Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[gnostic]

I just find the courts with Muslim judges, the Muslim law-makers and Muslim law-enforcement to be completely and stupidly ignorant, with hatred for women.

If a woman, or girl in this case, had committed adultery would they be stupid enough to report adultery? They would hide such thing, instead of speaking and reporting to the police.

A rape victim on the other hand, would try to do the right thing by reporting to the police, to catch the rapist, instead the law turn against them (victims) instead of the rapists, is terribly inhumane and injustice. They (law/legal authorities) would rather believe the words of rapists than the victims.

 

[DallasApple]

I just find the courts with Muslim judges, the Muslim law-makers and Muslim law-enforcement to be completely and stupidly ignorant, with hatred for women.

If a woman, or girl in this case, had committed adultery would they be stupid enough to report adultery? They would hide such thing, instead of speaking and reporting to the police.

A rape victim on the other hand, would try to do the right thing by reporting to the police, to catch the rapist, instead the law turn against them (victims) instead of the rapists, is terribly inhumane and injustice. They (law/legal authorities) would rather believe the words of rapists than the victims.

But what Im saying is the the one that committs adultery that beocmes pregnant might claim rape.

In fact the ones that are actually raped might not "try and do the right thing" because its impossible by any reasonable standards to prove anyway.Its hard enough in countries where the woman faces no possibble punishment for reporting.

IOW any unwed pregnant woman might claim rape as her best option to save face or possibbly recieve some sort of mercy.

This creates an enviroment for real rape victims to have little recourse and open game season for rapist to have their fun .

Its sad enough I agree that consential pre-marital sex carries a criminal charge ..that is what im saying it trickles down to rape victims.Because the standard of proof must be so high due to women possibly claiming rape to avoid the penalties and lessen the stigma of premarital sex.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Response: I believe I speak for all muslims when I say "no". Not only are the laws not of islam, but they are injust and irrational to begin with.

You could not speak for "all Muslims" ..there is a nut or two in any bunch honey.I would however believe and hope as well that you are more representive of the feelings and beliefs of the majority of Muslims. ..Just trying to live in peace and raise your children..:yes:

Love

Dallas

 

[Mr Spinkles]

why do you assume that muslim women want to practice adultery or wear western clothes ?!!! THEY don't ,because they respect their own religion and identity

As for free speech and education , the MAJORITY of muslim women have them...and still we need more ,i admit.....however ,we can stand up for ourselves and our sisters...we don't need a liberator to *liberate* us from our religion and our hijab and make us dress in a fashionable western style !!!

I totally agree with that maro. I thought it might be of general interest to share this: I see girls and women who are wearing head scarves around my university all the time. I see a few at scientific seminars. I see them walking down the sidewalks with friends who are not wearing head scarves. Clearly they are getting an education, while maintaining their identity and requiring no "liberator" to help them. I'm pleased to say that I do not think anyone notices or cares that they wear head scarves.

One student, who appears in a photo without a head scarf, wrote an editorial recently in the student newspaper about her faith, what she stands for, how she feels about terrorists and extremists, and how she resents the stereotypes of Muslims perpetuated by the media. I found it to be a very educational and commendable article.

I have also met a few Muslim girls who do not wear head scarves, who enjoy beer, and who date non-Muslims and probably do not believe sex before marriage is a sin. So at the end of the day it's a big, diverse world out there and no one can speak for every single Muslim, not even a Muslim. The same is true of any group of people.

 

[.lava]

The difficulty here not4me is that these people do not believe they are misrepresenting Islam.

you can't know that



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[maro]

I believe this is the only statement I made about Egypt:

In countires such as Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Yemen, Morocco and other Mediterranean and Gulf countries, rape victims, women suspected of engaging in premarital sex, and women accused of adultery are murdered by their relatives – the violation of a woman’s chastity is seen as an affront to the family’s honor.

Does maro deny this statement?

According to the UN in 2002:
"The report of the Special Rapporteur ... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Persian Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in western countries such as France, Germany and the United Kingdom, within migrant communities."

Egypt: A number of studies on honor crimes by The Centre of Islamic and Middle Eastern Law, at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, includes one which reports on Egypt's legal system, noting a gender bias in favor of men in general, and notably article 17 of the Penal Code : judicial discretion to allow reduced punishment in certain circumstance, often used in honor killings case.
[wiki]

Here's a UN report written by an Egyptian woman lawyer.


Does maro disagree?

yes ,dear..i disagree...No one kills the rape victims in my country...neither their relatives ,nor anyone else...they are viewd as VICTIMS..and everyone sympathize with them
as for the adulterous women ,yes ,they may be killed....may be...that's not the rule...and those honour killings has nothing to do with Islam...they are very rare...and almost restricted to certain social classes , as I have said before

 

[Aquitaine]

yes ,dear..i disagree...No one kills the rape victims in my country...neither their relatives ,nor anyone else...they are viewd as VICTIMS..and everyone sympathize with them

as for the adulterous women ,yes ,they may be killed....may be...that's not the rule...and those honour killings has nothing to do with Islam...they are very rare...and almost restricted to certain social classes , as I have said before

Out of curiosity maro, do you believe it is justified for adulterous Women/Men to be killed?

 

[DallasApple]

yes ,dear..i disagree...No one kills the rape victims in my country...neither their relatives ,nor anyone else...they are viewd as VICTIMS..and everyone sympathize with them
as for the adulterous women ,yes ,they may be killed....may be...that's not the rule...and those honour killings has nothing to do with Islam...they are very rare...and almost restricted to certain social classes , as I have said before

I still think thats sad ..that no one goes punished for killing a woman for "adultery" .

I would say the same thing if Christian women were being murdered for having sex outside of wedlock.

I think in fact Jesus protected the woman that had been adulteress.Only anyone that hadnt never sinned was allowed to cast a stone on her.

Love

Dallas

 

[maro]

In Pakistan as the example, to prove rape, either confession of the accused or four male witnesses are required and when the raped victim fails to provide them, the rape case becomes changed to an adultery one and the courts conclude that she must have committed adultery.

I believe this is extremely wrong....Rape can easily be proved by forensic scientists and without the need for four witnesses....don't they have a forensic department ,for God sake ?!!

I have also met a few Muslim girls who do not wear head scarves, who enjoy beer, and who date non-Muslims and probably do not believe sex before marriage is a sin. So at the end of the day it's a big, diverse world out there and no one can speak for every single Muslim, not even a Muslim. The same is true of any group of people.

I get your point Mr. Spinkles

The ideal muslim society i believe in is the one that allows women to be eduacted ,to work ,to drive ,to have financial indepenadance and free speech...etc. I don't believe in the freedom of drinking or adultery neither for women ,nor for men.
Every society has its laws and norms , and there is no way we are going to borrow our standars from someone else .
in the words you quoted , i believe i spoke for the majority of my muslim sisters....and those who disagree are free to go where they can enjoy whatever lifestyle that appeals to them...It's a big diverse world

 

[DallasApple]

Rape can easily be proved by forensic scientists and without the need for four witnesses....don't they have a forensic department ,for God sake ?!!

Unfortunatley it cant.Not easily.Even if you can prove that "sex" happenned" you can not prove it was rape.

So then you have the added threat that if you CLAIM it and cant prove it YOU can be CHARGED with adulterery since you so much "admitted " to sex outside of marriage is a HUGE delima.

Love

Dallas

 

[maro]

Out of curiosity maro, do you believe it is justified for adulterous Women/Men to be killed?

If there are four eye witnesses for adultery , and if the adultereous was a married person ,yes...but not by the relatives
i believe this is almost impossible unless it's practiced either in public or in a movie ,for example.

Can't people do whatever they like without avowing it ? Is that too much to ask for , I wonder ?

 

[Aquitaine]

If there are four eye witnesses for adultery , yes .

i believe this is almost impossible unless it's practiced either in public or in a movie ,for example.

Can't people do whatever they like without avowing it ? Is that too much to ask for , I wonder ?

What if it was a forced/arranged marriage?

If you had some guy chosen for you to marry, would you not wish to break free and seek someone else whom you'd personally choose?

 

[.lava]

If there are four eye witnesses for adultery , and if the adultereous was a married person ,yes...but not by the relatives
i believe this is almost impossible unless it's practiced either in public or in a movie ,for example.

Can't people do whatever they like without avowing it ? Is that too much to ask for , I wonder ?

why is it OK? it is not from Qur'an then what makes you think it could be justified? and what if four males lie out of revenge or jealousy? do girls has to die because of words of men?


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[maro]

What if it was a forced/arranged marriage?

If you had some guy chosen for you to marry, would you not wish to break free and seek someone else whom you'd personally choose?

the marriage contract can't be legal in Islam without the approval of both partners...there is nothing called forced marriage...it's not islamic ,on the first place...and it's no better than rape, IMO

 

[sonofskeptish]

Thoughts? Especially from Muslim RFers?

Disturbing but not surprising when your prophet and role model behaves like this...

Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides

 

[maro]

why is it OK? it is not from Qur'an then what makes you think it could be justified? and what if four males lie out of revenge or jealousy? do girls has to die because of words of men?


.

Girls are not the only ones who are going to be punished ,lava....but men as well....it takes a man and a woman to committ adultery ,right ?....and both are going to be punished

as for the witnesses ,i believe there are conditions for them to fulfill ,if i am not mistaken...not everyone's testimony is accepted in court

 

[Aquitaine]

the marriage contract can't be legal in Islam without the approval of both partners...there is nothing called forced marriage...it's not islamic ,on the first place...and it's no better than rape, IMO

But arranged marriages do exist, even in parts of the Muslim world. How would you deal with a couple who were forcefully married and comitted adultery?

Also, how do you justify death as being a suitable punishment for something like adultery?

 

[DallasApple]

the marriage contract can't be legal in Islam without the approval of both partners...there is nothing called forced marriage...it's not islamic ,on the first place...and it's no better than rape, IMO

What Im saying is people can be "forced to consent"..And you are right..its no better than rape.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

But arranged marriages do exist, even in parts of the Muslim world. How would you deal with a couple who were forcefully married and comitted adultery?

Also, how do you justify death as being a suitable punishment for something like adultery?

There is no way to justify the death penalty for adultery..No way...Not Especially but sort of when you include unwed teenagers getting caught having "sex"..

Love

Dallas

 

[.lava]

Disturbing but not surprising when your prophet and role model behaves like this...

Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides

even yesterday's news transform something entirely different as they cross the ocean, and you believe stories being told about what happened 1400 years ago...brilliant...but beware, you might be the one who's living in dark ages



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