• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Hamas, a Palestinian militant group, acquires smuggled weapons from Iran and also builds them in Gaza, according to the CIA.-- PolitiFact - Ask PolitiFact: Where does Hamas get its weapons?
I am well aware that HAMAS has been building weapons.

Here in the USA many alter guns in their garages to circumvent rules of no full automatic.

The reason many of the HAMAS weapons dont make it over the fences (33%) is that many are manure filled plumbing piping.

The propellants range from gasoline to animal manure. Imagine if they knew how to take water use electricity to make hydrogen/oxygen propellants.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
That was not the point, plus how do you know much of anything about what they've sent when you didn't even know they did?
Because they do not have any real military or armed forces.

They are living within a concentration camp (prison)
And I never said I did, nor do I.

Why is it that you couldn't be honest and respectful and admit you were wrong? Why were you oh so cock sure that I was wrong and you were right when you obviously didn't do any research on this? Seems highly immature of you, so...

Bye
Thats the best part of your post.......... Bye!

I am well aware that there are no shipments of weapons into gaza. What you have are articles of claims and images of junk that is old and obsolete.

When you show me, anti aircraft weapons and something beyond mortars, then they could have something beyond what a street gang in LA could have.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member

Senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad told Lebanese TV that his organisation was determined to repeat the massacre of 7 October, when the men of Hamas murdered some 1,400 Israelis, most of them civilians, torturing and maiming their victims in ways too cruel to recount. Hamad promised that 7 October was “just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth”. He was asked if Hamas was bent on Israel’s annihilation. “Yes, of course,” he replied.

No doubt top of the Hit Parade for Israel. o_O

It was as clear an answer as Israel could have hoped for as it seeks to explain why it cannot lay down its arms until Hamas is rendered incapable of doing again what it did four weeks ago, arguing that Israel should be granted as much leeway as the US (and UK) granted themselves when they set about the destruction of Isis. The result has been an Israeli onslaught that has already taken some 9,000 Gazan lives, destroying entire families at a stroke. Though in explaining that appallingly high figure, here too Hamas offered some assistance. One Hamas official was asked by a TV interviewer if the organisation’s more than 300-mile network of underground tunnels could not perhaps shelter civilians. No, no, the Hamas man explained: “The tunnels are for us [Hamas]. The citizens in the Gaza Strip are under the responsibility of the United Nations.”

Which is as to what I commented elsewhere - Hamas being just so cynical with regards the civilian population as not being of any value to them, and even simply using the civilian deaths as part of their strategy - evoking so much public sympathy.

Is this what many who support the Palestinians also support though?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Which is as to what I commented elsewhere - Hamas being just so cynical with regards the civilian population as not being of any value to them, and even simply using the civilian deaths as part of their strategy - evoking so much public sympathy.

Is this what many who support the Palestinians also support though?

I'm glad you put it that way, because supporting the Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas. So the answer is "Of course not." But I have some additional thoughts on your post, which only addresses the lack of regard that Hamas has for the lives of Palestinians. It did not address the same lack of regard that the Netanyahu government has had for many years in its more or less unstated support for the existence of Hamas. Consider this opinion piece from The Times of Israel:

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces


Basically, the Palestinian population has had to live with rule by a terrorist organization, which it did not elect, with the tacit approval of governments that the Israelis did elect. The policy was never touted openly by Netanyahu and his supporters, but it was one of focusing on the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank at the expense of Palestinians living there. The strategy according to Netanyahu was to use Hamas to weaken and divide Palestinians, who vehemently opposed those settlements.

So, after years of the Israeli government's tacit support for Hamas, that terrorist organization has perpetrated a horrific attack against Israel, killing 1400 innocent people and taking hundreds hostage. Israel has responded by cutting off the entire population of Gaza from humanitarian supplies and ordering half the population to move south into "safe areas" that are also under bombardment by Israel. Hamas has its own stockpile of supplies, so it does not suffer as much as the general Palestinian population above its tunnels. Meanwhile, that population is left to the mercy of the attacking Israeli forces--mercy that is in incredibly short supply after the horrific attack by the Hamas terrorist organization. The one they didn't vote for, but that Israelis kind of voted for.

I don't support either the Israeli government or the Gaza government. Both are run by some pretty awful people. I support Palestinians and Israelis, and I support them working out their differences peacefully rather than violently. There is no military solution to this problem. The bombardment must end, and humanitarian aid must be restored to the Gaza Strip.
 
Last edited:

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
I'm glad you put it that way, because supporting the Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas. So the answer is "Of course not." But I have some additional thoughts on your post, which only addresses the lack of regard that Hamas has for the lives of Palestinians. It did not address the same lack of regard that the Netanyahu government has had for many years in its more or less unstated support for the existence of Hamas.
I doubt so many who march would support Hamas, but one reason why I couldn't join any march purely in support of Palestinians, given it might be seen as supporting Hamas. I would support any marching for peace in the region though.
Consider this opinion piece from The Times of Israel:

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces


Basically, the Palestinian population has had to live with rule by a terrorist organization, which it did not elect, with the tacit approval of governments that the Israelis did elect. The policy was never touted openly by Netanyahu and his supporters, but it was one of focusing on the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank at the expense of Palestinians living there. The strategy according to Netanyahu was to use Hamas to weaken and divide Palestinians, who vehemently opposed those settlements.

So, after years of the Israeli government's tacit support for Hamas, that terrorist organization has perpetrated a horrific attack against Israel, killing 1400 innocent people and taking hundreds hostage. Israel has responded by cutting off the entire population of Gaza from humanitarian supplies and ordering half the population to move south into "safe areas" that are also under bombardment by Israel. Hamas has its own stockpile of supplies, so it does not suffer as much as the general Palestinian population above its tunnels. Meanwhile, that population is left to the mercy of the attacking Israeli forces--mercy that is in incredibly short supply after the horrific attack by the Hamas terrorist organization. The one they didn't vote for, but that Israelis kind of voted for.
Quite informative. I don't follow the Middle East that much, and especially what various countries are up to, so I can well imagine why the Palestinians do have so many genuine grievances. I suspect the Hamas attack went far too well for them, given I doubt even they would have expected or wanted what has resulted from this, but in my view they do share a large part of the responsibility for the civilian deaths as much as the Israelis.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Quite informative. I don't follow the Middle East that much, and especially what various countries are up to, so I can well imagine why the Palestinians do have so many genuine grievances. I suspect the Hamas attack went far too well for them, given I doubt even they would have expected or wanted what has resulted from this, but in my view they do share a large part of the responsibility for the civilian deaths as much as the Israelis.

They do, but Hamas is not dropping those bombs on the Palestinian population, and Israel could choose to stop doing that. The IDF is explicitly going after any and all targets that they suspect are being used by Hamas, and it doesn't sound like they really have actionable intelligence so much as actionable suspicions. After all, they weren't that well connected with what was happening on the ground in the Gaza Strip before October 7, so why should their own intelligence now be able to tell them that an individual ambulance is being used by Hamas for a nefarious purpose? Yet that is what Israel announces whenever some large group of Israeli civilians, often including children, is blown up by bombardment from afar.

If Hamas is well supplied with water, power, medicine, etc., then what is the strategic value of cutting off such supplies to the general population? The counterattack has been going on for weeks now, and very few of the hostages held by Hamas have been released. Hamas has claimed that many have died in the Israeli bombardments, so it appears that the Israeli government has largely abandoned them. If they happen to be discovered during armed incursions into Gaza, then that's how they will be rescued, if at all. Netanyahu won't negotiate with Hamas terrorists, so those hostages can also be considered collateral damage along with the Palestinian civilians who can't escape the bombardment and who die for lack of humanitarian support.

Meanwhile, political support for the Biden government's pro-Israeli policy is evaporating rapidly, and I think that they are being caught by surprise at how quickly it is evaporating.

US warns Israel amid Gaza carnage it doesn’t have long before support erodes

 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
No, because another terrorist attack of that kind was neither immediate nor compelling at the time that Israel has been killing all of those civilians since the October 7 attack.

How in the world do you know that? Are you privy to Israeli or other intelligence about that? Hamas just said they'll happily commit another October 7th. They consider it fully justified and part of their mission to annihilate Israel. You don't think they're trying? You don't think they have more plans?

Nor is it clear that any of these actions will stop terrorist attacks in the future.

How will Hamas commit attacks if its ability to do so is eliminated? You're not seriously claiming that Israel ought to take zero military action against Hamas, are you?

Actually, it has.

Actually, it hasn't. It has not cut off all food and water and aid. It is allowing aid to enter Gaza. Do they need more? Of course. And by the way, Hamas has a responsibility to provide its supplies for the needs of its people.

Israel has had the military advantage all along, and it appears that they even had advance warnings that a terrorist attack was coming.

That part is true, and Netanyahu should be held to account for that. I'm not a Netanyahu or Likud fan.

Not only did they underestimate the scale of that attack. They ignored the warnings. There is no urgency now, and Israel is not in danger of losing its military advantage.

Again, how in the world can you say there is no urgency in preventing another attack? You just said Israel, despite its military advantage, underestimated Hamas' abilities. It was just able to kill 1,400 Israelis and injure over 3,000 others. That feels pretty damn urgent. Seems to me pretty obvious, then, that they have to ensure another attack doesn't happen. Disabling Hamas is the most obvious way to do that.

What it is doing is pure revenge. And not just against Hamas, but against the civilian population of the Gaza Strip that neither planned nor participated in the attack.

We disagree.

That's why people consider it a war crime. Civilian lives take precedence over military objectives. The fact that they didn't go from one area being bombed to another is no excuse. Besides, where would they go? Supplies of food, water, power, shelter, and medical aid are scarce everywhere. One Palestinian I saw interviewed had returned from the south to go back north. He said that, if he was going to die, he would rather it be in his own home. On NBC, an IDF Lt. Colonel explained that they had done everything they could to tell people to leave the north, but they chose to stay anyway. So, what were they supposed to do? Not drop bombs on civilians????

When we're dealing with a war zone where terrorists have converted civilian structures to military ones, the game changes.


I don't want any civilians to die. Gazans are stuck with an impossible set of choices. And by the way, so is Israel. That said, if Israel has committed war crimes, they must be held accountable and we must oppose that. But then we're back to square 1: what should they do?

My point is, there is no easy answer to that question. There is no obvious best strategy that I have seen. Every action has a cost (including the cost of not doing enough to disable Hamas). And I don't want Israel to commit the same mistakes the USA did during the Bush era. Occupation isn't the long-term answer. Genocidal Islamists remaining in power isn't the answer. So, what is? I support a two-state solution. But I have no idea how we get there.

Why not? There doesn't seem to be any excuse in the minds of the IDF not to kill human shields. What is the point of saying that it is a war crime then?

We disagree about IDF's approach.

I agree, and humanity has long agreed, that there ought to be rules of war.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
That's like saying PIRA existed because they hate the English. There's more to it than that, such as Israel corraling that many people into such a small area and economically repressing them.
It's like the history books painting Rome as the victim of "barbarians," people who were fighting against an oppressive and brutal state.

Antisemitism has a history in Islamist thought that goes back long before the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza or occupation of the West Bank or even the founding of the state of Israel. So it's obvious that more motivates their hatred than just the modern situation since 1967 or 2005.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
...No, because another terrorist attack of that kind was neither immediate nor compelling at the time that Israel has been killing all of those civilians since the October 7 attack.
How in the world do you know that? Are you privy to Israeli or other intelligence about that? Hamas just said they'll happily commit another October 7th. They consider it fully justified and part of their mission to annihilate Israel. You don't think they're trying? You don't think they have more plans?

Both of us know that Hamas is not capable of mounting another sneak attack, because the IDF has now established an impenetrable perimeter, and all Hamas has been able to do is launch their homemade rockets, most of which are wiped out by Iron Dome. Moreover, Israel had been experiencing such attacks daily before October 7, so, if Israel had no immediate or compelling need to use such lethal force then, it doesn't now. Hamas simply doesn't have the military strength to withstand the IDF. That's why they took hostages--as human shields to be used as bargaining chips in the mistaken belief that Israel would actually refrain from jeopardizing the lives of the hostages in a brutal counterattack. As for threats by individual Hamas leaders, I took those as vows of revenge. And no, I don't think that they thought much beyond having negotiations over hostages with the Israeli government. I doubt that they really got much beyond that rather simpleminded plan--invade, kill, capture, and negotiate.

How will Hamas commit attacks if its ability to do so is eliminated? You're not seriously claiming that Israel ought to take zero military action against Hamas, are you?

Of course not, but what was the rush to kill thousands of Palestinian civilians and put the hostages at risk? If Israel had acted with greater restraint, thousands of lives would have been saved. What they have now is a humanitarian catastrophe and a world that does not share the desire of the Israeli government to mete out revenge against not just Hamas, but the entire population of one of the most densely populated ethnic ghettoes in the world. Worse yet, the Netanyahu government created the conditions for the attack by strengthening Hamas in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank so that it could establish more illegal Israeli settlements there. The PA itself had rejected the kind of terrorist tactics that Hamas used on October 7 and had not ever rejected. The Palestinians did not vote to keep Hamas in power, but Israelis did vote for governments whose policy was to keep Hamas in power to help with its West Bank settlements policy.


Actually, it hasn't. It has not cut off all food and water and aid. It is allowing aid to enter Gaza. Do they need more? Of course. And by the way, Hamas has a responsibility to provide its supplies for the needs of its people.

I don't think you are paying attention at all. Nobody expects Hamas to act responsibly, and everyone expects Israel, as a civilized nation, to do so. All supplies must be constantly brought in from the outside. There are some intermittent power supplies, but almost all food, water, power, fuel, and medical supplies have been cut off, leaving only a small token number of trucks to fill needs that had relied on over 500 trucks of supplies per day in the past. And that is when they also had water and power coming from Israel to sustain the ghetto it had created.


Again, how in the world can you say there is no urgency in preventing another attack? You just said Israel, despite its military advantage, underestimated Hamas' abilities. It was just able to kill 1,400 Israelis and injure over 3,000 others. That feels pretty damn urgent. Seems to me pretty obvious, then, that they have to ensure another attack doesn't happen. Disabling Hamas is the most obvious way to do that.

Just give it some thought. What were conditions like at the border when Hamas attacked on October 7? What are they like now? What kind of military force to you think Hamas has to throw at the IDF, the best trained and equipped military in the entire region? Israel is within its rights to disable and destroy Hamas, but it has a responsibility to do so in a way that protects civilians living there who are not part of the Hamas terrorist organization. That cannot be done overnight, and it cannot be done by indiscriminate bombing from afar. It will be much harder and take longer to surgically remove the terrorist government organization that Netanyahu allowed to grow over time. Killing large numbers of noncombatants will only create more terrorist recruits among the survivors and be a public relations disaster for Israel, as well. It is also likely to seriously damage Israel's privileged relation with its largest supporter--the United States. Politically, this is a mess for any US administration, since what Israel does rubs off on us.

When we're dealing with a war zone where terrorists have converted civilian structures to military ones, the game changes.


Did you read that article? The IDF blew a huge crater in the densely populated Jabalya neighborhood to kill just one Hamas leader, and it isn't clear that they even got him. They did, however, get a lot of children along with adult civilians. They have also attacked ambulances, claiming they are being used by Hamas. (And how did they know? Anonymous tip from people who didn't tip them off about October 7?) Read the news and IDF explanations for their actions, and then see if what they are doing sounds like what your article describes. It looks like the opposite to me.

I don't want any civilians to die. Gazans are stuck with an impossible set of choices. And by the way, so is Israel. That said, if Israel has committed war crimes, they must be held accountable and we must oppose that. But then we're back to square 1: what should they do?

Stop digging. The hole is deep enough as it is, and they have retrieved very few of the Oct 7 hostages. They've already taken more lives than the Hamas terrorists did.

My point is, there is no easy answer to that question. There is no obvious best strategy that I have seen. Every action has a cost (including the cost of not doing enough to disable Hamas). And I don't want Israel to commit the same mistakes the USA did during the Bush era. Occupation isn't the long-term answer. Genocidal Islamists remaining in power isn't the answer. So, what is? I support a two-state solution. But I have no idea how we get there.

A pause in the killing and perhaps some reflection would help Israel to come up with a better solution, especially with the help of those who support it. Israel has already made the mistake of creating the massive Gaza Strip ghetto and actually allowing Hamas to build itself up there. Now it is paying a very dear cost for that, and the person responsible for that policy is still running the country. He isn't the best person to solve the problem he created, but the Knesset was elected by the Israeli public, and Netanyahu was the winner. The solution won't happen quickly, but what is the rush to blow up Gaza neighborhoods? Israel needs to change its tactics and become more methodical at rooting out Hamas. Personally, I think that Israel should try to bring in peacekeeping troops to supply aid and help prevent a resumption of hostilities. UN troops would be ideal, but I'm not sure that is feasible, given the demonization of the UN by Israel.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's like saying PIRA existed because they hate the English. There's more to it than that, such as Israel corraling that many people into such a small area and economically repressing them.
It's like the history books painting Rome as the victim of "barbarians," people who were fighting against an oppressive and brutal state.
It's interesting how those accusing others of
vile bigotry will justify it with vile bigotry.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Hamas, a Palestinian militant group, acquires smuggled weapons from Iran and also builds them in Gaza, according to the CIA.-- PolitiFact - Ask PolitiFact: Where does Hamas get its weapons?
"According to the CIA"
Isn't that the same organization that staged a coup
in Iran to replace an elected leader with the Shah,
& then lied about it?

While I wouldn't trust the CIA's word (unless
admitting a crime they've finally been caught at),
It would be likely that Iran supplies Hamas with
arms.
It's useful to understand Iran's perspective...
Israel is the major power in the region, & has
been an existential threat to Iran by using USA
to attack Iran, eg, the attack by Iraq that killed
nearly a million Iranians, urging USA to launch
a war against Iran.
Once again, one reaps what one sows.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
They do, but Hamas is not dropping those bombs on the Palestinian population, and Israel could choose to stop doing that. The IDF is explicitly going after any and all targets that they suspect are being used by Hamas, and it doesn't sound like they really have actionable intelligence so much as actionable suspicions. After all, they weren't that well connected with what was happening on the ground in the Gaza Strip before October 7, so why should their own intelligence now be able to tell them that an individual ambulance is being used by Hamas for a nefarious purpose? Yet that is what Israel announces whenever some large group of Israeli civilians, often including children, is blown up by bombardment from afar.

If Hamas is well supplied with water, power, medicine, etc., then what is the strategic value of cutting off such supplies to the general population? The counterattack has been going on for weeks now, and very few of the hostages held by Hamas have been released. Hamas has claimed that many have died in the Israeli bombardments, so it appears that the Israeli government has largely abandoned them. If they happen to be discovered during armed incursions into Gaza, then that's how they will be rescued, if at all. Netanyahu won't negotiate with Hamas terrorists, so those hostages can also be considered collateral damage along with the Palestinian civilians who can't escape the bombardment and who die for lack of humanitarian support.

Meanwhile, political support for the Biden government's pro-Israeli policy is evaporating rapidly, and I think that they are being caught by surprise at how quickly it is evaporating.

US warns Israel amid Gaza carnage it doesn’t have long before support erodes

I'm in no position to answer much of this, and I suspect that most of us aren't. As to the hostages, well as in all cases of such blackmail, it is usually advisory to never negotiate - given such just encourages this kind of action - but we know that often negotiation does occur behind the scenes. I just wonder how many Palestinians might think themselves at all responsible for what Hamas did and/or the reply from Israel.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm in no position to answer much of this, and I suspect that most of us aren't. As to the hostages, well as in all cases of such blackmail, it is usually advisory to never negotiate - given such just encourages this kind of action - but we know that often negotiation does occur behind the scenes. I just wonder how many Palestinians might think themselves at all responsible for what Hamas did and/or the reply from Israel.
The policy of refusing to negotiate for hostages is highly
context dependent. If dealing with a player who's rational
& motived by net gain, it could be useful if that party knows
there's no profit to be found by taking hostages. But as
you say, leaders often negotiate anyway (because of public
relations that politicians crave).

But in Gaza, children grow up dysfunctional because of the
unceasing violence around & against them, primarily by
Israel. Their reactions to, & attitudes about violence aren't
normal. They easily become radicalized & violent, ready
to lash out at the oppressor in the only ways available to
them. Negotiation for hostages is different because hostage
taking is less about profit calculation than resisting the
ongoing oppression.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
The policy of refusing to negotiate for hostages is highly
context dependent. If dealing with a player who's rational
& motived by net gain, it could be useful if that party knows
there's no profit to be found by taking hostages.
I can't really answer as to what happens behind the scenes or as to how the Israeli authorities have to manage this situation.
But in Gaza, children grow up dysfunctional because of the
unceasing violence around & against them, primarily by
Israel. Their reactions to, & attitudes about violence aren't
normal. They easily become radicalized & violent.
Negotiation for hostages could possibly be useful because
later hostage taking is less about profit than resisting
continuing oppression.
Primarily by Israel? When perhaps they are taught to hate Israel and Jews from a young age. How can they grow up with any reasonable attitudes?
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Primarily by Israel? When perhaps they are taught to hate Israel and Jews from a young age. How can they grow up with any reasonable attitude?
Israel teaches Palestinian children to hate Israel.
Israel teaches adult Palestinians to hate Israel.
The hatred is fully justified.
The cure.
Israel should stop behaving in a hateful way.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
Israel teaches Palestinian children to hate Israel.
Israel teaches adult Palestinians to hate Israel.
The hatred is fully justified.
The cure.
Israel should stop behaving in a hateful way.
The cure
Hamas should stop behaving in a hateful way.

Hatred is never fully justified. It is just a particular version of history. o_O
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The cure
Hamas should stop behaving in a hateful way.
When the oppressed react violently, the problem
needing to be addressed is the oppression.
Telling the oppressed to just peacefully endure it
won't work. Israel might exterminate most of
Hamas, but another organization....or perhaps
the same one will again arise.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
When the oppressed react violently, the problem
needing to be addressed is the oppression.
Telling the oppressed to just peacefully endure it
won't work. Israel might exterminate most of
Hamas, but another organization....or perhaps
the same one will again arise.
I'm sure it will, and such will get squashed just the same. I don't have any solutions for such conflicts.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Your drivel is becoming increasingly noxious -- so many pathetically inane assertions, yet no demand that the Hamas release the hostages.
*Mod edit*
To expect a poster here to demand that Hamas
release the hostages is absurd. It smacks of an
ad hominem dismissal of the poster.
Even if Hamas did read RF posts, we gadflies
have no authority over them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top