'Islamists'

[savagewind]

"We" is Islam. The text clearly uses "fire" as a metaphor of guilt and shame throughout, such as in 4:10.

Quote mining doesn't help your cause.

I don't have a case. It would be viewed as metaphor if the same threat (seeming threat) appeared once or twice. But there are more Quran scriptures where they appear, many more, so from this idiot's standpoint it can no longer mean metaphor. The rest I can't say.....

 

[savagewind]

Maybe all the believers in metaphoric violence is not violence should read the ambiguity thread. It's a great one!

 

[Willamena]

I don't have a case. It would be viewed as metaphor if the same threat (seeming threat) appeared once or twice. But there are more Quran scriptures where they appear, many more, so from this idiot's standpoint it can no longer mean metaphor. The rest I can't say.....

It would moreso be viewed as a metaphor if the same motif appeared throughout, and in other texts from the same culture.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Algeria has a majority Muslim population. They are calling these terrorist Islamist themselves.
They are not letting the western countries help in fighting them in any way.
Britain would like to help our own people, We have the necessary expertise in this area, but we were not even told of the Algerian forces attack.

 

[savagewind]

It would moreso be viewed as a metaphor if the same motif appeared throughout, and in other texts from the same culture.

Do you mean like the exact same words throughout? OK.

 

[Willamena]

Do you mean like the exact same words throughout? OK.

A motif is a pattern. Regardless of the words used, the same image is presented, in similar contexts and for similar effect.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Oh for god's sake, those are verses describing the punishments in hell, ...

Wait! Do you really mean to tell me that you don't mean to shower me with water like molten lead? Whew ... that's a relief. I guess I can put away my thermally insulated kippah. :yes:

 

[savagewind]

A motif is a pattern. Regardless of the words used, the same image is presented, in similar contexts and for similar effect.

And everyone should know it is metaphor that means something other than it says. So.... what does it mean?

I shall still say it appears to be dangerous metaphor. OK?

I was not responding to a debate about real vs metaphor like you'd like to believe (heaven knows why). I was responding to the comment that said

Violence is certainly not to be accepted as part of Islam

I was not arguing violence is accepted in Islam in this world. The scriptures though seem to say violence is accepted as a part of Islam in that world. How? I don't know. The words used in the metaphors are violent words, are they not?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Are these quotes real from the Quran or what?

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. 4:56
For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved. 6:70
If thou couldst see how the angels receive those who disbelieve, smiting faces and their backs and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning! 8:50
Hell is before him, and he is made to drink a festering water, Which he sippeth but can hardly swallow, and death cometh unto him from every side while yet he cannot die, and before him is a harsh doom. 14:16-17
We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations. 17:97-98
they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! 18:29
But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate. And they cry for help there, (saying): Our Lord! Release us; we will do right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. ... Now taste (the flavour of your deeds), for evil-doers have no helper. 35:36-37

Such mild quotes you've picked out as burning coals to the cherries; there are many worse ones advocating violence directly rather than your standard issue hell-wishing.

 

[Badran]

Who are the "we" mentioned?

The we is a "royal we", god speaking about himself in a glorifying manner. This is found often in the Quran.

 

[savagewind]

Such mild quotes you've picked out as burning coals to the cherries; there are many worse ones advocating violence directly rather than your standard issue hell-wishing.

We shall see

 

[beenie]

I don't have a case. It would be viewed as metaphor if the same threat (seeming threat) appeared once or twice. But there are more Quran scriptures where they appear, many more, so from this idiot's standpoint it can no longer mean metaphor. The rest I can't say.....

Who's the "idiot" you are referring to?

 

[savagewind]

Who's the "idiot" you are referring to?

Me. Who did you think it was? I said "this". This is me.

 

[beenie]

Such mild quotes you've picked out as burning coals to the cherries; there are many worse ones advocating violence directly rather than your standard issue hell-wishing.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Holy books have violence in them; as does the Bible.

Should we start calling Christian terrorists "Christianists"? It's sensationalism and brings ratings to the news media.

 

[beenie]

Me. Who did you think it was? I said "this". This is me.

Just making sure I read your post correctly. Over and out.

 

[Looncall]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Holy books have violence in them; as does the Bible.

Should we start calling Christian terrorists "Christianists"? It's sensationalism and brings ratings to the news media.

Where christians seek to overthrow government and impose their taboos on everyone, as the islamists do, christianists would be a good choice of term.

 

[sandandfoam]

Where christians seek to overthrow government and impose their taboos on everyone, as the islamists do, christianists would be a good choice of term.

I think you give the 'islamists' too mush credit - they're merely criminals.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Should we start calling Christian terrorists "Christianists"? It's sensationalism and brings ratings to the news media.

Sure, which Christian terrorists would you suggest? The butchers in the Balkans? I'll agree to that. The fanatical coercivists in India? Absolutely.

If you'd prefer another label that's fine with me too.

But the labels should not obscure the basic dynamics: Islam is a religion that promotes violence and fundamentalism, and it's inherently political. I will stand by that and argue it out for the duration of the thread if need be.

 

[beenie]

Sure, which Christian terrorists would you suggest? The butchers in the Balkans? I'll agree to that. The fanatical coercivists in India? Absolutely.

If you'd prefer another label that's fine with me too.

But the labels should not obscure the basic dynamics: Islam is a religion that promotes violence and fundamentalism, and it's inherently political. I will stand by that and argue it out for the duration of the thread if need be.

Well good for you.

I will repeat, I am no apologist for Muslims; I am one of the biggest critics, but I will do so when it's actually valid.

I'm not saying that Muslims aren't doing these ridiculous violent acts; I'm saying that the term "Islamists" is catchy and succeeds at bringing more fear to the uneducated.

These so-called "Islamists" have grossly confused religion and politics; yes, Islam intertwines religion and politics, but not like this. Disagree with me as you will, but I'll stand by that and argue it out for the duration of the thread if need be.

 

[Looncall]

I think you give the 'islamists' too mush credit - they're merely criminals.

I'm not sure. Groups such as the Taliban, Al'Quaida and others I have heard of at least say that what they want is to impose sharia on everyone. Of course, they tend to be criminals too, as with the Taliban drug trade.