Muslim?

(That wasn't so hard, was it? I understand that your personality does not allow you to admit error or to apologize, so I'll just take this as the closest you can get to such an admission.)