Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[kai]

Response: A muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). The way to do so is by following the qur'an and the sunnah of the prophet.

The problem is the differences in the definition of what is and what is not Sunnah. As there is no overall authority on Earth for Muslims to refer to people like those in Bangladesh and elsewhere do heir own interpretation. I discount Quran alone Muslims in that statement.

 

[Fatihah]

The problem is the differences in the definition of what is and what is not Sunnah. As there is no overall authority on Earth for Muslims to refer to people like those in Bangladesh and elsewhere do heir own interpretation. I discount Quran alone Muslims in that statement.

Response: The problem isn't what is sunnah. We know what the sunnah is. The problem is what people accept as sunnah. There's a difference.

 

[kai]

Response: The problem isn't what is sunnah. We know what the sunnah is. The problem is what people accept as sunnah. There's a difference.

I stand corrected, If theres no doubt about Quran and the only thing that causes disparity is what is or isnt Sunnah then Sunnah is where the problem is.

 

[gnostic]

There's serious flaw in your thinking, fatihah.

You say that you speak for "all Muslims" that what happened are not justice, and what they followed (law) is perhaps not Islamic.

Response: I believe I speak for all muslims when I say "no". Not only are the laws not of islam, but they are injust and irrational to begin with.

And I would agree with you that they were unjust and irrational part, and probably with it being un-Islamic part too.

But then you go on to say:

Response: To the contrary, if those "alleged" muslims practice such laws, then they are not muslims, because such laws are not the teachings of islam. Thus the statement makes perfect sense and is very obvious.

Are you saying that all Muslims have never act irrational or do unjust things? How can you actually claim to speak for all Muslims?

Because you did say later:

Response: What do you mean by "who gets to decide"? In islam, all muslims are free to make decisions.

This is contradictory to what you were saying earlier.

If all Muslims can decide freely as you say, then -

• they can decide or act badly as well as good,
• be rational or irrational,
• be just or unjust, etc.

But if you say they are not real Muslims or true Muslims, then how can say that any Muslims can decide freely?

And who decide who are true Muslims or not? You?

I am quite sure that these other Muslims, whom you claimed are not true Muslims, believe that Allah is their god, Muhammad is their prophet and the Qur'an is their scripture, just as you do. But for you to claim that they are not Muslims, without having met any of them, clearly indicate that you can't speak for all Muslims.

Also, unless you go to Bangadesh, in person, and truly look what their laws say and the circumstance of why they decide to prosecute the girl instead of the rapist, then you don't really know if they are following guidelines of the Islamic laws or not.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: What do you mean by "who gets to decide"? In islam, all muslims are free to make decisions.

Who decides which Muslims are "really" submitting themselves to the will of Allah?

 

[kai]

Who decides which Muslims are "really" submitting themselves to the will of Allah?

Allah does! there is no one else with the authority or ability to.


(that's my perception of it)

 

[Autodidact]

When Fatihah says "All Muslims," he doesn't mean all people-who-call-themselves-Muslim, or even people-who-are-considered-Muslim. He means True Muslims, which is to say Muslims whom Fatihah judges are truly subjecting themselves to the will of Allah, as Fatihah sees it. Thus Fatihah can easily claim to speak for all Muslims, meaning all people-who-call-themselves-Muslim and agree with Fatihah. The millions of people-who-call-themselves-Muslim who do not agree with Fatihah are, of course, not Real Muslims.

It's all crystal clear and logical.

Now, Fatihah, would you please answer the many questions of mine you have failed to address? Did no one ever tell you that ignoring the reasonable, polite questions of someone you're having a conversation with is rude?

 

[gnostic]

When Fatihah says "All Muslims," he doesn't mean all people-who-call-themselves-Muslim, or even people-who-are-considered-Muslim. He means True Muslims, which is to say Muslims whom Fatihah judges are truly subjecting themselves to the will of Allah, as Fatihah sees it. Thus Fatihah can easily claim to speak for all Muslims, meaning all people-who-call-themselves-Muslim and agree with Fatihah. The millions of people-who-call-themselves-Muslim who do not agree with Fatihah are, of course, not Real Muslims.

It's all crystal clear and logical.

I had terrible headache, when I woke this morning, probably caused by my bad sinus. My right eye was in pain too.

:cover:

Well, I must say, autodidact, that you've made it worse. Thanks, auto.

 

[cottage]

Simply the use of the two words: "Islamic Justice" in the title imply that this kind of thing is par for the course in Islam. If Muslims are ignoring this thread (so far, only one Muslim has more than one post here), then I can say that it was a very poor choice of words.

The words 'Islamic Justice' do not imply that the events were 'par for the course.' If the findings and sanctions were applied as justice, and done in the name of Islam, then that is the case and nothing further is to be implied. But we are perfectly entitled to condemn what occurred, and to be appalled by the perverse form of justice carried out in the name of a faith system, whether or not such adjudication and punishment is the prescribed norm.

 

[Fatihah]

There's serious flaw in your thinking, fatihah.

You say that you speak for "all Muslims" that what happened are not justice, and what they followed (law) is perhaps not Islamic.



And I would agree with you that they were unjust and irrational part, and probably with it being un-Islamic part too.

But then you go on to say:



Are you saying that all Muslims have never act irrational or do unjust things? How can you actually claim to speak for all Muslims?

Because you did say later:



This is contradictory to what you were saying earlier.

If all Muslims can decide freely as you say, then -

• they can decide or act badly as well as good,
• be rational or irrational,
• be just or unjust, etc.

But if you say they are not real Muslims or true Muslims, then how can say that any Muslims can decide freely?

And who decide who are true Muslims or not? You?

I am quite sure that these other Muslims, whom you claimed are not true Muslims, believe that Allah is their god, Muhammad is their prophet and the Qur'an is their scripture, just as you do. But for you to claim that they are not Muslims, without having met any of them, clearly indicate that you can't speak for all Muslims.

Also, unless you go to Bangadesh, in person, and truly look what their laws say and the circumstance of why they decide to prosecute the girl instead of the rapist, then you don't really know if they are following guidelines of the Islamic laws or not.

Response: I never claimed that a muslim can not act irrational or be just or injust. So there is no contradiction or flaw in my thinking. In islam, every deed is judged by it's intent. Secondly, the prophet says that when a muslim carries out a bad deed intentionally, they are not muslims at the time of the act and only become muslims again once they repent. So if someone intentionally disobeys Allah (swt), they are not a muslim. Because a muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). Thus intentionally disobeying Allah (swt) would be the opposite of submitting to Allah(swt), therefore such a person is not a muslim, until they repent and do good deeds and submit once again.

Then there are those who may do wrong without knowing. Such people are still muslims because there intent behind the act is not evil. So such a person who acts irrational or injust without intendinding to do so is still a muslim.

Then there are acts in which a child can see that the intent is evil. Rape and molestation and punishing people because they were raped are some of them. So those who commit them are clearly not muslims, and I don't have to meet them to know that.

 

[Fatihah]

Who decides which Muslims are "really" submitting themselves to the will of Allah?

Response: Whomever makes the decision. That can be anyone. In islam, you are entitled to make decisions.

 

[Fatihah]

When Fatihah says "All Muslims," he doesn't mean all people-who-call-themselves-Muslim, or even people-who-are-considered-Muslim. He means True Muslims, which is to say Muslims whom Fatihah judges are truly subjecting themselves to the will of Allah, as Fatihah sees it. Thus Fatihah can easily claim to speak for all Muslims, meaning all people-who-call-themselves-Muslim and agree with Fatihah. The millions of people-who-call-themselves-Muslim who do not agree with Fatihah are, of course, not Real Muslims.

It's all crystal clear and logical.

Now, Fatihah, would you please answer the many questions of mine you have failed to address? Did no one ever tell you that ignoring the reasonable, polite questions of someone you're having a conversation with is rude?

Response: Your question has been answered twice now. Did no one ever tell you that lying or making assumtions of someone without proof is rude?

 

[.lava]

But Fatihah, you're the one accusing your fellow people-who-call-themselves-Muslim of making false statements about themselves.

So basically, when someone tells me they're Muslim, I should be extremely suspicious of whether they're telling the truth? People-who-call-themselves-Muslim are not reliable or trustworthy?

What was your definition of a True Muslim again?

it is not our business to decide who's good or better Muslim. let me give an example, Autodidact. in your nation there are rules and laws to make society secure place. but some people would not care for laws, commit crime but they are still part of your society. in Islam also there are rules and laws. it is a social system to make society secure place. but not every Muslim would act upon every single rule. they either don't care or they chose what is easier for them to do. i can not know their reasons. people have weaknesses and ignorance is not rare. but these people are still Muslims just like criminals or ignorant and maybe careless people of your nation are still citizens of your nation. you can not come up and say this or that person is not real American because he does not care for traffic lights. they are part of whole community and people are responsible of what they do, but that's another issue


.

 

[sonofskeptish]

Response: Who's prophet is that? Luckily, muslims have nothing to worry about, for the prophet of islam is nothing like the Muhammad in the link. Perhaps that Muhammad can learn from the Prophet Muhammad (saw).

So many interpretations, resulting in so many muhammads, make Jack a skeptical boy.

And interpretations is all I have, because god decided it would be appropriate to communicate with me in ancient arabic and via messengers, some (or all) of whom are spouting lies... after all, at best only one group can be right.

Life is too short to worry about who's false claims are the real false claims, especially when there is nothing to suggest all of them are not false claims.

 

[cottage]

Response: I never claimed that a muslim can not act irrational or be just or injust. So there is no contradiction or flaw in my thinking. In islam, every deed is judged by it's intent. Secondly, the prophet says that when a muslim carries out a bad deed intentionally, they are not muslims at the time of the act and only become muslims again once they repent. So if someone intentionally disobeys Allah (swt), they are not a muslim. Because a muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). Thus intentionally disobeying Allah (swt) would be the opposite of submitting to Allah(swt), therefore such a person is not a muslim, until they repent and do good deeds and submit once again.

Then there are those who may do wrong without knowing. Such people are still muslims because there intent behind the act is not evil. So such a person who acts irrational or injust without intendinding to do so is still a muslim.

Then there are acts in which a child can see that the intent is evil. Rape and molestation and punishing people because they were raped are some of them. So those who commit them are clearly not muslims, and I don't have to meet them to know that.

Then we have consensus! It wasn't 'Islamic' and it wasn't 'justice.' It was an evil act, which Muslims should condemn and disassociate themselves from, in the same way that Christians should condemn and disassociate themselves from the clergy who abused children in their care.

 

[Riverwolf]

The words 'Islamic Justice' do not imply that the events were 'par for the course.' If the findings and sanctions were applied as justice, and done in the name of Islam, then that is the case and nothing further is to be implied. But we are perfectly entitled to condemn what occurred, and to be appalled by the perverse form of justice carried out in the name of a faith system, whether or not such adjudication and punishment is the prescribed norm.

How do the words "Islamic justice" NOT imply that these events are normal in Islam? The two words are basically a two word summary of "this is the kind of justice Islam has."

 

[.lava]

How do the words "Islamic justice" NOT imply that these events are normal in Islam? The two words are basically a two word summary of "this is the kind of justice Islam has."

yea...that's one side of it. also there are some authorities in Muslim nations who give Western people reasons to hate Islam because they represent Islam and they are unjust. i acknowlegde this situation


.

 

[cottage]

How do the words "Islamic justice" NOT imply that these events are normal in Islam? The two words are basically a two word summary of "this is the kind of justice Islam has."

This was not Islamic law, but an perverse interpretation of justice, applied in the name of Islam.

 

[Riverwolf]

This was not Islamic law, but an perverse interpretation of justice, applied in the name of Islam.

Yes, I know that.

That's why the use of the words "Islamic Justice" in the title is so inappropriate at best, and offensive at worst.

 

[DallasApple]

So you every single woman would make false claim to rape, to avoid adultery and fornication. I hardly think so. Then I wouldn't want you judging the rape case.

Many rape victims even in western societies go unreported, because they already feel shame, but it is far worse in Muslim societies, because they would go after the victims, simply because she can't provide 4 bl#@dy "male" witnesses. Seriously, how many rape incidences would have 1 witness, let alone 4. The victims are already guilty in the eye of their stupid barbaric law.

Sorry, Dallas, but women generally at disadvantage in Muslim courts, because according to Islam, a man's words are 5 times more than any woman. Christians have acted in the same manner in past history, but are even worse than Muslims, because their bl@#dy excuse is that all women are to blame because of Eve. That's why I distrust all patriarchal Abrahamic religion when they interfere with laws and politics.

You misunderstood me.I never said every single girl.Im talking about creating an atmoshhere where a woman out of desperation to try and keep from being put to death might be more tempted ...and besides that ..that wasnt the whole point.The point was that if "adultery" if that includes "fornication" is punishible by death..that would create an enviroment for a woman caught in that act to try and say she was raped..THEREFORE they made the laws virtually impossible to prove rape..THEREFORE women who are raped have no one to protect them.My ultimate point was the problem starts with making adultery and or out of wedlock sex a high crime is where the problem STARTS.

And you dont need to explain to me about what women go through and feel when they are sexually assaulted or raped.Im one of them.And I have had many conversatons and gotten to know other women as well ..that have been sexually assaulted as children and as women.

And I am also fully aware of how under reported it is here in the west.Even with decent laws ...

Love

Dallas