Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[maro]

maro, read. No one said they did. What was reported about Egypt was a problem with honor killings.

Your link claims that rape victims are being killed in those countries , Auto

In countires such as Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Yemen, Morocco and other Mediterranean and Gulf countries, rape victims, women suspected of engaging in premarital sex, and women accused of adultery are murdered by their relatives – the violation of a woman’s chastity is seen as an affront to the family’s honor.

 

[DallasApple]

Here is another thing I want to say..

What I mean is besides the rapist gets to walk off free when he should be punished.Why is the sympathy of these girls being stoned and whipped and put to death ony if the girl was raped?

What happens to the girls that have consentual sex and are caught? You cant tell me for one second the only girls/young women over there that have had any sexual contact are rape victims.I dont believe it.

Why are these stories always about a girl raped?

Young men and women will fall in love...and some of them will sneak behind the shed and make love.YES girls will do that volunatarily.

What happens to them?

Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

Response: Whomever makes the decision. That can be anyone. In islam, you are entitled to make decisions.

Well, in this case, isn't that you?

 

[Autodidact]

Response: Your question has been answered twice now. Did no one ever tell you that lying or making assumtions of someone without proof is rude?

*sigh* talking with you is so wearing. I have asked you questions which you have not bothered to answer. If you like I will repost them. In future I would appreciate it if you would just respond without me having to ask you to, like any courteous person.

If you need me to prove that you ignored my questions I will be happy to do so, if you will then apologize and stop doing it in future.

It's this sort of thing that makes talking with you too tiring to bother with.

 

[Autodidact]

it is not our business to decide who's good or better Muslim.

Fatihah seems to differ with you. Maybe you should address him.

let me give an example, Autodidact. in your nation there are rules and laws to make society secure place. but some people would not care for laws, commit crime but they are still part of your society. in Islam also there are rules and laws. it is a social system to make society secure place. but not every Muslim would act upon every single rule. they either don't care or they chose what is easier for them to do. i can not know their reasons. people have weaknesses and ignorance is not rare. but these people are still Muslims just like criminals or ignorant and maybe careless people of your nation are still citizens of your nation. you can not come up and say this or that person is not real American because he does not care for traffic lights. they are part of whole community and people are responsible of what they do, but that's another issue

The person who is saying these people are not Muslim is named Fatihah, not Autodidact.

 

[Autodidact]

How do the words "Islamic justice" NOT imply that these events are normal in Islam? The two words are basically a two word summary of "this is the kind of justice Islam has."

And in reality--it is. That's my point. An actual Islamic country delegated actual Islamic justice to an actual Islamic village council who made this actual decision in accord with actual Sharia law. That doesn't mean it's right, but yes, it does mean it's normal in Islam.

Further, I easily found many more cases of the exact same thing, all from Islamic courts in Islamic countries.

What do you call it, Chinese justice?

 

[Autodidact]

yea...that's one side of it. also there are some authorities in Muslim nations who give Western people reasons to hate Islam because they represent Islam and they are unjust. i acknowlegde this situation


.

There are a LOT of authorities in a LOT of Muslim nations that do this. And thank you for acknowledging it--I appreciate that.

I'm not saying this is the way Islam has to be, just the way it is.

What is the solution?

 

[YmirGF]

The person who is saying these people are not Muslim ...

'tis a veritable Pandora's box.

 

[Autodidact]

This was not Islamic law, but an perverse interpretation of justice, applied in the name of Islam.

Many Muslims. I'm not trying to assert that "real" Islam, whatever that may be, in some ideal abstract sense, requires this. What I'm saying is that it is actually going on, in real courts. The important issue, to me, is not what this does to the image of Islam. The important issue is that Muslim women are suffering under this kind of injustice. I wish Muslims here and elsewhere were more concerned about this and less about what image it causes in the West.

In short, the way to fix your image is to fix your actions. When these things stop happening, we will stop thinking you have a sexist, oppressive religion.

 

[Autodidact]

This was not Islamic law, but an perverse interpretation of justice, applied in the name of Islam.

Your link claims that rape victims are being killed in those countries , Auto

It's a list. Obviously who gets killed in what countries differs. In all of the countries together, all of those poor women get murdered. And THAT'S what's important. Muslims are murdering other innocent Muslims in the name of Allah and that's sickening. More sickening is that it takes an atheist to point it out. And most sickening of all is that all the Muslims here care about is whether that is seen as "True Islam," whatever the heck that is, not the fact that this evil is being perpetrated.

In any case, you agree with me and that report that honor killings happen in Egypt. That is is grotesque and horrible. What is the solution?

 

[Autodidact]

The obvious impact of this Injustice System is that victims of rape will choose not to report it. And the result of that is that men have a license to rape without fear of punishment. That is a very bad situation for all the Muslims that live in these countries, male and female.

So--what can be done about this problem?

And what is it about Islam and Muslim governance that makes it happen?

Again, from the point of view of an atheist from the U.S., the one lesson it drives home is that I should do everything I can to limit Muslim government from coming into existence and exerting control. It seems to me that you would want to prevent that view from taking hold.

I really don't care if you call it "Islam" or people-who-call-themselves-Muslim, as Fatihah prefers. Since I can't tell them apart, it forces me to combat whichever, in order to protect Muslim women from being oppressed in this horrible way.

Unless you have a better suggestion?

 

[DallasApple]

I do think its slighlty on the arrogant side to say they arent even Muslims at all.

You could just say they are bad people who are Muslims which is the damned truth.

There wouldnt be so many rules and laws about being a good Muslim or Christian (or any religion) if they were all pristine and perfect to start with .

Look! There are a bunch of disapointments and f-ups and mean people and such.

What is chilling though is that the f-ups seem to be girls having sex.(LORD HELP US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Love

Dallas

 

[Fatihah]

Well, in this case, isn't that you?

Response: It would be you, me, and anyone else.

 

[Fatihah]

*sigh* talking with you is so wearing. I have asked you questions which you have not bothered to answer. If you like I will repost them. In future I would appreciate it if you would just respond without me having to ask you to, like any courteous person.

If you need me to prove that you ignored my questions I will be happy to do so, if you will then apologize and stop doing it in future.

It's this sort of thing that makes talking with you too tiring to bother with.

Response: I would appreciate if you back up your claims with proof, like any courteous person. It's this sort of thing that makes talking to you redundant.

 

[.lava]

The obvious impact of this Injustice System is that victims of rape will choose not to report it. And the result of that is that men have a license to rape without fear of punishment. That is a very bad situation for all the Muslims that live in these countries, male and female.

So--what can be done about this problem?

And what is it about Islam and Muslim governance that makes it happen?

Again, from the point of view of an atheist from the U.S., the one lesson it drives home is that I should do everything I can to limit Muslim government from coming into existence and exerting control. It seems to me that you would want to prevent that view from taking hold.

I really don't care if you call it "Islam" or people-who-call-themselves-Muslim, as Fatihah prefers. Since I can't tell them apart, it forces me to combat whichever, in order to protect Muslim women from being oppressed in this horrible way.

Unless you have a better suggestion?

wrong doings of Muslims is our problem. so i suggest you to deal with your own problems instead of ours. solve your own problems. because it is never going to be you or any other non-Muslim to make Muslim nations a better place. only Muslims can do it. we've seen enough of what Western could do for Muslims. you might wish for our goodness, you may pray for it and i would respect that. in case you guys manage to end rape, oppression, harrassment and injustice in USA altogether, then i could accept your nation as an ideal society and i would gladly follow you and if not, except for your emotions over this kind of injustice, there is nothing i could care about.

and just for the record, i would like to remind you that, under this thread, except for Fatihah, all the Muslims you talked and argued with are Muslim women. our voice should be heard even though we are not raped, don't you think? or do we have to come up with negative stories and thoughts just to be heard by you? i hope not



.

 

[Riverwolf]

And in reality--it is. That's my point. An actual Islamic country delegated actual Islamic justice to an actual Islamic village council who made this actual decision in accord with actual Sharia law. That doesn't mean it's right, but yes, it does mean it's normal in Islam.

Further, I easily found many more cases of the exact same thing, all from Islamic courts in Islamic countries.

What do you call it, Chinese justice?

How about Village Justice?

Sorry, seeing as one of your links outright lied (either that or Maro is lying; not likely), I am disinclined to trust any Western news source reporting anything that happens in Muslim countries.

 

[Riverwolf]

What is the solution?

How about we first focus on our own cultures' and countries' sexist injustices first, before pointing fingers at others'?

 

[Smoke]

wrong doings of Muslims is our problem. so i suggest you to deal with your own problems instead of ours. solve your own problems. because it is never going to be you or any other non-Muslim to make Muslim nations a better place. only Muslims can do it.

And a stellar job you're doing, too.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

wrong doings of Muslims is our problem. so i suggest you to deal with your own problems instead of ours. solve your own problems. because it is never going to be you or any other non-Muslim to make Muslim nations a better place. only Muslims can do it.

Or non-Muslims living in that country, like Turks in Turkey, Iraqis in Iraq, etc. right?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think part of what .lava and others are reacting to is the implication that Western powers should intervene in foreign countries to solve these kinds of problems. This is an absurd idea however and I don't think it was Autodidact's intention to suggest that as a solution.

Isn't this whole argument sort of ridiculous? Not a single person on this thread supports violence against women. So, we're all on the same side here. We're allies. We should be united. We shouldn't be worried about trying to blame a country or a religion, we should be worried about how to stop violence against women everywhere, starting with our own countries.

To respond to Autodidact:

I think human rights activists and progressives in Turkey, Afghanistan, and other countries already know the solution: grassroots political activism. You have to change cultures, overcome stereotypes, prejudices, and raise awareness of the problem. People in Turkey and other "Muslim" countries (obviously not everyone in these countries is Muslim) are already doing this, these battles take time because they are nonviolent political battles. Blacks in the United States didn't win rights and freedoms because a foreign power sent in special forces to wipe out the Ku Klux Klan. They won civil rights because they formed a coalition which embraced Christian and white supporters, even though the racists were predominantly Christian and white. It would have been counter-productive for atheists to argue that Christianity was a racist religion; it was better to simply say that some people are racist and many Christians are allies in the fight against racism.

It seems to me Westerners who support women's rights can help most by (1) tackling our own problems first, and (2) by listening to our allies in those countries. If there is something we can do to help -- like getting our government to put diplomatic pressure on their government -- let's let them tell us how we can help. They know their own countries best and they know what will help and what will not help.

Priorities, comrades!