Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

[Revoltingest]

I'm sure it will, and such will get squashed just the same. I don't have any solutions for such conflicts.

How about Israel ending the oppression of Palestinians?
Or should that continue...& if so, why?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The cure
Hamas should stop behaving in a hateful way.

Hatred is never fully justified. It is just a particular version of history.

Hamas didn't just arise because they hate Jews, no more than places like Iran calling America the Great Satan because they hate America. The PIRA did not arise because they hated the English.
It is a fact Israel has forced Palestinians into uncomfortably cramped and small territories, Israel is known for killing those who are regular not supposed to be targeted (like children, journalists and aid workers) when they attack, amd they have admited to economically repressing the Palestinians. We have seen this so many, many times throughout history and those in the position of the Palestinians frequently fight back against their reoressors. But what we see so many doing with Israel is no different than defending Rome and calling them the victims for getting raided, attacked, and the city itself sacked a few times by "barbarians," but leaving out those "barbarians" were people who were being militarily dominated, economically repressed, enslaved and slaughtered and made to live in fear. We call them barbarians but the history books rarely acknowledge Rome militarized many peoples as a response to Rome (such as the Gauls).
But America likes Empires and military might, amd it loves it's White Jesus and being the big daddy protector and defender of his personally hand picked and chosen people (an extremely problematic concept to begin with the assumption of divine superiority). It hates victims, loves the strong, and holds firm in its erroneous belief that whatever happens to you is your own fault. We can't even kill off the atrocious and heinous belief that bullying is a right of passage that needs to happen so it's no surprise so many Americans are defending god's own militarily pumped bullies.

 

[Mock Turtle]

How about Israel ending the oppression of Palestinians?
Or should that continue...& if so, why?

How about Hamas not use stupid violence tactics - given they must know what they would get in return and martyrdom is fine when the people being martyred have signed up for this?

Hamas didn't just arise because they hate Jews, no more than places like Iran calling America the Great Satan because they hate America. The PIRA did not arise because they hated the English.
It is a fact Israel has forced Palestinians into uncomfortably cramped and small territories, Israel is known for killing those who are regular not supposed to be targeted (like children, journalists and aid workers) when they attack, amd they have admited to economically repressing the Palestinians. We have seen this so many, many times throughout history and those in the position of the Palestinians frequently fight back against their reoressors. But what we see so many doing with Israel is no different than defending Rome and calling them the victims for getting raided, attacked, and the city itself sacked a few times by "barbarians," but leaving out those "barbarians" were people who were being militarily dominated, economically repressed, enslaved and slaughtered and made to live in fear. We call them barbarians but the history books rarely acknowledge Rome militarized many peoples as a response to Rome (such as the Gauls).
But America likes Empires and military might, amd it loves it's White Jesus and being the big daddy protector and defender of his personally hand picked and chosen people (an extremely problematic concept to begin with the assumption of divine superiority). It hates victims, loves the strong, and holds firm in its erroneous belief that whatever happens to you is your own fault. We can't even kill off the atrocious and heinous belief that bullying is a right of passage that needs to happen so it's no surprise so many Americans are defending god's own militarily pumped bullies.

Whatever, the way forward isn't for Hamas to provoke Israel like they have done - so as to probably make the situation much worse. Given that such is just being cynical towards those Hamas is supposed to be responsible for - making it worse for them than better.

 

[Revoltingest]

How about Hamas not use stupid violence tactics - given they must know what they would get in return and martyrdom is fine when the people being martyred have signed up for this?

The oppressed, being relatively weaker will be both
angry & restricted to using unconventional warfare.
I'm not saying it's right....or always wrong.
But it is an inexorable consequence of oppression,
eg, Indians here massacred settlers, slaves revolted
against the slavers. The oppression had to end for
peace to reign.
USA also said those people couldn't be reasoned
with either....they were lesser humans. They deserved
their lot in life, & whatever was done to them.

Whatever, the way forward isn't for Hamas to provoke Israel like they have done - so as to probably make the situation much worse.

Alas, because Israel continued oppressing Palestinians
even when Hamas wasn't attacking on this vastly
increased hideous scale, Hamas was inspired to
respond as they did. This should be a wake up call
to Israel that their standard policy of oppression
is failing & will continue to fail.

Given that such is just being cynical towards those Hamas is supposed to be responsible for - making it worse for them than better.

You focus upon what is terrible about Hamas.
No solution will be found there. It's just seeking
blame to justify killing more Palestinians, & to
prevent them from living in Gaza.

Israel is the only country with the power to end
the oppression...the power to deflate hostility,
& inspire peace.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The oppressed, being relatively weaker will be both
angry & restricted to using unconventional warfare.
I'm not saying it's right....or always wrong.
But it is an inexorable consequence of oppression,
eg, Indians here massacred settlers, slaves revolted
against the slavers. The oppression had to end for
peace to reign.

Alas, because Israel continued oppressing Palestinians
even when Hamas wasn't attacking on this vastly
increased hideous scale, Hamas was inspired to
respond as they did. This should be a wake up call
to Israel that their standard policy of oppression
is failing & will continue to fail.

You focus upon what is terrible about Hamas.
No solution will be found there.
Israel is the only country with the power to end
the oppression, but it chooses only to increase it.

If you believe so then fine, but I doubt the solution is likely to come from Israel alone. Given that I doubt any other nation would not have responded as Israel has done if they had such capacity. So still laid at Hamas as the decision makers in this instance - as they weren't forced to do this.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you believe so then fine, but I doubt the solution is likely to come from Israel alone.

No, it will require a sea change in US foreign policy,
ie, holding Israel accountable if it's to continue
receiving massive financial & military support.
I don't think Israel is culturally able on its own to
see Palestinians as worthy of equal human rights.

Given that I doubt any other nation would not have responded as Israel has done if they had such capacity. So still laid at Hamas as the decision makers in this instance - as they weren't forced to do this.

You don't address Israel's decisions to keep
Palestinians oppressed politically & economically.
Giving Israel tacit permission, & even financial
subsidy to do that is harming not just Palestinians,
but also Israel.

 

[Mock Turtle]

No, it will require a sea change in US foreign policy,
ie, holding Israel accountable if it's to continue
receiving massive financial & military support.
I don't think Israel is culturally able on its own to
see Palestinians as worthy of equal human rights.

Works both ways that - given how Hamas apparently see Jews and Israel as a whole.

You don't address Israel's decisions to keep
Palestinians oppressed politically & economically.
Giving Israel tacit permission, & even financial
subsidy to do that is harming not just Palestinians,
but also Israel.

How could I, given I'm no expert on such, but situations don't generally arise from the actions of one party alone.

 

[Copernicus]

Your drivel is becoming increasingly noxious -- so many pathetically inane assertions, yet no demand that the Hamas release the hostages.

*Mod edit*

I don't put people on ignore lists, because their only purpose seems to be to announce to the world that I am putting someone on my ignore list. What I do instead, is I just ignore them. I have ignored posts of yours before, but I have also enjoyed some of them and agreed with some of them, so I don't always ignore you.

However, you are right that I have not yet demanded from Hamas that it release the hostages. I now do so publicly and emphatically. Let's see how that works out. I am also demanding that Israel stop bombing innocent Palestinian men, women, and children in the Gaza Strip and restore all humanitarian aid. You could add your voice to mine, but, come to think of it, I haven't seen any demands from you for Hamas to release hostages or Israel to stop bombing innocent people. Join with me, and perhaps we can get them to stop.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How about Hamas not use stupid violence tactics - given they must know what they would get in return and martyrdom is fine when the people being martyred have signed up for this?

How about Israel not ignore the historical reality that what they are doing is creating their own worst enemy (a bad trait they learned from Uncle Sam, maybe?)?

Whatever, the way forward isn't for Hamas to provoke Israel like they have done - so as to probably make the situation much worse.

Israel has committed war crimes of their own volition. What they are doing is not self defense, it is not an act against Hamas. They are the punishing the Palestinians for existing and living under a sham of a government that so very many of them did not vote for.

Given that such is just being cynical towards those Hamas is supposed to be responsible for - making it worse for them than better.

That is entirely on Israel. There is absolutely no reason for their bombing and killing of civilians as they have, no reason for blocking the entry of necessary supplies, and absolutely no damn reason to make regular Palestinians suffer as they have.
Israel apparently knows who they are looking for. Why not let others flee the violence rather than herding them even closer together to bomb them in order to allegedly one Hamas target?
It is entirely Israel's fault amd responsibility for making things worse, such as bombing refugee camps and where they told civilians to go to. What they (amd so many others) are doing is holding all Palestenians guilty and they are indiscriminately slaughtering. That is a war crime.

 

[Revoltingest]

Works both ways that - given how Hamas apparently see Jews and Israel as a whole.

Primary responsibility lies with the more powerful
party to the hostility...the one doing the oppressing,
& that is Israel. It could unilaterally decide to achieve
peace. Palestinians, an unorganized group of victims,
lack that unity & ability (ie, they're not the ones doing
the oppressing).

How could I, given I'm no expert on such, but situations don't generally arise from the actions of one party alone.

To weigh in on one side does
require understanding the other.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm in no position to answer much of this, and I suspect that most of us aren't. As to the hostages, well as in all cases of such blackmail, it is usually advisory to never negotiate - given such just encourages this kind of action - but we know that often negotiation does occur behind the scenes. I just wonder how many Palestinians might think themselves at all responsible for what Hamas did and/or the reply from Israel.

In smaller settings--when the police surround a building where hostages are being held--they call in hostage negotiators, who actually have expertise and training at defusing the situation and getting the hostages released. The situation with Hamas is very different because of the unique circumstances that led up to it. However, the way it could have worked without all of the bombing of densely populated neighborhoods, would have been for Israel to use the international horror and revulsion felt towards what Hamas did and then try to engage other countries to help with the negotiations to get those hostages released. I feel that there was an opportunity lost, in part, because Israelis have become used to a status quo in which they did not need to acknowledge the legitimate concerns that Palestinians have over being forced to live in an apartheid state.

There is a peace movement in Israel that seeks reconciliation with Palestinian Arabs and resolution to the conflicts, but the Netanyahu governments have consistently opposed it. And it isn't favored by the majority of Israelis, apparently. The gradual absorption of the West Bank into Israel and some vague ideas about how to get the Palestinian problem to fade away seems to have been what they were aiming for, as best I could make of it. Somehow that was all gradually going to work out in Israel's favor. If only the surrounding Arab states would absorb the Palestinian population, then everyone could live in peace. Even now, I think that a lot of Israelis believe that that is where this is all going to end up--Jordan and Egypt will help solve their Palestinian problem for them, just as the British once helped Europe solve its Jewish problem after WWII. Egypt and Jordan don't seem too eager to agree, but they don't have a bunch of outsiders running their countries and making them do it anyway.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Primary responsibility lies with the more powerful
party to the hostility...the one doing the oppressing,
& that is Israel. It could unilaterally decide to achieve
peace. Palestinians, an unorganized group of victims,
lack that unity & ability (ie, they're not the ones doing
the oppressing).

It would probably be very difficult to sift this out if it's there, but I wonder to what extent, if any, that more general and at large resentment amd hatred towards the poor and less fortunate play into this mentality that throws a blanket of guilt over all Palestinians.
We can definitely say for sure however it is unworthy of consideration for so many that most Palestinians, not even those in Gaza, then or now, voted for Hamas.

 

[Lyndon]

The west bank did not vote for Hamas, last pole had Hamas at 22% of the vote

 

[Bthoth]

Antisemitism has a history in Islamist thought that goes back long before the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza or occupation of the West Bank or even the founding of the state of Israel. So it's obvious that more motivates their hatred than just the modern situation since 1967 or 2005.

Do you have any idea what it is?

It sure is not that a Jew follows the commandments and does what is right by choice.

So what would be the cause of people having such a problem?

ps....
Se·mit·ic

1. relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
   
   2. relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.
   
   
   
   
   Be nice if people would fix the problem and use of the term semitic.
   
   
   
   

 

[Bthoth]

The cure
Hamas should stop behaving in a hateful way.

Hatred is never fully justified. It is just a particular version of history.

You do have a point.

Starting point, illegal occupation is wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would probably be very difficult to sift this out if it's there, but I wonder to what extent, if any, that more general and at large resentment amd hatred towards the poor and less fortunate play into this mentality that throws a blanket of guilt over all Palestinians.
We can definitely say for sure however it is unworthy of consideration for so many that most Palestinians, not even those in Gaza, then or now, voted for Hamas.

I don't begrudge desperate people who might've
voted for Hamas so many years ago. Who'd have
expected the recent brutal attack by Hamas, eh.

 

[Left Coast]

Do you have any idea what it is?

It sure is not that a Jew follows the commandments and does what is right by choice.

So what would be the cause of people having such a problem?

ps....
Se·mit·ic

1. relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
   
   2. relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.
   
   
   
   
   Be nice if people would fix the problem and use of the term semitic.
   
   
   

It would be nice if you would stop trying to pedantically nitpick word choice when you (should) know what's being said.

 

[Bthoth]

It would be nice if you would stop trying to pedantically nitpick word choice when you (should) know what's being said.

If people were given straight answers there would be less confusion.

For example: ww2 germany was a christian country that trying to wipe out JEWS.

Semitic is a language group, not a people. The 'funny talkers' was how many identified JEWS. Not that people comprehend the integrity of Judaism is far superior to christianity.

I am too honest.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would be nice if you would stop trying to pedantically nitpick word choice when you (should) know what's being said.

You're correct about the word's application.
But your blaming religious based anti-semitism is
unsupported, & a poor explanation compared to
Israel's islamophobia & persistent conquest of
ever more Palestinian land.

 

[Left Coast]

Both of us know that Hamas is not capable of mounting another sneak attack, because the IDF has now established an impenetrable perimeter,

Things are impenetrable...till they're not. This is not Hamas or Israel's first rodeo. What October 7th made clear is that when Israel leta down its guard, Hamas uses that breathing room to plan and carry out attacks by exploiting whatever weaknesses they can find. They'll continue doing that until their power to do so is taken away.

and all Hamas has been able to do is launch their homemade rockets, most of which are wiped out by Iron Dome. Moreover, Israel had been experiencing such attacks daily before October 7, so, if Israel had no immediate or compelling need to use such lethal force then, it doesn't now.

Clearly it did have that need, or October 7th wouldn't have happened. Think through what you're saying.

Of course not, but what was the rush to kill thousands of Palestinian civilians and put the hostages at risk?

Put them at risk? The only thing that has compelled Hamas to release the hostsges they've released so far has been the military force exerted by Israel. Why do think they started releasing hostages the day before Israel went in with ground troops. These folks respond to the incentive of force.

If Israel had acted with greater restraint, thousands of lives would have been saved. What they have now is a humanitarian catastrophe and a world that does not share the desire of the Israeli government to mete out revenge against not just Hamas, but the entire population of one of the most densely populated ethnic ghettoes in the world.

And it is exactly the political strategy of Hamas to expect that Israel's will to fight them will be broken by international pressure due to the deaths of civilians they use as shields.

Worse yet, the Netanyahu government created the conditions for the attack by strengthening Hamas in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank so that it could establish more illegal Israeli settlements there. The PA itself had rejected the kind of terrorist tactics that Hamas used on October 7 and had not ever rejected. The Palestinians did not vote to keep Hamas in power, but Israelis did vote for governments whose policy was to keep Hamas in power to help with its West Bank settlements policy.

On that you're right, and Netanyahu should be held accountable for that.

I don't think you are paying attention at all. Nobody expects Hamas to act responsibly, and everyone expects Israel, as a civilized nation, to do so. All supplies must be constantly brought in from the outside.

...meaning Israel is allowing that to happen. Correct.

Just give it some thought. What were conditions like at the border when Hamas attacked on October 7? What are they like now? What kind of military force to you think Hamas has to throw at the IDF, the best trained and equipped military in the entire region? Israel is within its rights to disable and destroy Hamas, but it has a responsibility to do so in a way that protects civilians living there who are not part of the Hamas terrorist organization.

I am curious to know what you think that actually looks like, more than what Israel has already done.

Did you read that article? The IDF blew a huge crater in the densely populated Jabalya neighborhood to kill just one Hamas leader, and it isn't clear that they even got him. They did, however, get a lot of children along with adult civilians. They have also attacked ambulances, claiming they are being used by Hamas. (And how did they know? Anonymous tip from people who didn't tip them off about October 7?) Read the news and IDF explanations for their actions, and then see if what they are doing sounds like what your article describes. It looks like the opposite to me.

I don't pretend to be privy to Israeli intelligence. If they've gone too far and they've hit targets that killed too many civilians without sufficient military advantage gained, fair enough.

Stop digging. The hole is deep enough as it is, and they have retrieved very few of the Oct 7 hostages. They've already taken more lives than the Hamas terrorists did.

A raw comparison of lives taken is not sufficient to understand the moral (let alone legal) dynamics at play here.

A pause in the killing and perhaps some reflection would help Israel to come up with a better solution, especially with the help of those who support it. Israel has already made the mistake of creating the massive Gaza Strip ghetto and actually allowing Hamas to build itself up there.

So wait, it shouldn't have withdrawn from Gaza in 2005? It shouldn't have allowed Gazans to vote for their own leadership?

Now it is paying a very dear cost for that, and the person responsible for that policy is still running the country. He isn't the best person to solve the problem he created, but the Knesset was elected by the Israeli public, and Netanyahu was the winner. The solution won't happen quickly, but what is the rush to blow up Gaza neighborhoods? Israel needs to change its tactics and become more methodical at rooting out Hamas. Personally, I think that Israel should try to bring in peacekeeping troops to supply aid and help prevent a resumption of hostilities. UN troops would be ideal, but I'm not sure that is feasible, given the demonization of the UN by Israel.

It's possible that Arab states may be used to act as peacekeeping forces. The UN would be a less sustainable solution.