Response: Yes. I am a muslim. And to the contrary, I understand your vain desire to be right, no matter how illogical you'll claims are. I however believe that it will change someday. It's a process.
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Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
Response: Yes. I am a muslim. And to the contrary, I understand your vain desire to be right, no matter how illogical you'll claims are. I however believe that it will change someday. It's a process.
I think part of what .lava and others are reacting to is the implication that Western powers should intervene in foreign countries to solve these kinds of problems. This is an absurd idea however and I don't think it was Autodidact's intention to suggest that as a solution.
Isn't this whole argument sort of ridiculous? Not a single person on this thread supports violence against women. So, we're all on the same side here. We're allies. We should be united. We shouldn't be worried about trying to blame a country or a religion, we should be worried about how to stop violence against women everywhere, starting with our own countries.
To respond to Autodidact:
I think human rights activists and progressives in Turkey, Afghanistan, and other countries already know the solution: grassroots political activism. You have to change cultures, overcome stereotypes, prejudices, and raise awareness of the problem. People in Turkey and other "Muslim" countries (obviously not everyone in these countries is Muslim) are already doing this, these battles take time because they are nonviolent political battles. Blacks in the United States didn't win rights and freedoms because a foreign power sent in special forces to wipe out the Ku Klux Klan. They won civil rights because they formed a coalition which embraced Christian and white supporters, even though the racists were predominantly Christian and white. It would have been counter-productive for atheists to argue that Christianity was a racist religion; it was better to simply say that some people are racist and many Christians are allies in the fight against racism.
It seems to me Westerners who support women's rights can help most by (1) tackling our own problems first, and (2) by listening to our allies in those countries. If there is something we can do to help -- like getting our government to put diplomatic pressure on their government -- let's let them tell us how we can help. They know their own countries best and they know what will help and what will not help.
Priorities, comrades!
:clap Beautiful.
kai
ragamuffin
There is no overall authority in Islam so in Bangladesh they can and do enforce their version of Sharia, the same in Saudi, The same in Iran and elsewhere. I dont see how Muslims can do anything about it because to put it bluntly no one is in charge.
These laws are antiquated and clearly Patriarchal. Only time and progress and education will change this.
These laws are antiquated and clearly Patriarchal. Only time and progress and education will change this.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
O.K. So I should be suspicious of your claim, correct. Or is there something special and different about you, as opposed to all the other people who call themselves Muslim?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
But Fatihah, I was right. Would you like me to prove it to you AGAIN? Twice in the same thread?
And there are villages in India that do other atrocities, such as murdering female babies because the father wanted a son.
Obviously, village politics are not universal with each other.
Besides, I will not say it's a common thread in Islam, because Islam is not inherently political. I would be willing to accept that this is yet another problem with bringing religion into politics. The two have never gone well hand in hand.
The portion that Maro quoted did include Egypt as a country where rape victims are punished. If that was not the intended meaning of the article, whoever wrote it needs to retake College English. Poor wording has caused several problems in the world, as well as several misunderstandings. I know of a treaty that was botched because somebody used poor grammar. (I forget exactly what the error was.)
I know it may seem like I'm attacking something else because of a lack of any other arguments, but that really is a serious problem. If the woman did not intend to say that rape victims are punished in Egypt, then the article should have been better worded to clarify that. Such articles and reports should never be that cryptic. So, if this article was never meant to be that cryptic, how much more so the article that you have posted, which doesn't really give enough information to make a judgment on?
I'm not denying that Egypt does have honor killings, by the way, nor am I denying that there is a real mess in the Islamic world right now.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
You can't think of a single thing they can do? (I can, but set that aside.) O.K. then, since there's nothing that Muslims can do about this problem, I guess that non-Muslims are the only ones that can help?!?
Some things I can think of:
Write books. Speak out. Talk to their Imam. Support women. Vote for leaders who oppose these policies. Promote equal rights for Muslim women. Those are a few thoughts that occur to me.
Response: Depending on what your suspicious about.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Yes, there's a lot of discrimination against women all over the world. It's sickening.
That's not my understanding. My understanding of Islam is that part of full Islam is Islamic governance and Islamic law, including Islamic courts.
I found it pretty clear, but in any case, it's a long way from it either being wrong or maro saying it was wrong. I believe that so far not a single instance I have presented, or a single source or assertion, has been refuted or even really challenged. There is a worldwide problem with "Islamic" justice treating women with injustice. This is the case in many Muslim countries, especially those in which Islam is incorporated into the governance. I cannot think of any place that is applying sharia law in a way that does not discriminate against women--can you?
kai
ragamuffin
I am sure everything you suggest is being done but that has to filter through society and these societies are ruled by men its hard for women to take a stance and many don't get a vote . like i said it will all come in time . Its taken us in the west time for womens rights. It didnt happen overnight in my country. Countries like bangladesh need time too. some of these countries rural areas are literally hundreds of years behind the times social and technology wise.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Your claim that you are a Muslim. Do try to keep up.
So let's focus our efforts at home, and worry about the injustices done to women here, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.
Response: You can produce your alleged proof again if you like. And I'll simply debunk it again. Twice in the same thread.
kai
ragamuffin
sure --but this is an international forum.
Response: Likewise.
So why did Muslims choose to ignore you at first?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Wow, you're really something. First I ask you the question. Then I ask you to answer the question. Then I prove that you failed to answer the question. Then you answer the question. Now you want me to once again prove that you failed to answer the question? Give me a break. Frankly, I doubt that anyone else is following this infantile competition, or I would ask their opinion. I can't be bothered.
In any case, as a person who calls himself Muslim, you cannot be relied on, according to you, and you have amply demonstrated as much.
I think I'll take a break from you; it's too much work for so little substance.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I'm concerned about all women (and men), not just American women. I'm also concerned about the effect of Muslim voters here in America.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I'm sorry, I got lost. What did I beg to differ about again?
Including here at home. Let's focus our efforts here, first.
Early Roman Catholicism was the same way. They seem to be getting along just fine separate from politics these days.
I don't really know much about law in general. Politics was never my strong point.
Besides, even if we do fix the Sharia laws in Muslim countries; that won't change anything at first. Just like the old sexism is still prevalent in America, as is racism, sexism among Muslims will continue for centuries after Islam has no say in politics.