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'Islamists'

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Actually, the Taliban suppressed the opium trade, one of the major reasons for the war in Afghanistan in the first place.

Of course, when convenient, they also advantage themselves of it, but opium is primarily a slave labor institution relying on refugee camp slave labor (created and sustained by American interventionism) and processed with American equipment for American objectives.

That said, these people are not criminals - or rather, they are far more than that. They are legitimately religious people, fanatically so, and deeply schooled in Islam. They have enormous religious authority; for example, when my father was in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 97-99, a friend of his - Saeeduzzaman Siddiqui, then a leading judge representing Islamic law, had a fatwa issued against him by bin Laden and his imam, and ended up hiding in protective custody until the fatwa was recalled due to a compromised understanding.
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Well good for you.

I will repeat, I am no apologist for Muslims; I am one of the biggest critics, but I will do so when it's actually valid.

I'm not saying that Muslims aren't doing these ridiculous violent acts; I'm saying that the term "Islamists" is catchy and succeeds at bringing more fear to the uneducated.

These so-called "Islamists" have grossly confused religion and politics; yes, Islam intertwines religion and politics, but not like this. Disagree with me as you will, but I'll stand by that and argue it out for the duration of the thread if need be. ;)

Which term would you suggest as an alternate to Islamist? I'm inclined to agree with you that "islamism" is unnecessarily close to "islam" and, as such, distorts public opinion.

That said, Islamic fundamentalism is unnecessarily close to Islam by default.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Which term would you suggest as an alternate to Islamist? I'm inclined to agree with you that "islamism" is unnecessarily close to "islam" and, as such, distorts public opinion.

That said, Islamic fundamentalism is unnecessarily close to Islam by default.

Terrorists. That's what they are, and religion doesn't have to be associated with it, even if THEY claim they're doing this for religious reasons.

They're lowlife terrorists.

I don't disagree with your second comment, but would change the term "fundamentalism" with "uneducated". Most people who act the way we categorize as "fundamentalists" are so far removed from any religion I've heard of...
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I think you give the 'islamists' too mush credit - they're merely criminals.
But aren't such groups, and indeed whole governments operate from Islamic convictions?
According to them they promote Sharia and Islamic law of the land.
I understand that you aim to define Islam according to its more moderate segments. But how accurate is that going to be? are we simply going to ignore all the turmoil in the Muslim world and define Islam according to our own personal ideals?
Are we going to ignore that the most populated Shiite country imposes a draconian reality according to how it grasps Islam? or that Saudi Arabia, a country which is the birthplace of Islam, and home to Islam's most sacred site also imposes a draconian reality in the name of Islam?
These are Islamic nations and cultures. They practice Islam, and work from Islamic convictions. These groups kidnap, maim, murder, and vandalize in the name of Islam. They are not the Italian Mafia or the Japanese Yakuza. Their group names and doctrines are Islamic, and wherever they succeed, whether it is in Africa now, or in Afghanistan, they apply Islamic rule of the land. So if not 'Islamists', we can simply call them Muslims.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Uneducated or exclusively educated in Islam?

Most of these people are extremely knowledgeable of the quran itself, as well as fiqh of whatever madhhab they belong to wherein they enjoy good standing. Not a few Hafiz number among them.


Terrorist is one of the most objectionable labels of all as it obscures not just one but all the issues. It's the ultimate in both fearmongering and dismissal; grievances and motives will not come to light in such a void of reason.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Truth be told, there are what, over a billion Muslims in the world?

Some of them will make unwise use of their scriptures and doctrines. It is only natural.

What does worry me is not so much Islam as the apparent (hopefully misperceived) difficulty of Muslims in dealing with those violent extremists. Badshah Khan was a great example for all of us, Muslims or otherwise. He inspired non-violence, albeit at a price. I wish more of us attained such great results.

Alas, such people are few and far between. But we definitely should aim to make that less true.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Nearly 2 billion now, most dwelling in benighted lands sunken in xenophobia, unreasoned hatred and poverty, to say nothing of the lack of education others have bemoaned.

The powder keg of the world as we head into an era of resource shortages, aggressive unilateral foreign policies of dominant nations/blocs, and ecological disintegration, men and women both riding all four horses, soon enough to be drawn and quartered by the same.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Nearly 2 billion now, most dwelling in benighted lands sunken in xenophobia, unreasoned hatred and poverty, to say nothing of the lack of education others have bemoaned.

The powder keg of the world as we head into an era of resource shortages, aggressive unilateral foreign policies of dominant nations/blocs, and ecological disintegration, men and women both riding all four horses.

I share your worries, but isn't that all the more reason to differentiate and encourage those who want to protect the peaceful interpretations of Islam?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
"Islamist" describes a fundamentalism no more inherently terrorist than Christian funadmentalism is inherently Babtist.

As I understand it, they believe that people are what they believe, and so wrong belief is directly reflected in and is responsible for the world going wrong. And someone has to fix that. They have a strict interpretation of their law and a belief that only by behaving and believing in a particular way can the world be saved/righted in God's eyes.

I'm open to being corrected.
 

Kemble

Active Member
Violence is certainly not to be accepted as part of Islam, or for that matter any other serious religion.

That isn't exactly historically accurate. I'll quote Patricia Crone from here:

That brings me to the third question: did the pre-modern Muslims never worry about the moral status of religious warfare?

The answer is mostly no, but sometimes yes. The scholars insisted that the warriors had to fight with the right intentions, for God, not for booty. They also debated whether it was right to conduct holy war under a wrongful ruler (the Sunni answer was yes). But if everything was in order on the side of the warriors, the jurists were satisfied that the enterprise was in the best interests of the victims. The conquered peoples were being dragged to Paradise in chains, as a famous saying went. Far from feeling ashamed about their use of war, Muslims often stressed that holy war was something that only they would engage in, meaning that they were willing to do much more for their religion than other people. They were willing to sacrifice their own lives so that others might live, as they put it. To them, it proved that only Islam was a truly universalist religion.

But the conquered peoples, above all the Christians, always held the Muslim use of war to be wrong, and this did eventually affect the Muslims. As early as 634 CE, a Greek tract declared that the so-called prophet must be an impostor because prophets don't come armed with the sword. Fifty years later a Christian patriarch supposedly told the caliph that Islam was a religion spread by the sword, meaning that therefore it could not be true. The Christians were to harp on this theme for ever after. In the 10th and 11th centuries, the Muslims began to mention this claim, clearly because they were upset by it.

For example, al-Amiri, an Iranian philosopher who died in 996, takes issue with unidentified people who say that "if Islam were a religion of truth, it would be a religion of mercy, and the one who calls to it would not in that case attack people with the sword to take their property and capture and enslave their families; rather, he would proselytise with words and guide to it by the force of his explanations". In other words, true religion is spread by peaceful mission; holy war is just a religious cover for rapaciousness, whatever people might say about the purity of their intentions.

It isn't always clear in these texts whether the charges were made by Muslims or non-Muslims, but there were certainly Muslims now who felt the association of warfare and religion to be wrong. A 10th-century religious leader by the name of Ibn Karram, for example, was said by his followers to have been worthier of prophethood than Mohammed, because he lived an ascetic life and did not conduct war. And some Muslims (or ex-Muslims) rejected all established religions, not just Islam, on the grounds that all prophets, not just Mohammed, were tricksters who used religion to start wars and accumulate worldly power. So now the concept of holy war had to be defended.

One of the most interesting defences is by this philosopher al-Amiri. He responded by identifying jihad as defensive warfare. That's what many modern apologetes do, too, sometimes writing off offensive jihad - missionary warfare - as an Orientalist invention. (Orientalism often gets used as a grand trash-can in which modern Muslims dump all the aspects of pre-modern Islam that they have come to dislike.) Modern Muslims will even go so far as to cast the prophet's wars and the Arab conquests as defensive, or pre-emptive, but this was more than al-Amiri could bring himself to do.

When it came to the prophet, he fell back on the altruism argument: Mohammed was not in it for material wealth or power. This is clear from the fact that he suffered for ten years in Mecca before setting up a state in Medina; he conquered people for their own good, not for his own sake, and the Iranians ought to be grateful to the Arabs for having destroyed the Persian empire; not only did the Arabs bring the truth, they also freed them from for the oppressive tyranny and rigid social hierarchy that prevailed in that empire. The Muslims came as liberators on all fronts. Of course, al-Amiri says, Mohammed would have preferred not to use the sword at all, but since the infidels so stubbornly resisted him, he had no choice.


LuisDantas said:
I don't really know what an Islamist is supposed to be, though. The words suggests some sort of connection to Islamic causes, yet at the same time it falls short of being actually Islamic. Perhaps it implies a political commitment to causes that claim Islamic inspiration or goals?

I'm guessing "Islamists" really means "Salafi jihadis."
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I share your worries, but isn't that all the more reason to differentiate and encourage those who want to protect the peaceful interpretations of Islam?


Certainly, Islam should be changed by these forces and they should be encouraged, but I draw the line when it turns to revisionism and whitewashing the reality of Islam.
 

Kemble

Active Member
No, Islamism isn't limited to any particular interpretation of sunnah.

Hah; honest to God "Islamism" really means Islam and "Islamists" really means Muslims but God forbid we start leaving Political Correctness. The modern non-Salafis that do not follow the texts in its literal contexts nor the examples of living during the early Muslim era are the actual abrogation to Islam, not exactly the Salafis. Somehow since Holy fighting, strict Sharia, and the like are no longer preferable to modern sensibilities the Muslims that do see and reject the liberalization of Islam due to western influences as changing the religion are termed "fundamentalists" and marginalized in the western and sometimes Arab media.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems to me that most Muslims make a definite if perhaps unconscious distinction between Islam (a high ideal that is perhaps not to be found on Earth) and Muslim communities and their actions.

Far too often that becomes an obstacle and even a flaming factor in what could otherwise be fair and constructive criticism of Muslims and Muslim groups.

On the other hand, I must admit that I don't get the vibe that Muslims generally speaking go out of their way to receive constructive criticism about Muslim society, to put it mildly. Many are very territorial and defensive, not to their gain IMO.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
"Islamist" describes a fundamentalism no more inherently terrorist than Christian funadmentalism is inherently Babtist.
I get what you are saying, Patty, but the comparison is more than a bit weird.

In regards to the OP:
To my mind 'islamism' constitutes the antithesis of islam. What do you think?
To my thinking it captures the heart and spirit of Islam to a T.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hah; honest to God "Islamism" really means Islam and "Islamists" really means Muslims but God forbid we start leaving Political Correctness. The modern non-Salafis that do not follow the texts in its literal contexts nor the examples of living during the early Muslim era are the actual abrogation to Islam, not exactly the Salafis. Somehow since Holy fighting, strict Sharia, and the like are no longer preferable to modern sensibilities the Muslims that do see and reject the liberalization of Islam due to western influences as changing the religion are termed "fundamentalists" and marginalized in the western and sometimes Arab media.

Maybe. But is that at all wrong? In any way?
 

Kemble

Active Member
Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems to me that most Muslims make a definite if perhaps unconscious distinction between Islam (a high ideal that is perhaps not to be found on Earth) and Muslim communities and their actions.

I don't think Islam can be easily or at all separated from the social/legal contexts. And if that statement is the case it is a modern innovation.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't think Islam can be easily or at all separated from the social/legal contexts. And if that statement is the case it is a modern innovation.

Oh, of course it can't. But the effort is made all the same, and it seems to be very important to many.
 

Kemble

Active Member
Maybe. But is that at all wrong? In any way?

Pretty good question. Further down Crone's article sketches the current situation really good I think:

Jihad, then and now

This leads to the fourth question: what is the relevance of all this to the modern world? The Muslims have not practised missionary jihad since the decline of the Ottoman empire, at least not under the sponsorship of states, and to my knowledge there are no serious calls for its return. What the tradition has left is a strong activist streak, a sense that it is right to fight for your convictions. "Look at you, you Christians, with your passivity you have turned religion into something that doesn't exist", as demonstrators against Salman Rushdie said in Paris in March 1989. But to understand the fundamentalists we need to go to the other kind of jihad, the one practised when the Muslims are politically weak.

What happens when Muslim territory falls under infidel sovereignty? Can Muslims stay on and live under non-Muslim rule? Some jurists said yes, others denied it on the grounds that Islamic law could only be applied in full under Muslim sovereignty. If infidels conquered Muslim land, the Muslims had to emigrate, they had to make a hijra to a place where they could practice Islamic law - either an existing Muslim state or a new one set up by themselves - and then they should start holy war in order to reconquer their homeland. Not all scholars subscribed to this view, but it was upheld by many in response to the loss of Muslim territory in Spain and it also inspired anti-colonial movements in British India, French Algeria and elsewhere.

Imagine an even worse scenario: what happens when not a single Islamic state exists any more, when all political power has turned infidel? The answer is the same with greater urgency (and probably less disagreement too). You must emigrate to a place where you can establish a Muslim state and then you must wage holy war to get it going. In both cases, the model is Mohammed: first he lived in pagan Mecca, under infidel sovereignty, then he emigrated to Medina where he established a Muslim polity and started jihad and conquered Mecca, which he cleansed and purified; thereafter his followers began the conquest of the rest of the world, in what eventually turned into missionary warfare.

Jihad for the recovery or actual creation of Muslim sovereignty (as opposed to its expansion): that's the type that is practised today. Modern fundamentalists (or Islamists) call it defensive jihad, though it is not what the classical Muslims understood by that term. It makes sense to them, partly because they feel on the defensive; partly because everyone recognises the legitimacy of defensive war; and not least, because participation in defensive jihad is an individual obligation, like fasting and prayer, not a communal duty like the missionary type, which you don't have to undertake as long as others are doing it. So calling your jihad defensive is good for mobilisation.

Whatever you call it, the missionary element is greatly reduced in this type of warfare. Of course, you have to convert people to your own beliefs in order to get them together for state formation and conquest, but the emphasis is not so much on saving people as on saving Islam, especially in the more extreme version when no Islamic state is deemed to exist at all. For Islam can't exist without political embodiment, according to this view. There has to be a place on earth where God rules. Without it, collective (and individual?) life ceases to have any moral foundations.

In the past, jihad for the actual creation of Muslim sovereignty was only practised by heretics, for it was only heretics who would deny that existing states were Islamic. The very first to do so were the Kharijites, who are almost as old as Islam itself. There were also Shi'ites who did. But the Sunnis always accepted their own states as Islamic in some (sometimes minimalist) sense, at least until the 18th century, and most still do, including the Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas. Their jihad is concentrated on the recovery of Muslim territory, such as Palestine, and the defence of Muslims in places such as Chechnya. They don't attack infidels elsewhere, nor don't they believe in fighting Muslim rulers, or not any more.

But other fundamentalists deem all Muslim states, or even all Muslim people apart from themselves, to be infidels. Al-Qaida is among them. They direct their efforts against America rather than fellow Muslims because America is deemed to be behind everything wrong in the Muslim world - you can't correct the shadow cast by a crooked stick, as Osama bin Laden is said to have put it. But when America, the crooked stick, has been removed, it will be the turn of the Muslim world in general, and by that they mean all countries with a Muslim population, which is in effect the whole earth by now. So as far as al-Qaida is concerned, the old distinction between the abode of Islam and the abode of war has disappeared.

The extreme fundamentalists can't see any difference between living in Egypt, for example, and living under non-Muslim rule, thanks to the all-pervasive influence of the modern state. In the old days the political domain was also worldly and corrupt, but the social domain was still shaped by Islam. Nowadays, however, it is the state that regulates marriage, divorce, inheritance, trade, finance, work, health, childcare, schooling, higher education, and so on, often with attention to what the sharia says, but freely reshaping it to fit modern, secular aims which originate in the infidel and politically dominant west.

So one way or the other, Muslims are ruled by the west wherever they live, not just politically but also socially and culturally. Wherever they are look, they are being invaded by so-called western values - in the form of giant billboards advertising self-indulgence, semi-pornographic films, liquor, pop music, fat tourists in indecent clothes and funny hats, and politicians lecturing people about the virtues of democracy. Religion does not actually shape the social realm any more, except rhetorically. All that religion shapes in modern Muslim societies is voluntary associations such as Sufi orders, Muslim brotherhoods, and fundamentalist cells, which fall short of being whole societies, let alone states, and which you can set up in non-Muslim countries too. So in effect, as the fundamentalists see it, all Muslims have become diaspora Muslims.

Some Muslims are happy with this. They want the socio-political order to be secularised; they want religious affiliation to be voluntary. They are the secularists, the people we have no trouble understanding. But to the fundamentalists, or rather to the extremists among them, all Muslims are now living in a new age of ignorance (jahiliyya) such as that which prevailed in pagan Arabia before the rise of Islam. This is why one must get together to reenact Mohammed's career and save Islam.

Establishment religious scholars often compare such fundamentalists to the Kharijites of the early Islamic period, and with good reason. They are amazingly similar. There is the same declaration of other Muslims to be infidels, the same sense of fighting for God rather than for people - God has to rule even if the whole world is going to perish in the attempt -the same utter ruthlessness too. The Kharijites allowed assassinations, indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of men, women and children alike, much like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Their missions were often suicidal, too, not in the sense that they'd set out on individual missions bound to result in death, but rather in the sense that tiny numbers would take on huge forces bound to exterminate them, inspired by a quest for martyrdom. They had sold their souls to God, as they put it, and got a good price for them, too, namely Paradise; they went into battle intending to collect the price. And then as today, women would fight along with the men.

There is of course no direct link whatever between the Kharijites and modern fundamentalists. People like Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri don't even seem to know their own tradition all that well. Rather, they have stripped Islam of practically everything that most Muslims consider to be their religion.

What's left is an archetypal monotheist of the confrontational type: a separatist and militant zealot. In the view of such zealots, God's people can't live together with infidels, they must have their own political space. Right and wrong must be embodied in separate communities, and every Muslim must fight to bring this about.

The history of Islam starts with a great separation of God's people from the rest of mankind by force of arms, and Islamic history thereafter is punctuated by regular attempts to restore the separation, to get rid of all the complexity that obscured the simplicity of the original vision. Those who engaged in such attempts tended to come from the more peripheral areas of the middle east, often from a tribal background, and they were always minorities. The fundamentalists, too, are only a small minority today. But you don't need an awful lot of people of this kind for an awful lot of trouble.
 
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