Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Sahar]

I get your point Mr. Spinkles

The ideal muslim society i believe in is the one that allows women to be eduacted ,to work ,to drive ,to have financial indepenadance and free speech...etc. I don't believe in the freedom of drinking or adultery neither for women ,nor for men.
Every society has its laws and norms , and there is no way we are going to borrow our standars from someone else .
in the words you quoted , i believe i spoke for the majority of my muslim sisters....and those who disagree are free to go where they can enjoy whatever lifestyle that appeals to them...It's a big diverse world

Ha ha ha, well said.

 

[.lava]

Girls are not the only ones who are going to be punished ,lava....but men as well....it takes a man and a woman to committ adultery ,right ?....and both are going to be punished

in theory, yes. according to Qur'an male and female are equally responsible as Muslims. but for some reason, even though it is adultery they punish, we do not get to see the male adulterous being punished.

also, Qur'an does not say anything about death penalthy for adultery. the only death penalthy in Qur'an is for people who kills or tries to kill messengers of God. i don't understand why Muslim nations apply something that does not exist in Qur'an. i also do not understand why hadith books should provide different punishment than Qur'an. why would Muslims pay more attention to hadith books than Qur'an?


.

 

[Fatihah]

Disturbing but not surprising when your prophet and role model behaves like this...

Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides

Response: Who's prophet is that? Luckily, muslims have nothing to worry about, for the prophet of islam is nothing like the Muhammad in the link. Perhaps that Muhammad can learn from the Prophet Muhammad (saw).

 

[gnostic]

But what Im saying is the the one that committs adultery that beocmes pregnant might claim rape.

In fact the ones that are actually raped might not "try and do the right thing" because its impossible by any reasonable standards to prove anyway.Its hard enough in countries where the woman faces no possibble punishment for reporting.

IOW any unwed pregnant woman might claim rape as her best option to save face or possibbly recieve some sort of mercy.

This creates an enviroment for real rape victims to have little recourse and open game season for rapist to have their fun .

Its sad enough I agree that consential pre-marital sex carries a criminal charge ..that is what im saying it trickles down to rape victims.Because the standard of proof must be so high due to women possibly claiming rape to avoid the penalties and lessen the stigma of premarital sex.

So you every single woman would make false claim to rape, to avoid adultery and fornication. I hardly think so. Then I wouldn't want you judging the rape case.

Many rape victims even in western societies go unreported, because they already feel shame, but it is far worse in Muslim societies, because they would go after the victims, simply because she can't provide 4 bl#@dy "male" witnesses. Seriously, how many rape incidences would have 1 witness, let alone 4. The victims are already guilty in the eye of their stupid barbaric law.

Sorry, Dallas, but women generally at disadvantage in Muslim courts, because according to Islam, a man's words are 5 times more than any woman. Christians have acted in the same manner in past history, but are even worse than Muslims, because their bl@#dy excuse is that all women are to blame because of Eve. That's why I distrust all patriarchal Abrahamic religion when they interfere with laws and politics.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: I believe I speak for all muslims when I say "no". Not only are the laws not of islam, but they are injust and irrational to begin with.

You speak for all Muslims when you say that the laws adopted by a Muslim country to apply Muslim law are not Muslim? Is that really what you mean to say? Because that makes no sense.

Obviously, if all Muslims opposed these laws, no Muslims would have them.

 

[Autodidact]

yes ,dear..i disagree...No one kills the rape victims in my country...neither their relatives ,nor anyone else...they are viewd as VICTIMS..and everyone sympathize with them
as for the adulterous women ,yes ,they may be killed....may be...that's not the rule...and those honour killings has nothing to do with Islam...they are very rare...and almost restricted to certain social classes , as I have said before

maro, read. No one said they did. What was reported about Egypt was a problem with honor killings.

Honour crimes refer to the murder of a woman by her male family members for a perceived violation of the social norms of sexuality, or a suspicion of women having transgressed the limits of social behaviour imposed by traditions. This includes seeing or meeting a man even if this is only a suspicion or a gossip. Honor crimes include also a husband kills his wife whom he or other family members suspected her of adultery. It is difficult to estimate the overall number of honour killings that take place yearly in Egypt. An Egyptian report based on 1995 statistics counted 52 honor killings (out of 819 murders) reported.

Neither Shariah nor modern laws have appropriately penalized the practice due to the strong influence of the tribal system and popular beliefs about women's sexuality. In addition, modern penal codes and also the practices reinforce the notion that men have a "right" to punish women for improper sexual behaviour.

It doesn't mention rape victims. So you agree that honor killings happen--that women are killed because their male relatives believe they have transgressed the bounds of acceptable behavior. You also agree that women suspected of adultery are murdered.

So you agree with all the facts I've put forth, all while calling me a liar. Interesting.

You say that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam--yet they take place everywhere there are Muslims, and hardly anywhere where there are not. There certainly seems to be some association between honor killings and Islam. What do you think it is?

 

[Autodidact]

I believe this is extremely wrong....Rape can easily be proved by forensic scientists and without the need for four witnesses....don't they have a forensic department ,for God sake ?!!

I agree. Why, it's almost as if they didn't want to catch or punish rapists!

I get your point Mr. Spinkles

The ideal muslim society i believe in is the one that allows women to be eduacted ,to work ,to drive ,to have financial indepenadance and free speech...etc. I don't believe in the freedom of drinking or adultery neither for women ,nor for men.
Every society has its laws and norms , and there is no way we are going to borrow our standars from someone else .
in the words you quoted , i believe i spoke for the majority of my muslim sisters....and those who disagree are free to go where they can enjoy whatever lifestyle that appeals to them...It's a big diverse world

Well I'm not Muslim but I completely agree. btw you may be interested in Women's Islamic Initiative in Spirituality & Equity. I think you would find some kindred souls there. It seems that "Islam" as practiced today has wandered far from its more egalitarian roots, and is now--as practiced--one of the most sexist and oppressive religions in the world, and that's saying a lot. Frankly, if it's going to be saved, it's the women who will have to save it.

btw, no, many are not free to where they can enjoy anything. In some countries, women cannot travel anywhere without the permission of a male relative, and are not allowed to drive.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe this is extremely wrong....Rape can easily be proved by forensic scientists and without the need for four witnesses....don't they have a forensic department ,for God sake ?!!



I get your point Mr. Spinkles

The ideal muslim society i believe in is the one that allows women to be eduacted ,to work ,to drive ,to have financial indepenadance and free speech...etc. I don't believe in the freedom of drinking or adultery neither for women ,nor for men.
Every society has its laws and norms , and there is no way we are going to borrow our standars from someone else .
in the words you quoted , i believe i spoke for the majority of my muslim sisters....and those who disagree are free to go where they can enjoy whatever lifestyle that appeals to them...It's a big diverse world

the marriage contract can't be legal in Islam without the approval of both partners...there is nothing called forced marriage...it's not islamic ,on the first place...and it's no better than rape, IMO

Right on.

 

[Autodidact]

But arranged marriages do exist, even in parts of the Muslim world. How would you deal with a couple who were forcefully married and comitted adultery?

Also, how do you justify death as being a suitable punishment for something like adultery?

There's a big difference between an arranged marriage and a forced marriage.

 

[Fatihah]

You speak for all Muslims when you say that the laws adopted by a Muslim country to apply Muslim law are not Muslim? Is that really what you mean to say? Because that makes no sense.

Obviously, if all Muslims opposed these laws, no Muslims would have them.

Response: To the contrary, if those "alleged" muslims practice such laws, then they are not muslims, because such laws are not the teachings of islam. Thus the statement makes perfect sense and is very obvious.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: To the contrary, if those "alleged" muslims practice such laws, then they are not muslims, because such laws are not the teachings of islam. Thus the statement makes perfect sense and is very obvious.

Oh, I see, there are a lot of people going around saying that they're Muslim who are not really Muslim, is that right? So what's going on with all those people-who-call-themselves-Muslim--are they liars, or deluded, or what?

 

[Autodidact]

I have another question, Fatihah. What is the definition of a Muslim?

 

[Fatihah]

Oh, I see, there are a lot of people going around saying that they're Muslim who are not really Muslim, is that right? So what's going on with all those people-who-call-themselves-Muslim--are they liars, or deluded, or what?

Response: For the best answer, you would have to ask them. It could actually be a combination of many things, if you ask me.

 

[Autodidact]

But Fatihah, you're the one accusing your fellow people-who-call-themselves-Muslim of making false statements about themselves.

So basically, when someone tells me they're Muslim, I should be extremely suspicious of whether they're telling the truth? People-who-call-themselves-Muslim are not reliable or trustworthy?

What was your definition of a True Muslim again?

 

[Fatihah]

I have another question, Fatihah. What is the definition of a Muslim?

Response: A muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). The way to do so is by following the qur'an and the sunnah of the prophet.

 

[kai]

If there are four eye witnesses for adultery , and if the adultereous was a married person ,yes...but not by the relatives
i believe this is almost impossible unless it's practiced either in public or in a movie ,for example.

Can't people do whatever they like without avowing it ? Is that too much to ask for , I wonder ?

The "Yes" in your answer is what allows men to manipulate women in certain countries like Bangladesh. Its exactly this kind of law that leads to abuse.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: A muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). The way to do so is by following the qur'an and the sunnah of the prophet.

And who gets to decide whether another person is doing that or not?

 

[Autodidact]

btw, around what percentage of p-w-c-t-M really are, in your estimation? Roughly?

 

[Tiapan]

Surely this is a good example of why Sharia Law is perfect for western secularism.

I think not, isnt that why we separated religion and the state.

Give another century or two and the neolithic religious societies should hopefully evolve to join the rest of humanity. BTW that includes the US bible belt, as well as the taliban, and even Malaysia

Cheers

 

[Fatihah]

And who gets to decide whether another person is doing that or not?

Response: What do you mean by "who gets to decide"? In islam, all muslims are free to make decisions.