Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

[Father Heathen]

When something is uncomfortable to face,
eg, justifying the unjustifiable, there's always....
"But look over here!"

My favorite are the accusations of anti-semitism directed at anyone who would dare to suggest that the Israeli government isn't above reproach and shouldn't act with impunity. Wearing a kippah doesn't make one exempt from accountability.

 

[Left Coast]

IDF releases intelligence indicating Hamas is using Shifa hospital as a shield for their underground base of operations. These claims of course are denied by Hamas.

Hamas’s main operations base is under Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, says IDF

Military charges terror group has several underground complexes under Gaza's largest hospital, says 'hundreds of terrorists flooded into hospital to hide' after Oct. 7 massacres

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Lyndon]

Israel lies about everything, why should you believe anything they say, its just an excuse to bomb the largest hospital in Gaza

 

[Revoltingest]

IDF releases intelligence indicating Hamas is using Shifa hospital as a shield for their underground base of operations. These claims of course are denied by Hamas.

Hamas’s main operations base is under Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, says IDF

Military charges terror group has several underground complexes under Gaza's largest hospital, says 'hundreds of terrorists flooded into hospital to hide' after Oct. 7 massacres

www.timesofisrael.com

Bombing hospitals is useful, as Putin has shown.
It not only enhances the death count, it places
additional burden on people to transport &
care for the injured. It also helps de-populate
coveted new territory.
But there is a downside, ie, causing bad PR,
& inspiring violent resistance against the attacker.

 

[Left Coast]

Bombing hospitals is useful, as Putin has shown.
It not only enhances the death count, it places
additional burden on people to transport &
care for the injured. It also helps de-populate
coveted new territory.

Strange comparison. A comparison of Putin to Hamas would be more accurate (Ukraine agrees, btw).

 

[Revoltingest]

Strange comparison. A comparison of Putin to Hamas would be more accurate (Ukraine agrees, btw).

In comparisons, it's useful to consider the similarities
claimed, not dismiss them because there are differences.
Similar....
Russia is invading Ukraine. Israel is invading Gaza.
Russia bombs infrastructure to win the war, & seize the territory.
Israel bombs infrastructure to remove Palestinians, & ultimately
control the territory.

 

[Left Coast]

In comparisons, it's useful to consider the similarities
claimed, not dismiss them because there are differences.
Similar....
Russia is invading Ukraine. Israel is invading Gaza.

Hamas invaded Israel on October 7th. That's what started this round.

Russia bombs infrastructure to win the war, & seize the territory.

All wars involve bombing of infrastructure. So they're similar in that they're wars. Aside from that, we have to get more specific.

Israel bombs infrastructure to remove Palestinians, & ultimately
control the territory.

Hamas intentionally uses civilian infrastructure as a shield. Israel left Gaza in 2006 and hasn't been back. Strange move for a group that allegedly wants that strip of land so bad.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Israel lies about everything, ...

That is a baseless, bigoted claim.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas invaded Israel on October 7th. That's what started this round.

No argument here.

All wars involve bombing of infrastructure. So they're similar in that they're wars. Aside from that, we have to get more specific.

The extent & purpose of bombing can vary.

Hamas intentionally uses civilian infrastructure as a shield.

And Israel uses this to justify intentional killing of
civilians, & destruction of homes & infrastructure.

Israel left Gaza in 2006 and hasn't been back. Strange move for a group that allegedly wants that strip of land so bad.

I don't know why Hamas's timing is what it is.
But I suspect that this attack required years
of preparation.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is a baseless, bigoted claim.

It's histrionic, but not really "bigoted".
And really...enuf of the bogus defense of Israel's
evil acts by attacking critics by playing the tired
old anti-semitism card.

 

[Left Coast]

No argument here.

Then it sounds like we agree that on that score, Putin is more like Hamas.

The extent & purpose of bombing can vary.

Of course. But that doesn't really help your comparison unless you get specific.

And Israel uses this to justify intentional killing of
civilians, & destruction of homes & infrastructure.

What, in your mind, is Israel justified in doing militarily to combat Hamas and ensure they can't carry out another terrorist attack? How do you fight an enemy that intentionally bunkers and fires rockets from hospitals, schools, and mosques?

I don't know why Hamas's timing is what it is.
But I suspect that this attack required years
of preparation.

The timing of Hamas' attack isn't the point here. Israel leaving the territory for 17 years is. If they wanted that strip of land so bad, they wouldn't have done that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then it sounds like we agree that on that score, Putin is more like Hamas.

Not quite.
I'm looking at invasions, both Ukraine & Gaza.

Of course. But that doesn't really help your comparison unless you get specific.

If you don't like my comparison, that's OK.

What, in your mind, is Israel justified in doing militarily to combat Hamas and ensure they can't carry out another terrorist attack? How do you fight an enemy that intentionally bunkers and fires rockets from hospitals, schools, and mosques?

To ensure against terrorist attacks is a matter of degree.
Consider that here in USA we don't try to prevent all
possible attacks because that would require severe
repression. Israel appears to strike a far difference
balance, ie, kill many innocent Palestinians to get
every last terrorist. And in the process, Israel commits
war crimes.

The timing of Hamas' attack isn't the point here.

Agree.

Israel leaving the territory for 17 years is. If they wanted that strip of land so bad, they wouldn't have done that.

Motivations change.
It now that Israel is clearing Gaza of
Palestinians, either by death or diaspora.
Do you approve of what Israel is doing?

 

[Left Coast]

Not quite.
I'm looking at invasions, both Ukraine & Gaza.

But that gets the order of events wrong. Russia invaded Ukraine first. Hamas invaded Israel first. Those are the analogous invasions. Not to mention the fact that Hamas and Russia are geopolitically aligned. Israel is aligned with the West.

If you don't like my comparison, that's OK.

Phew!

To ensure against terrorist attacks is a matter of degree.
Consider that here in USA we don't try to prevent all
possible attacks because that would require severe
repression. Israel appears to strike a far difference
balance, ie, kill many innocent Palestinians to get
every last terrorist. And in the process, Israel commits
war crimes.

Israel and the US are in vastly different positions in terms of their security and level of risk at the moment.

So again I ask: What, in your mind, is Israel justified in doing militarily to combat Hamas and ensure they can't carry out another terrorist attack? How do you fight an enemy that intentionally bunkers and fires rockets from hospitals, schools, and mosques?

Motivations change.

So suddenly, overnight, Israel became overcome with an urge to control Gaza? Really? Is that a reasonable interpretation of what happened? Or are they at war with a terrorist group that just killed over 1,300 of their people and want to ensure they can never do that again? Which motivation makes more sense here?

It now that Israel is clearing Gaza of
Palestinians, either by death or diaspora.

Clearing Gaza? If anything, the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza is that they can't leave. For one thing, Hamas has told them to remain. And neither Israel nor Egypt will risk opening their borders for them.

Do you approve of what Israel is doing?

In the main, I do. That doesn't mean I'm going to defend every single thing Israel does or has ever done. But Israel has a right to ensure that Hamas cannot ever again do what it did. And they are fighting an enemy that intentionally positions itself so that civilians will be killed. And that is holding 200+ Israelis (and some Americans, btw) hostage.

 

[Lyndon]

But that gets the order of events wrong. Russia invaded Ukraine first. Hamas invaded Israel first. Those are the analogous invasions. Not to mention the fact that Hamas and Russia are geopolitically aligned. Israel is aligned with the West.



Phew!



Israel and the US are in vastly different positions in terms of their security and level of risk at the moment.

So again I ask: What, in your mind, is Israel justified in doing militarily to combat Hamas and ensure they can't carry out another terrorist attack? How do you fight an enemy that intentionally bunkers and fires rockets from hospitals, schools, and mosques?



So suddenly, overnight, Israel became overcome with an urge to control Gaza? Really? Is that a reasonable interpretation of what happened? Or are they at war with a terrorist group that just killed over 1,300 of their people and want to ensure they can never do that again? Which motivation makes more sense here?



Clearing Gaza? If anything, the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza is that they can't leave. For one thing, Hamas has told them to remain. And neither Israel nor Egypt will risk opening their borders for them.



In the main, I do. That doesn't mean I'm going to defend every single thing Israel does or has ever done. But Israel has a right to ensure that Hamas cannot ever again do what it did. And they are fighting an enemy that intentionally positions itself so that civilians will be killed. And that is holding 200+ Israelis (and some Americans, btw) hostage.

Are you crazy, how do you think Israel got there in the first place, by invading Palestine with the British help

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hamas invaded Israel on October 7th. That's what started this round.



All wars involve bombing of infrastructure. So they're similar in that they're wars. Aside from that, we have to get more specific.



Hamas intentionally uses civilian infrastructure as a shield. Israel left Gaza in 2006 and hasn't been back. Strange move for a group that allegedly wants that strip of land so bad.

Innocent people are being massacred in their thousands. Who cares who wants the strip of land, or who started the conflict and why, there’ll be no one left alive in Gaza soon

 

[Left Coast]

Are you crazy, how do you think Israel got there in the first place, by invading Palestine with the British help

Your ignorance of history is rather stunning.

 

[Left Coast]

Innocent people are being massacred in their thousands. Who cares who wants the strip of land, or who started the conflict and why, there’ll be no one left alive in Gaza soon

I very much doubt that.

The reasons behind the conflict are obviously relevant.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Who cares who wants the strip of land ...?

The issue is not who wants the strip of land, but, rather, who wants to obliterate every trace of Israel from the river to the sea. Your indifference to that genocidal threat speaks volumes.

 

[Revoltingest]

But that gets the order of events wrong.

It's about a current situation.
Of course there will be differences,
eg, order of events.
My comparison doesn't work for you.
I needn't pursue it.

So again I ask: What, in your mind, is Israel justified in doing militarily to combat Hamas and ensure they can't carry out another terrorist attack?

By your question, is it rhetorical to justify Israel's
brutal killing of so many innocents to eliminate Hamas?
If a real question, I'll answer it again....
The war must be waged in a far more surgical manner.
If Israel's goal is to kill many times more Palestianians
per Israeli death, then the goal is evil.
The fundamental problem that Israeli apologists won't
address is that decades of oppression, torture, murder,
group punishment, etc created the situation today.
The best defense is to offer justice to Palestinians.
This will take a long time, but it's the only path to
peace. Alas, Israel only wants momentary victory.

So suddenly, overnight, Israel became overcome with an urge to control Gaza?

No. Before the Hamas attack, the control
was more political & economic oppression.
This is all in the news.

Really? Is that a reasonable interpretation of what happened? Or are they at war with a terrorist group that just killed over 1,300 of their people and want to ensure they can never do that again?

Israel has now killed over 7,000 Palestinians.
Should we ensure that Israel never does that again?

If one takes the view that all civilian deaths should
be avoided, this requires considering the humanity
of both Israelis & Palestinians. To empathize only
with Israel leads to further injustice.

Which motivation makes more sense here?



Clearing Gaza? If anything, the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza is that they can't leave. For one thing, Hamas has told them to remain. And neither Israel nor Egypt will risk opening their borders for them.



In the main, I do.

And this is the view that has western countries
aiding Israel's oppression & murder of Palestinians.
Israel even kills the ones trying to flee.
The morality that Israel's wants will trump
Palestinian lives shows the western / Christian /
Jewish minimization of Muslim lives.

But Israel has a right to ensure that Hamas cannot ever again do what it did.

Not by committing war crimes.

And they are fighting an enemy that intentionally positions itself so that civilians will be killed. And that is holding 200+ Israelis (and some Americans, btw) hostage.

You complain of 200+ hostages still alive.
But not 7,000+ Palestinian lives lost, & 17,000+ injured.
I focus far more on Palestinians because they're the
ones doing the lion's share of suffering at the hands
of a powerful state that's put boots on necks for most
of a century....leading to the conflict we see.
Israel owns this violence.

 

[Lyndon]

The issue is not who wants the strip of land, but, rather, who wants to obliterate every trace of Israel from the river to the sea. Your indifference to that genocidal threat speaks volumes.

Just as many Israelis would support killing all the Palestinians, here's a quote from your fearless leader, something on the order of what you'd expect from Putin or Hitler

The Israeli PM does not name him but says: "Don't accuse us of war crimes. If you think that you can accuse our soldiers of war crimes that is hypocrisy. We are the most moral army in the world."