Orbit
I'm a planet
I found some research on that: What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas – Arab Barometer
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Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks
- Thread starter Left Coast
- Start date
The paucity of criticism by US's government,
& the utter lack of sanctions says otherwise.
Even if one eventually discovers that another
cannot be negotiated with, to dismiss the
possibility, & never even try is to commit
to carnage.
Israel's negotiations have offered too little.
And it kept up the oppression.
As to how this is known....I read.
Where you'd abandon the possibility
of negotiated peace, I see potential.
They gotta do more than talk the talk,
they gotta walk the walk. They don't.
You mistake your orientation & opinions for facts.
I see them reacting with vengeance, ensuring
that hostilities will continue & likely increase.
I never said it would be easy.
You over-estimate your understanding of history,
& have too much certainty that yours is the only
cromulent view.
You use your understanding of history to justify
assigning blame & labels of good or evil. This
doesn't solve problems...it just perpetuates them.
But you were more than willing to trumpet that 73% of 1010 Palestinians agreed with a hadith about which you apparently know exceedingly little. In other words, the quote sounded provocative and incriminating, and that's good enough for you.
Do you consider this approach to be responsible?
I'll use a phrase typical of you: we see things differently.
They have tried. They have a long history of trying. Again, if you don't know this, I don't know what more to say to you.
What should they have offered that they didn't? You understand that more than Israel has been involved in these negotiations, eg the UN, yes?
This is a little like imagining the US changing the Constitution to remove the 1st Amendment. You can imagine if that makes you happy. The rest of us have to live in the real world.
Says you, sans details of course.
It's my "opinion" that Hamas is part of a long history of militant Islamist groups who always frame Jews as the enemy?
With respect, Rev, that isn't my opinion. Again, if you don't grasp this dynamic, ypu don't grasp a fundamental aspect of this conflict.
I see them disabling their enemy so they aren't attacked again.
Physician, heal thyself!
You similarly assign labels of good and evil, just in different places and with different emphases. If we have no moral center to understand what reasonably constitutes right and wrong, we are hopelessly lost in navigating any war or geopolitical conflict.
I feel complimented.
Uh oh....nothing respectful ever begins thus.
The rest is well trodden ground,
so I've nothing to add.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
I do. The briefest Google search brings one to an English translation of the Covenant, provided by the Avalon Project of the Yale Law School over a decade ago. Hamas has not revised or modified its Covenant in all that time. The public statements of its leaders and its continued terror offensive against Israel are clear evidence that Hamas remains inspired by the ideas expressed in founding text. This should be every policy maker’s, and every journalist’s, first stop in their efforts to understand Hamas. And it is of utmost importance that they read the text itself, as any student of literature will tell you. There is no substitute; to understand a person one must read him in his own words, noting everything from the cadence and syntax to the allusions to key figures of his ideological tradition. The Gaza war will be incomprehensible to anyone who refuses to take Hamas at its word—these words. And these words tell us that the Jew is the enemy and they want them wiped off the face off the earth. No negotiation. No diplomacy. No compromise.
The attack on Israel occurred on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Not the Last Great Day for us (the eighth day), but the seventh day of the Feast. This is indeed a religious war and frankly, I would be surprised if my posts didn't come across as somewhat provocative. I found the attack on Israel provocative. They attacked towns, kibbutzim, other civilian areas and roads across multiple border points, perpetrating flagrant violations of international law, including mass summary killings of civilians, butchering children, rape, beheadings, abductions and hostage-taking, physical abuse and firing thousands of indiscriminate rockets. And they are actually wicked people, spineless cowards, who instead of condemning this attack, support it. Why aren't these various countries clamping down on these people who were celebrating this attack? Thousands of people took to the streets celebrating these attacks. I'm not going to stand for it. And neither should Israel.
That sounds like our operation Freedom in Iraq.
Killing Hamas won't work. Land won't work. Israel will continue with diplomacy, because that is what she believes in. It is her burden to bear our criticism, because honest even I am like "Just get it over with what are you waiting for IDF?" and they continue with this awful slow pleading and negotiation. Drives me crazy.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
The discussion between you and Revoltingest after this was very interesting, but the Washington Post is paywalled. If you are a subscriber, can you gift this article?
Personally, I agreed mostly with Rev's position in the discussion, but the really important question now is what happens next. The humanitarian crisis on Israel's doorstep is exploding now, and the aftermath is going to be Israel's primary responsibility. Roughly two million people have been cut off from supplies of water, food, power, and medical aid. Panicked Gazan civilians are already raiding warehouses for what is left to scavenge.
UN warns "civil order" starting to break down as Gazans break into warehouses to take basic survival items
It is unclear how many noncombatants will die by the end of hostilities, but it looks like it will be at least in the tens of thousands, many from lack of food and water. The relentless bombardment of both the north and the south continues. The Quds hospital has been told to evacuate, an impossible order, presumably because the IDF believes it to be a shelter for Hamas militants and wants to destroy it. But Netanyahu, now apologizing for admitting that he had advance warning of the attack, says that the war will not end quickly. It is unlikely that a meaningful level of humanitarian support can reach the Gazans during hostilities.
Even before the ground invasion, Biden warned that Israel had no real exit strategy for ending the war, knowing that Israel's backers and allies were also going to be part owners of the Israeli response. So they will be needing to justify their support for the unfolding disaster in its aftermath. What is the vision for how all of this ends? What will be the future for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank when the military action runs its course? Will there be an extended occupation of the Gazan Strip by Israel?
Aye, USA bears great responsibility for aiding
the Palestinians. Now, & afterward.
I just can't say "my" regarding these
hideous death merchants in power.
Get back to me when you learn to distinguish between a particular hadith on the one hand and an English translation of a covenant that references that hadith on the other.
Hey there.
I'll PM it to you, sure.
Here's another article you should read for additional context:
As Gazans Scrounge for Food and Water, Hamas Sits on a Rich Trove of Supplies
Hamas has spent years stockpiling desperately needed fuel, food and medicine, as well as ammo and weapons, in the miles of tunnels it has carved out under Gaza.
That is the million dollar question, of course. The immediate need, from Israel's perspective, is to ensure that Hamas cannot attack them any more and that the hostages are released. Israel surely does not want to militarily occupy Gaza, for more than one reason. So I hope it does not go that way. The most reasonable course of action to me right now, in the medium if not long term, is for the PA to be allowed to take over in Gaza. They are much more amenable to peaceful solutions and negotiation than Hamas.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Hey there.
I'll PM it to you, sure.
Here's another article you should read for additional context:
As Gazans Scrounge for Food and Water, Hamas Sits on a Rich Trove of Supplies
Hamas has spent years stockpiling desperately needed fuel, food and medicine, as well as ammo and weapons, in the miles of tunnels it has carved out under Gaza.www.nytimes.com
That is the million dollar question, of course. The immediate need, from Israel's perspective, is to ensure that Hamas cannot attack them any more and that the hostages are released. Israel surely does not want to militarily occupy Gaza, for more than one reason. So I hope it does not go that way. The most reasonable course of action to me right now, in the medium if not long term, is for the PA to be allowed to take over in Gaza. They are much more amenable to peaceful solutions and negotiation than Hamas.
Thanks, I've read the article you sent a made a few comments on it to you by PM. I agree about potential involvement from the PA, but, as Boot pointed out, Netanyahu's past policies have tended to weaken their hand and strengthened Hamas's. I fear that prolonged occupation, while not the solution, is the inevitable consequence of the ground invasion. The US may find itself somewhat isolated in its support for Israel as the dimensions of the humanitarian crisis there expand. It may well be that Hamas is hoarding water and food for itself, but there isn't much that the civilian population there, half of whom are children and teenagers, will have much say in getting their hands on it. Much of that supply could even be destroyed in the fighting.
Rioters storm airport in Russia's Dagestan in hunt for Jews aboard flight from Israel
As with the October 7th pogroms, we've seen this before.
As with the October 7th pogroms, we've seen this before.
Agreed, that's been a mistake of his no doubt.
I fear the same things.
Which is precisely the problem with them staying in power.
Orbit
I'm a planet
We've seen this before, too:
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Rula Jebreal
@rulajebreal
This is Palestinian citizens of Israel’s reality. Arab college students in Netanya are terrorized/hunted down in their dorms by 100s of Jewish supremacists (w police protection) trying to Lynch them, chanting Netanyahu’s minister’s slogan “death to Arabs.”
We've seen this before, too:
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Rula Jebreal
@rulajebreal
This is Palestinian citizens of Israel’s reality. Arab college students in Netanya are terrorized/hunted down in their dorms by 100s of Jewish supremacists (w police protection) trying to Lynch them, chanting Netanyahu’s minister’s slogan “death to Arabs.”
Not sure what happened with the link there; I found a news story re: the incident.
Antisemitic and Islamophobic incidents are also increasing in the West.
Antisemitic hate crimes in London up 1,350%, Met police say
Israel-Hamas war sees hate crimes increase across UK, with Islamophobic offences in capital rising by 140%
Hideous all around.
If Hamas's murder of 1,400 Israelis is a pogrom.
Would the same term apply to Israel's murder of 8,000 Palestinians?
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
But the riot seems to have been a spontaneous riot sparked by outrage against the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip, not a planned terrorist operation. It was directed at one flight on a Russian carrier that was arriving from Israel. In fact, Muslim and local authorities tried to calm the rioters.
Pogroms in the Russian Empire tended to be more organized and probably had their origin in Catherine II's campaign in the late 18th century to drive Jews out of their homes and into restricted western regions of the empire. Those were more connected to organized general antisemitism in Russia that persists to this day. The Dagestan riot was aimed at one flight from Israel, not at driving people out of their homes. My wife's grandfather left Odesa in the early 20th century to flee that kind of oppression.
I fear that we are only seeing the beginning of these kinds of spontaneous demonstrations against Israel and the US as the crisis just gets worse in Gaza.
InChrist
Free4ever
I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’m wondering whether the majority of Palestinians do support Hamas. From my understanding children are indoctrinated into hatred toward Jews from young childhood and that killing Jews brings rewards. If the focus of the culture is to raise Jihadists, then it’s hard to imagine those being steeped in such hatred with a mission, would desire peace with those they have been taught to hate so intensely. I also have not read any articles or heard many or any Palestinian voices or
protests demanding Hamas release the abducted hostages. I’m not aware of any regular Palestinian civilians coming forth to reveal where the hostages may be hidden. I have also read that ordinary civilians of Gaza participated in the brutality…
“I saw a scene where a Gazan civilian chopped off a man's head. It took him several attempts to detach the head from the body," he said.
According to a video that was posted online, Gazans used a bulldozer to tear down a section of Israel's border fence, and hundreds of unarmed men and boys—wearing T-shirts, baseball caps, sneakers, and flip-flops—crossed into the country. They came mostly on foot but also by bicycle, scooter, and motorcycle. Someone appears to have brought a donkey. Other online videos show ordinary Gazans taking selfieson and around Israeli tanks and ransackinga military base on the border. All the while, cries of "Allahu Akbar" rang out.
The mob soon arrived in nearby Israeli communities that Hamas was already terrorizing. Security footage and Hamas videos from Be'eri, Nir Oz, and other kibbutzim capture dozens of ordinary-looking Gazans looting and taking part in killings and kidnappings, including of women and children.
Some of these people extorted their victims. Jacqueline Glicksman, an 81-year-old resident of Kibbutz Ein HaShlosha, told the Free Beacon that three teenage boys from Gaza broke through the window of her safe room and demanded money. She told them she had none, and minutes later, her house was burned down. Glicksman somehow managed to jump out of the broken window in her pajamas and run to safety. But her friend, Silvia Mirensky, 80, was killed in an arson attack next door.
Meanwhile, in the streets of Gaza, crowds greeted the returning kidnappers as conquering heroes, online videos show. Some Gazans taunted the Israeli hostages and defiled the dead as they were paraded through the streets.”
'Just as Cruel as the Terrorists': Many Ordinary Palestinians Joined in Hamas's Atrocities Against Israel
TEL AVIV—As Hamas terrorists carried out a highly choreographed massacre in Israel on Oct. 7, they received a source of support that amplified the horror that took place that day. A mob of ordinary Palestinians spontaneously joined in what became the deadliest pogrom against Jews since the...
freebeacon.com