Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

[Rival]

HAMAS is but a few rogue extemist.

What? Hamas is the government of the Gaza strip, not just some dudes.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Who even mentioned you? I was replying to Left Coast.

I don't how I managed to screw that up, but I did -- badly -- and I apologize.

 

[InChrist]

HAMAS is but a few rogue extemist. They did not build the fences or shut off the supply lines.

Nothing Jewish about the state of israel except the stealing of the label (name).

Israel DOES NOT represent the Jews of this world.


Israel bombing civilians has not just ruined israel's reputation but now having jews turn against israel

For some Jewish peace activists, demands for a cease-fire ...​

NPR
https://www.npr.org › 2023/10/28 › for-some-jewish-pea...



4 days ago — Jewish Americans critical of how Israel and the U.S. are responding to Hamas' attack say they're ostracized by the mainstream


Funny, you know the atrocities are occurring and can only deny what IS REAL.

What do you think jesus would say to you personally about that stance?

Hamas, from what I understand may number 30-40,000; not exactly a “few” extremists. Israel built fences for protection against so many extreme, violent terrorists and their continual attacks against Israeli people. Except for short term, emergency situations Israel does/has not shut off supply lines.

“Israeli liaison says the territory is receiving 28.5 million liters of potable water a day, insists there is ‘no shortage’ of food.”​

Israel reopens second of three water pipelines into Gaza

Israeli liaison says the territory is receiving 28.5 million liters of potable water a day, insists there is 'no shortage' of food

www.timesofisrael.com

I have no idea what you are implying when you say this…
“Israel DOES NOT represent the Jews of this world.”

Maybe you mean that there are many Jews who disagree with the government of Israel. In that regard you are probably correct, especially concerning the mindset of the more progressive, leftist Jews. But I doubt even those would agree that Israel does not have the right to exist or that the nation of Israel should be wiped off the map and Jews exterminated…which is the ultimate goal of Hamas. I also think that progressive Jews, who have adamantly been pro-Palestinian are beginning to see just how much hatred is being spewed against not only Israel, but the Jewish people themselves

 

[Orbit]

Hamas, from what I understand may number 30-40,000; not exactly a “few” extremists. Israel built fences for protection against so many extreme, violent terrorists and their continual attacks against Israeli people. Except for short term, emergency situations Israel does/has not shut off supply lines.

“Israeli liaison says the territory is receiving 28.5 million liters of potable water a day, insists there is ‘no shortage’ of food.”​

Israel reopens second of three water pipelines into Gaza

Israeli liaison says the territory is receiving 28.5 million liters of potable water a day, insists there is 'no shortage' of food

www.timesofisrael.com

I have no idea what you are implying when you say this…
“Israel DOES NOT represent the Jews of this world.”

Maybe you mean that there are many Jews who disagree with the government of Israel. In that regard you are probably correct, especially concerning the mindset of the more progressive, leftist Jews. But I doubt even those would agree that Israel does not have the right to exist or that the nation of Israel should be wiped off the map and Jews exterminated…which is the ultimate goal of Hamas. I also think that progressive Jews, who have adamantly been pro-Palestinian are beginning to see just how much hatred is being spewed against not only Israel, but the Jewish people themselves

The estimate I saw for membership in Hamas was 2,000 to 4,000. Where are you getting your numbers from?

Edited to add: I found this; 20,000 to 25,000

National Counterterrorism Center | FTOs

Contains many features across the full range of issues pertaining to international terrorism: terrorist groups, wanted terrorists, and technical pages on various threat-related topics

www.dni.gov

 

[Revoltingest]

It appears to me, by failing to be able to offer any specific criticisms of Israel's military strategy beyond slogans....

Pray tell...which if my answers to the question
of how Israel should fight Hamas is a "slogan"?

, that your criticisms have little weight. So again, when you want to actually be specific, let me know. I'll be curious what you come up with.

IOW, you approve of what Israel does,
but you're unwilling to face the fact
that they committed & war crimes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel is not preventing water, fuel or food from reaching Gaza. On the contrary, it is Hamas depriving their own people.

One can view it that way, ie, that Hamas is the
reason Israel enforces an embargo on the basics
of life for Gazan Palestinians. But I give Israel
responsibility for the actions it chooses from
the available alternatives.

“One of the most pernicious lies that continues to be spread about Israel is the claim that the Jewish state purposefully denies the local Palestinian population access to drinking water, effectively creating a water-related humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza.

I argue that denial of Israel's war crimes is the big lie.
And worst of all, my tax dollars finance USA leaders
to perpetrate the lie.

This libel, which is spread by influencers on social media, by a number of news organizations and by key NGOs, is usually based on a number of false and misleading assertions: That Israeli authorities withhold water from local Palestinians, that Israel steals water that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians and that Israel purposefully pollutes Palestinian water sources.

As will be seen, all of these allegations have no basis in fact and are solely meant to taint Israel’s reputation in the international arena.”

Watering Down the Facts: Israel, the Palestinians & Access to Water | HonestReporting

A deconstruction of the lies about Israel, the Palestinians and access to water in the West Bank and Gaza.

honestreporting.com

Is Israel’s 'Siege' Denying Water and Food to Gaza? Just the Facts

After horrific mass terror attacks by Hamas, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant announced a “complete siege” of Gaza: 'There will be no electricity, no food,

www.camera.org

“Have you been listening to the BBC, or Canal Cinq, or CNN, or NPR, on the situation in Gaza? Have you been reading The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Guardian? If so, then you are no doubt convinced that there is a “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza, that Israel alone is at fault — “there is no food, no water, no fuel, and the situation is dire,” and the “crisis” can only end when Israel agrees to a “ceasefire.” It isn’t true.”

Israel Helps Remedy the So-Called ‘Humanitarian Crisis’ in Gaza

Have you been listening to the BBC, or Canal Cinq, or CNN, or NPR, on the situation in Gaza? Have you been reading The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Guardian? If so, then you are no doubt convinced that there is a “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza, that Israel alone is at fault --...

www.jihadwatch.org

It's odd that pro-Israel pro-Jewish sources
(eg, NPR) would lie to benefit Hamas.

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel is not preventing water, fuel or food from reaching Gaza. On the contrary, it is Hamas depriving their own people.

One can view it that way, ie, that Hamas is the
reason Israel enforces an embargo on the basics
of life for Gazan Palestinians. But I give Israel
responsibility for the actions it chooses from
the available alternatives.

“One of the most pernicious lies that continues to be spread about Israel is the claim that the Jewish state purposefully denies the local Palestinian population access to drinking water, effectively creating a water-related humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza.

I argue that denial of Israel's war crimes is the big lie.
And worst of all, my tax dollars finance USA leaders
to perpetrate the lie.

This libel, which is spread by influencers on social media, by a number of news organizations and by key NGOs, is usually based on a number of false and misleading assertions: That Israeli authorities withhold water from local Palestinians, that Israel steals water that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians and that Israel purposefully pollutes Palestinian water sources.

As will be seen, all of these allegations have no basis in fact and are solely meant to taint Israel’s reputation in the international arena.”

Watering Down the Facts: Israel, the Palestinians & Access to Water | HonestReporting

A deconstruction of the lies about Israel, the Palestinians and access to water in the West Bank and Gaza.

honestreporting.com

Is Israel’s 'Siege' Denying Water and Food to Gaza? Just the Facts

After horrific mass terror attacks by Hamas, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant announced a “complete siege” of Gaza: 'There will be no electricity, no food,

www.camera.org

“Have you been listening to the BBC, or Canal Cinq, or CNN, or NPR, on the situation in Gaza? Have you been reading The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Guardian? If so, then you are no doubt convinced that there is a “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza, that Israel alone is at fault — “there is no food, no water, no fuel, and the situation is dire,” and the “crisis” can only end when Israel agrees to a “ceasefire.” It isn’t true.”

Israel Helps Remedy the So-Called ‘Humanitarian Crisis’ in Gaza

Have you been listening to the BBC, or Canal Cinq, or CNN, or NPR, on the situation in Gaza? Have you been reading The New York Times, The Washington Post, or The Guardian? If so, then you are no doubt convinced that there is a “humanitarian crisis” in Gaza, that Israel alone is at fault --...

www.jihadwatch.org

It's odd that pro-Israel sources
would lie to benefit Hamas.

 

[Bthoth]

Hamas, from what I understand may number 30-40,000; not exactly a “few” extremists.

From what 'understanding'? Another israelis publication or do you have direct contact with HAMAS with a recruiters list?

You have no idea but perhaps watched a media report, right?

Israel built fences for protection against so many extreme, violent terrorists and their continual attacks against Israeli people. Except for short term, emergency situations Israel does/has not shut off supply lines.

Land, air and sea... GAZA is shut off and israel controls even fishing

“Israeli liaison says the territory is receiving 28.5 million liters of potable water a day, insists there is ‘no shortage’ of food.”​

Again, Israeli claims.... nothing by UN or gaza representatives.

I have no idea what you are implying when you say this…
“Israel DOES NOT represent the Jews of this world.”

The global population of Jews far exceeds what israel has. Meaning, more Jews live in the America's than all of israel. And then many that live over here are dual citizens but will not live there.

Maybe you mean that there are many Jews who disagree with the government of Israel.

Lots of many.

In that regard you are probably correct,

I know. I have been in contact with many, even today

especially concerning the mindset of the more progressive, leftist Jews.

Progress is a good term. Not oppressive or dross, which is what tanakh warned about

But I doubt even those would agree that Israel does not have the right to exist

I dont know of any Jew specifically or honest human mind that would claim that israel has no right to exist. You are a bit outlandish with that claim.

or that the nation of Israel should be wiped off the map and Jews exterminated…

Another whacked idea

which is the ultimate goal of Hamas.

Not talking about HAMAS

I also think that progressive Jews, who have adamantly been pro-Palestinian are beginning to see just how much hatred is being spewed against not only Israel, but the Jewish people themselves

I know, israel has caused more damage to Jews worldwide than ever helped.

That is what you are missing as the point. Israel DOES NOT represent the jews of the world. That was my comment. The crazy additions are your ideas, not mine or any rational mind.

 

[InChrist]

The estimate I saw for membership in Hamas was 2,000 to 4,000. Where are you getting your numbers from?

Here…


Hamas said it has 40,000 fighters, while Israel said the force is about 30,000, according to The Associated Press.

MSN

And here…

Hamas's military wing, the Al Qassam Brigades, is estimated to number 30,000 to 40,000, not including thousands of militants with other groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

The ‘Devil’s Playground’ of Urban Combat That Israel Is Preparing to Enter (Published 2023)

A ground invasion in Gaza could produce some of the fiercest street-to-street fighting since World War II.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Orbit]

Here…


Hamas said it has 40,000 fighters, while Israel said the force is about 30,000, according to The Associated Press.

MSN

And here…

Hamas's military wing, the Al Qassam Brigades, is estimated to number 30,000 to 40,000, not including thousands of militants with other groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

The ‘Devil’s Playground’ of Urban Combat That Israel Is Preparing to Enter (Published 2023)

A ground invasion in Gaza could produce some of the fiercest street-to-street fighting since World War II.

www.nytimes.com

I trust the U.S. government Counter-terrorism Center site that I linked to more than I trust your source.

In addition, here is a survey done before the attack about how much Palestinians support or don't support Hamas:

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas

Before the war, Gaza’s leaders were deeply unpopular—but an Israeli crackdown could change that.

www.foreignaffairs.com

 

[Left Coast]

Pray tell...which if my answers to the question
of how Israel should fight Hamas is a "slogan"?

For one, "don't commit war crimes" without specifying what that means. "Indiscriminate bombing" without any explanation or evidence of how Israel decides what to fire missiles at and how they should do it differently.

IOW, you approve of what Israel does,
but you're unwilling to face the fact
that they committed & war crimes.

This is silliness. Just the other day you said we should not think in black and white or good and bad terms about this conflict. If that's the case, then some blanket "approval of what Israel does" or "disapproval of what Israel does" is naive and unserious. Neither you nor I, I would bet money, have the military expertise to know exactly what the situation looks like there and whether Israel should fire any particular missile or bullet that they do or don't fire and exactly how they should do so.

So no, your summary of my view is a caricature. And you should know better.

 

[Orbit]

For one, "don't commit war crimes" without specifying what that means. "Indiscriminate bombing" without any explanation or evidence of how Israel decides what to fire missiles at and how they should do it differently.



This is silliness. Just the other day you said we should not think in black and white or good and bad terms about this conflict. If that's the case, then some blanket "approval of what Israel does" or "disapproval of what Israel does" is naive and unserious. Neither you nor I, I would bet money, have the military expertise to know exactly what the situation looks like there and whether Israel should fire any particular missile or bullet that they do or don't fire and exactly how they should do so.

So no, your summary of my view is a caricature. And you should know better.

You want what "war crimes are" specified? I gave you a link laying that out before. Plus, there's this:

Statement by UNICEF on the deaths and injuries of children in Jabaliya camp

www.unicef.org

Israel can do whatever it wants within international law, but war crimes are not within international law.

War crimes defined, again, another source:

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

 

[Left Coast]

You want what "war crimes are" specified? I gave you a link laying that out before. Plus, there's this:

Statement by UNICEF on the deaths and injuries of children in Jabaliya camp

www.unicef.org

Israel can do whatever it wants within international law, but war crimes are not within international law.

War crimes defined, again, another source:

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

No, what I wanted was a specification of which of Israel's attacks have been war crimes and how.

Now, let's say for sake of argument that some of what Israel has done violates international law, like this attack on the refugee camp. Okay. Has Hamas violated international law in this conflict? Please tell me your answer is yes. Hamas gives zero ****s about international law.

So in that case, we've got two sides of a conflict who have, in some ways at some times, violated international law. Now what?

Does this mean there should be an "immediate ceasefire" as that UNICEF statement calls for? Of course it doesn't. Does that mean we should oppose Israel defending itself or disabling Hamas' ability to commit another terrorist attack? Again, of course not. Does it mean the two sides are just equally awful and we just can't possibly have any idea which side we generally support, the Islamists or the liberal democracy? Again, of course not.

So again my question to you earlier today becomes relevant: what is Israel actually allowed to do in concrete terms to disable Hamas and defend itself? Judging by the sources you cite, you want them to immediately stop fighting and open their borders. Neither of those solutions are realistic or wise. So what else?

 

[Orbit]

No, what I wanted was a specification of which of Israel's attacks have been war crimes and how.

Now, let's say for sake of argument that some of what Israel has done violates international law, like this attack on the refugee camp. Okay. Has Hamas violated international law in this conflict? Please tell me your answer is yes. Hamas gives zero ****s about international law.

So in that case, we've got two sides of a conflict who have, in some ways at some times, violated international law. Now what?

Does this mean there should be an "immediate ceasefire" as that UNICEF statement calls for? Of course it doesn't. Does that mean we should oppose Israel defending itself or disabling Hamas' ability to commit another terrorist attack? Again, of course not. Does it mean the two sides are just equally awful and we just can't possibly have any idea which side we generally support, the Islamists or the liberal democracy? Again, of course not.

So again my question to you earlier today becomes relevant: what is Israel actually allowed to do in concrete terms to disable Hamas and defend itself? Judging by the sources you cite, you want them to immediately stop fighting and open their borders. Neither of those solutions are realistic or wise. So what else?

I will repeat: two wrongs don't make a right. War crimes are bad no matter who does them.

Your assumptions about "what I want" are incorrect. What I want is no more war crimes.

What can Israel do? Anything their military strategists come up with that is within international law.

The Israeli war crimes you want me to list seem pretty obvious, given attacks on, and deaths of ambulance drivers, doctors, U.N. humanitarian workers, Palestinian civilians, especially children (who make up roughly half of the population). The war crimes of Hamas are equally obvious: murder and the taking of hostages.

War crimes as excerpted from the U.N. document:

Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;

Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict

Destroying or seizing the enemy's property unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war; (see West Bank attacks)

Declaring that no quarter will be given; (see comments from Netanyahu and other Israeli/IDF officials)

 

[Left Coast]

I will repeat: two wrongs don't make a right. War crimes are bad no matter who does them.

On that we agree.

Your assumptions about "what I want" are incorrect. What I want is no more war crimes.

On that we agree.

What can Israel do? Anything their military strategists come up with that is within international law.

Yeah, but that's exactly the rub, O. What is within international law in this conflict in which Israel is fighting an enemy that embeds itself in civilian populations and uses civilian infrastructure, including even using ambulances for transport of fighters and firing rockets from hospitals, schools, mosques? A war in a densely populated urban area that Israel and Hamas have given contradictory directions for civilians to evacuate? I don't pretend to know the answer to that question.

 

[Copernicus]

You tell me. [What advice would you give that father? I would like to hear it so that I could comfort the October 7 victims in the same way, because I am at a loss as to what you say to the victims of terrorist attacks.]

We're done.

I restored the part you didn't want to respond to in my reply to you. If you can't answer your own question when it comes to innocent Palestinians who are victims, then I don't understand how you can expect me to answer it when it comes to innocent Israelis. I do not in any way condone what Hamas terrorists did to their innocent victims on October 7, and I would never be able to say anything to alleviate their suffering. I feel the same way about innocent victims of Israeli bombings in Gaza. That was my answer to you, because I am not trying to justify the creation of victims on either side of this decades long blood feud. All I can say is that both sides have to stop creating innocent victims on the other side, if they ever expect the violence to come to an end. That is why international law prescribes the protection of civilian lives as paramount in the conduct of war.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah, but that's exactly the rub, O. What is within international law in this conflict in which Israel is fighting an enemy that embeds itself in civilian populations and uses civilian infrastructure, including even using ambulances for transport of fighters and firing rockets from hospitals, schools, mosques? A war in a densely populated urban area that Israel and Hamas have given contradictory directions for civilians to evacuate? I don't pretend to know the answer to that question.

You either have to police the hell out of it and arrest Hamas members and hold trials or learn what lead to Hamas amd perpetuates their existence amd work towards ameliorating that to snuff out Hamas that way.

 

[Revoltingest]

For one, "don't commit war crimes" without specifying what that means. "Indiscriminate bombing"

Those terms need definition, perhaps
because they're too obscure?

War crime - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Collective punishment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

without any explanation or evidence of how Israel decides what to fire missiles at and how they should do it differently.

Israel admitted prioritizing destruction
over accuracy. The toll of death &
destruction confirms this.

This is silliness. Just the other day you said we should not think in black and white or good and bad terms about this conflict. If that's the case, then some blanket "approval of what Israel does" or "disapproval of what Israel does" is naive and unserious.

I read your posts for what they say,
& what they avoid. It is what it is.

Neither you nor I, I would bet money, have the military expertise to know exactly what the situation looks like there and whether Israel should fire any particular missile or bullet that they do or don't fire and exactly how they should do so.

Lack of expertise doesn't justify war crimes.

So no, your summary of my view is a caricature. And you should know better.

You object to my characterization of your
view, but you don't offer an alternative.
And for one so keen on evidence &
definitions, I've seen bupkis in your posts.

 

[metis]

Do you have recorded evidence or just opinions as evidence?

Why is that? How could Iran be the head of the problem?

is it because they have 38 million and israel is afraid that sooner or later, they will not be able to hold back?

Or is it because the ayatollah created the "RED LINE" that isreal "will not touch that mount" and israel believes him?

Starting a war with iran, is not what "WE the People" are for. STOP IT!

Maybe do the homework, plus I didn't and don't recommend attacking Iran.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/26/1208456496/iran-hamas-axis-of-resistance-hezbollah-israel

 

[Bthoth]

Maybe do the homework, plus I didn't and don't recommend attacking Iran.

Lots of people write lots of rubbish.

When the ayatollah claims that they are arming HAMAS, then I can believe it.

But israeli media rhetoric or online ranting is not evidence.