Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Autodidact]

Response: It relates to your recent post.

O.K., got anything to say about the topic of the thread?

 

[Fatihah]

O.K., got anything to say about the topic of the thread?

Response: No. The opening statement doesn't pose a narrow question. It's to broad.

 

[.lava]

I do not agree. The U.S. is a democracy. We do control our government. That does not mean any individual does, or that change is quick, but we can change government policies here. When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the majority of Americans supported that decision. (Of course, a lot of that is because they were lied to, but then, they voted for the liars as well.) In any case, I was not among them.

But in this thread, I'm not so much asking Muslims to actually prevent these actions, as just to give their opinion on them. Most of them preferred to be upset at me for calling them Islamic, despite the fact that at least one of them (.lava) admits that the majority of Muslims agree with them!

i did not mean to say most of Muslims agree with those who punish rape victim. i said most of Muslims would follow relgious leaders. we only have your words here Autodidact. as i said before, if a Muslim terrorize others, some people incline to call him Islamic terrorist. they would not say Iraqi or Arabic or anything, just Islamic. this is a trend Western media has started and Western adopted it as if it is natural. you are talking about injustice and you titled it Islamic justice. it sounds like you are certain. you see Islam as source of terror, injustice and cruelty. then why do you ask for opinions of Muslims? i don't know how many times i said this. i don't mind talking about incidents like this, injustice, wrong doers...ect but when people make it about Islam, you won't have me on your side. you won't have any Muslim on your side even if they oppose to same cruelty that made you start this thread. don't blame Muslims for it



.

 

[Thought Criminal]

i did not mean to say most of Muslims agree with those who punish rape victim. i said most of Muslims would follow relgious leaders. we only have your words here Autodidact. as i said before, if a Muslim terrorize others, some people incline to call him Islamic terrorist. they would not say Iraqi or Arabic or anything, just Islamic. this is a trend Western media has started and Western adopted it as if it is natural. you are talking about injustice and you titled it Islamic justice. it sounds like you are certain. you see Islam as source of terror, injustice and cruelty. then why do you ask for opinions of Muslims? i don't know how many times i said this. i don't mind talking about incidents like this, injustice, wrong doers...ect but when people make it about Islam, you won't have me on your side. you won't have any Muslim on your side even if they oppose to same cruelty that made you start this thread. don't blame Muslims for it

.

I refuted this already, by explaining that these are not merely crimes by Muslims, but crimes of Islam. They are doing horrible things because Islam tells them to. I gave the example of men beating and raping their wives, which Islam allows. You have offered no defense.

I am beginning to think that you have no argument. You just avoid unpleasant facts.

TC

 

[Riverwolf]

I refuted this already, by explaining that these are not merely crimes by Muslims, but crimes of Islam. They are doing horrible things because Islam tells them to. I gave the example of men beating and raping their wives, which Islam allows. You have offered no defense.

I am beginning to think that you have no argument. You just avoid unpleasant facts.

TC

And you've avoided showing any support that Islam itself teaches this kind of thing.

Provide a verse from the Qur'an, or a Hadith, or something from any other Muslim Scripture. Otherwise, your arguments have no weight.

 

[darkendless]

And you've avoided showing any support that Islam itself teaches this kind of thing.

Provide a verse from the Qur'an, or a Hadith, or something from any other Muslim Scripture. Otherwise, your arguments have no weight.

If it was un-Islamic, why do we hear about it so so much from Pakistan? Why is beating allowed in Pakistan under the Sharia laws put in place by the government to curb terrorism in taliban infiltrated provinces?

We've all seen pictures and news footage of women being beaten because they went out without the company of a male.

 

[.lava]

I refuted this already, by explaining that these are not merely crimes by Muslims, but crimes of Islam. They are doing horrible things because Islam tells them to. I gave the example of men beating and raping their wives, which Islam allows. You have offered no defense.

I am beginning to think that you have no argument. You just avoid unpleasant facts.

TC

the only unpleasant fact i know is hell.

i know about that verse, there are actually two verses in Qur'an about beating. to beat or even to lash people is never meant for physical harm and relationship between husband and wife does not need to get that point. if they are unhappy with each other, they should divorce.
Islam never allows rape. i don't know where you get the idea but it is absolutely false


.

 

[Riverwolf]

If it was un-Islamic, why do we hear about it so so much from Pakistan? Why is beating allowed in Pakistan under the Sharia laws put in place by the government to curb terrorism in taliban infiltrated provinces?

We've all seen pictures and news footage of women being beaten because they went out without the company of a male.

For the same reason we hear about these sorts of things in the West, committed by non-Muslims.

 

[Sahar]

maro, not4me, and any other Muslim reading this...

I understand that you do not support this. However, I have to ask, how do you explain it? If Islam is so clearly against it, how did it happen?

Also, what are your personal reactions?

honestly ,i don't know....i feel something is wrong...either the media is making this up or those are people with agendas...All i know is that no one can be so ignorant and stupid to do such an insane action in the name of islam

Actually Mayada, I was very skeptical about such news stories reported by the Western media but after reading that article by Asifa Quraishi: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/92701-islamic-sharia-stance-rape.html#post1875339 I knew that something is wrong with rape laws and their application and Pakistan is the focus of that article. This doesn't mean that all such stories are true or reported truthfully but there is something wrong in such countries.
In Pakistan as the example, to prove rape, either confession of the accused or four male witnesses are required and when the raped victim fails to provide them, the rape case becomes changed to an adultery one and the courts conclude that she must have committed adultery.
There is another problem according to her article:

Islamic criminal law acknowledges two categories of crime and punishment. The first, known as hudood, encompasses crimes specifically articulated by God in the Qur’an and through the hadith. Islamic jurisprudence acknowledges, however, that society may legislate additional crimes and punishments as needed. These societally legislated crimes and punishments are called "ta’zir." Ta’zir crimes can sometimes carry much lighter evidentiary or sentencing schemes than Qur’anic hudood crimes.63 In Pakistan, when the strict quadruple witness standard of proof is difficult to meet, it has become increasingly common for zina (adultery) cases to be prosecuted as ta’zir crimes, as opposed to hudood crimes.64 The Zina Ordinance includes a clause providing for ta’zir prosecutions of zina where there is less evidence: Zina or zina-bil-jabr (rape) liable to tazir.–
. . . [W]hoever commits zina or zina-bil-jabr which is not liable to hadd, or for which proof in either of the forms mentioned . . . [i.e. confession or four witnesses] is not available and the punishment of qazf (slander) liable to hadd has not been awarded to the complainant, or for which hadd may not be enforced under this Ordinance, shall be liable to tazir (P.L.D. 1979, 53; Major Acts 1992, 13).65
One seemingly positive aspect of ta’zir rape prosecutions in Pakistan is that the relaxed evidentiary rules allow women’s testimony, as well as various forms of circumstantial evidence not allowed in a hadd prosecution. However, the actual impact upon women in zina cases has not been positive. One writer states:
Even though this level of punishment permits the testimony of women, observers of Pakistan’s legal system have noted the bias against women victims and defendants. Courts appear to extend the benefit of doubt to men accused of rape. However, they set rigorous standards of proof to female rape victims who allege that the intercourse was forced. This gender bias has resulted in: (1) women who find it so difficult to prove zina-bil-jabr [under the hudood requirement of four male witnesses] that they find themselves open to the possibility of prosecution for zina [under the relaxed ta’zir evidentiary rules]; (2) men accused of zina-bil-jabr being subject to diminished charges [because the hudood evidence is not proved]; and (3) women who are wrongfully prosecuted and who are afforded restricted protection against such prosecution (Rahman 1994, 1000).

Thus, the relaxed evidentiary rules of ta’zir (corresponding to its lesser punishment) open the zina law to further manipulation by authorities, who may threaten a woman with prosecution for zina under ta’zir evidence if there is not enough proof to convict under hudood. If the woman is charging rape, this exacerbates the potential injustice of the situation. A woman might watch her rapist be acquitted for lack of four witnesses, but herself be subject to prosecution for zina under the looser evidentiary rules of ta’zir.

This phenomenon should sound familiar:
Those who defame chaste women, and do not bring four witnesses, should be punished with eighty lashes, and their testimony should not be accepted afterwards, for they are profligates (Qur’an 24:4).
This is the Qur’anic verse which started our zina discussion. It contemplates the possibility of adultery charges being brought against women upon less evidence than four witnesses, and condemns it as a grievous slander. By allowing prosecution for zina as a ta’zir punishment, and thereby loosening the evidentiary rules, the Pakistani Zina Ordinance has succeeded in contravening the very Qur’anic verse upon which it is based.66 In fact, zina is the only hadd crime for which the Qur’an sets out a specific punishment for not meeting its strict evidentiary rules.67 The Qur’an thus indicates that, unlike other hadd crimes, there can be no ta’zir punishment for zina. That is, for this one crime, if four eyewitnesses are not produced, the state and society must walk away and not speak of it again.68

But the Zina Ordinance goes even further in ignoring the Qur’anic injunction of all-or-nothing proof of zina. It includes a provision for "attempt" of zina, setting forth punishment of imprisonment, whipping, and a fine. Again, this directly contradicts the spirit of the Islamic law of zina. Both the Qur’anic verses quoted above and the hadith of Muhammad establish that unless the act was actual penetration, it is not punishable by the state.

 

[Sahar]

Why treating women unjustly? This is not something unique to Muslim societies.
Why some Muslims misrepresent Islam and go against its rules and teachings? I have no answer but all I know that we need something like revolution in the way we think and move, we need to return back to Islam and its just teachings to get out of our miserable condition.

 

[YmirGF]

Why some Muslims misrepresent Islam and go against its rules and teachings?

The difficulty here not4me is that these people do not believe they are misrepresenting Islam. No doubt they believe that are faithfully executing it in their daily lives - just like you do.

I have no answer but all I know that we need something like revolution in the way we think and move, we need to return back to Islam and its just teachings to get out of our miserable condition.

I agree, but given the admonitions about innovation in Islam, it is going to be a pretty tough fight. You know that both sides of the issue can validate their claims and that is the mind-numbing part.

 

[Autodidact]

Why treating women unjustly? This is not something unique to Muslim societies.
Why some Muslims misrepresent Islam and go against its rules and teachings? I have no answer but all I know that we need something like revolution in the way we think and move, we need to return back to Islam and its just teachings to get out of our miserable condition.

Some? A few? Many? Most?
Remember, these are majority Muslim countries we're talking about, not a few loners.

 

[kai]

Is this supposed to relate to the subject of the thread in some way?

I am beginning to wonder what this thread is actually about? theres a news report about an Incident in Bangladesh, we ask is it Islamic? Not4me posts a link to Islamic reference, it then turns to who is responsible for invading Iraq?

surely people can see that in a rural village in Bangladesh, the menfolk, make up their own rules, Islam or no Islam, To be honest some of the countries where these problems occur have a lot of modernisation to do. Step out of the urban areas and you go back in time, and in every country in the world, men at some point in time made up the rules to suit men.


Not wishing cause this thread to meander at all but did you know? In 2003 a Malaysian court ruled that, under Sharia law, a man may divorce his wife via text messaging as long as the message was clear and unequivocal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Women


My point is there is no one true Sharia extant at the present, just certain people calling their laws "Sharia" that's why its so different across the world.

 

[YmirGF]

My point is there is no one true Sharia extant at the present, just certain people calling their laws "Sharia" that's why its so different across the world.

Like Islam itself, Sharia law is a living example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

 

[DallasApple]

I think I understand and I sympathise with .lava too.

It sounds like a few large and powerful representiatives of government that are Muslim are leading/mislealding and convincing 900 million out of a billion Muslims that these laws are Islamic ...then there are the other 100 million that believe this is a lie and not Islamic.And these twist in what she believes is the real truth of Islam are clearly written for men to be in control over the women and to protect them(criminals clearly) from being punished for crimes against women.. and to keep the women opressed .

Love

Dallas

 

[YmirGF]

I think I understand and I sympathise with .lava too.

It sounds like a few large and powerful representiatives of government that are Muslim are leading/mislealding and convincing 900 million out of a billion Muslims that these laws are Islamic ...then their are the other 100 million that beleive this is a lie and not Islamic.And these twist in what she believes is the real truth of Islam are clearly written for men to be in control over the women and to protect them(criminals clearly) from being punished for crimes against women.. and to keep the women opressed .

Love

Dallas

In all fairness, .lava does have a tendency to pull her numbers out of thin air.

 

[DallasApple]

In all fairness, .lava does have a tendency to pull her numbers out of thin air.

Well I undertand that but it was useful to try and see where she is coming from and I doubt she's alone.

I wonder for instance how many remain silent in fear as well.I mean ones that live in the countries where this stuff is happening.

Like the one lady that protested that ( I believe) her 9 year old daughter have the "castration' that was required by law.That must be a very very difficult thing to try and go up against.

How many are prisoners? For instance I wonder how many homosexuals or parents of homosexuals who are adamently against the death penalty for them are scared into slilence?

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I guess what Im trying to say is it really the "majority" of Muslims (your average Joe Bloe) that want these type savage and barbaric laws that they and their families are subject too?

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Im wondering this too.With the punishment so severe and the shame and stigma attached to pre-marital sex although I do not like to call a girl a liar who claims rape how much more likely is she to claim that falsley in at least the hopes her family may have some sympathy for her and try and protect her?

This is purely specualtion but if I realized I had become pregnant out of wedlock from pre-marital sex in that country I would be so terrrified I might weight my odds and say I was raped.

Notice it said she was "quickly married after the attack" but then later it was "discovered" she was pregnant and thats when she divulged she was raped?

It could even be that her parents knew she was pregnant and tried to marry her off as quick as possible to avoid her being beaten or possiibly put to death.(why did she get married right after the attack(sounds like to a different man) and only get found out when she was confirmed pregnant after marriage?)

I mean think about it..Its scary enough to become a pregnant teeanger..But whats a girl to do that knows the consentual act of pre-marital sex is a high crime that discovers she is pregnant?

Now my brain is ticking.What would I do if I knew one way or the other I would be discovered because the pregnancy would evetnually tell the story?

And here is the sick twist..Do you think the law makers realize this ..that a girl in that position might try and claim she was raped rather than confess to the crime of "adultery" or "sex out of wedlock"?So then in turn they make it impossibble for her to prove if she was in fact raped because of the motive to lie?

Leaving the real rape victims with no recourse if she is raped?Because the laws are so stiff on consentual out of wedlock sex?

And now wouldnt that create a perfect enviroment for rapist to rape when they otherwise might have been deterred for fear of punishment?Leaving women with virtually no protection but to never leave the house without a male member of the family to watch out for them?Also wouldnt that create an enviroment where women are required to keep covered up for fear that she might be asking to be "raped" or "tempt" the rapist that apparently are allowed to roam the streets free?

Circle back around.Making pre-marital sex a crime puts women at higher risk to be raped.

Am I making sense?

Love

Dallas

 

[Fatihah]

I guess what Im trying to say is it really the "majority" of Muslims (your average Joe Bloe) that want these type savage and barbaric laws that they and their families are subject too?

Love

Dallas

Response: I believe I speak for all muslims when I say "no". Not only are the laws not of islam, but they are injust and irrational to begin with.