Israel Should Be Stopped

[ImmortalFlame]

You cannot isolate one current conflict form thousands of years of the reality of history to justify an extremely biased argument.

Firstly, you can isolate an event and make moral judgements about it, even while taking into consideration the history and contributing factors that lead to that event.

Secondly, what "extremely biased argument"?

I have been very specific read my posts again. The consideration of the CURRENT DOINGS is a biased view of the history of very long continuous war over the Holy Lands and the tribal conflicts between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

It must be extremely gratifying to refuse to make judgements of actions based on them being current.

What do you think of the holocaust, perchance?

 

[Revoltingest]

I really don't care. It's a country made up of more than just Jews, and I don't believe the actions of the Israeli state are contiguous with Jews broadly. I do not equate the two.

Neither should Jews & Judaism be divorced
from the self labeled "Jewish State".
This is just as we see connection between
Muslims, Islam, & Islamic states.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Likely no further argument here considering your intransigent one sided argument concerning the nature of the Isreal-Hamas war.

You keep saying this, and it keeps remaining false.

When are you going to apologise for the repeated falsehoods you have stated about me?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Power to change is not remotely an issue here, The issue is you are, like @Revoltingest, are trying to to isolate th nature of one conflict without considering it in the context of history.

More meaningless sophistry.

Simple question: why did you respond to Rev arguing that what Israel is currently doing fits the UN definition of genocide by saying that things that Muslims have done in the past also fit the UN definition of genocide? What point were you trying to make?

 

[shunyadragon]

I really don't care. It's a country made up of more than just Jews, and I don't believe the actions of the Israeli state are contiguous with Jews broadly. I do not equate the two.

Being currently "made up of more than Jews" doe not justify your assertion is an inclusive democratic or secular state.

Secularism in Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(HaTikvah was sung at Jewish prayer services for many years prior to the 1948 UN partition that allowed for the reestablishment of Israel as a nation state.)

Due to the massive role of religion in government and politics, Israel cannot be considered a secular state in the common sense of the word.

Israel is not listed on the UN list of Democratic secular atates.

The facts I cited document the fact that Israel is defined and the Laws enforce a "Jews only State," and the fact that many of the Islamic Nations place the same tribal legal restrictions on non-Muslims.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Being currently "made up of more than Jews" doe not justify your assertion is an inclusive democratic or secular state.

I never said it was "inclusive". That's another falsehood. I simply said it was secular, which it is in the sense that it is not exclusively Jewish and therefore to equate the actions of Israel with the actions of Jews is misleading.

You really shouldn't have to go to so much effort because of ONE WORD I USED while ignoring the vast majority of the actual argument I'm making. I am well aware of Israel's history as a Jewish state and its apartheid. Get over it already. It's not relevant to whether or not the state is doing a genocide or a war crime.

 

[shunyadragon]

More meaningless sophistry.

Simple question: why did you respond to Rev arguing that what Israel is currently doing fits the UN definition of genocide by saying that things that Muslims have done in the past also fit the UN definition of genocide? What point were you trying to make?

That the exclusive tribal religious belief and history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is the basis for thousands of years of bloody violent conflicts, and the current Israel-Hamas conflict is only one chapter in the continuing wars.

Yes, the tribal history of both Judaism and Islam violate the UN definition of genocide in the Middle East in the history of the conflict and wars over the turf war for the Holy Lands.

@Revoltingest assert the extremely biased view to assign isolated blame of CURRENT DOINGS without regard to the tribal nature of thousands of years of conflict and wars over the Holy Lands based on tribal religious beliefs.

 

[shunyadragon]

I never said it was "inclusive". That's another falsehood. I simply said it was secular, which it is in the sense that it is not exclusively Jewish and therefore to equate the actions of Israel with the actions of Jews is misleading.

Needs clarification, because of what you stated concerning the democratic nature of the State of Israel.

I gave the factual extreme tribal nature of the State of Israel. and also the parallel problem of many Islamic states,

You really shouldn't have to go to so much effort because of ONE WORD I USED while ignoring the vast majority of the actual argument I'm making. I am well aware of Israel's history as a Jewish state and its apartheid. Get over it already. It's not relevant to whether or not the state is doing a genocide or a war crime.

I do by the words you used, and nothing has changed in the assertions of your posts to ONLY deal with the CURRENT DOINGS of the current conflict of the Israel-Hamas conflict,

Again, we, of course, cannot change the past, but you cannot isolate on conflict or war without considering the context of history

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That the exclusive tribal religious belief and history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is the basis for thousands of years of bloody violent conflicts, and the current Israel-Hamas conflict is only one chapter in the continuing wars.

And we can take that into account and still argue "What Israel is currently doing is bad", unless you believe this history necessarily justifies actions like war crimes and possible genocide.

Yes, the tribal history of both Judaism and Islam violate the UN definition of genocide in the Middle East in the history of the conflict and wars over the turf war for the Holy Lands.

@Revoltingest assert the extremely biased view to assign isolated blame of CURRENT DOINGS without regard to the tribal nature of thousands of years of conflict and wars over the Holy Lands based on tribal religious beliefs.

Your logic here is nonexistent. Do you believe states do things, or do you believe states are just blameless agents of history whose actions are never anything other than the inevitable consequences of thousands of years of history?

Think the holocaust was bad? Well, that's an extremely biased view to assign isolated blame of doings during world war 2 without regard to the tribal nature of thousands of years of conflict throughout Europe based on tribal religious and political beliefs.

9/11 was unjustifiable terrorism? Well, that's an extremely biased view to assign isolated blame of doings in 2001 without regard to the tribal nature of thousands of years of conflict between the west and the middle east based on tribal religious and political beliefs.

Stabbing your son to death for stepping on my front law is wrong? Well, that's an extremely biased view to assign isolated blame for CURRENT DOINGS without regard to the tribal nature of the history of your son and my front lawn based on my ownership of my lawn and your son stepping on it.

This is just waffle. Endless, pointless, empty waffle. Get over it.

Refusing to make moral judgements of these events doesn't make you an enlightened student of history. It just makes you an immoral coward.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Needs clarification

Because you can't argue the actual point, which is that it is perfectly justifiable to point out individual events and make moral judgements about them.

I do by the words you used, and nothing has changed in the assertions of your posts to ONLY deal with the CURRENT DOINGS of the current conflict of the Israel-Hamas conflict,

You are increasingly testing my patience.

You've alleged many things about me that are outright false. I expect an apology, now.

 

[shunyadragon]

Because you can't argue the actual point.

Argument and detailed references provided, and you are unable to respond to the coherent argument.

You are increasingly testing my patience.

Your patience ia your problem. responding coherently and responsibility is your obligation.

I could care less about your patience.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest assert the extremely biased view....

Those with highly biased views object
to others having highly biased views.
The irony is lost upon them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Argument and detailed references provided

For a point I'm not even making and is completely irrelevant to my argument.

Your patience ia your problem. responding coherently and responsibility is your obligation.

Now you're just being childish. Are you actually going to address the arguments I'm making, or are you going to continue wasting my time by hyper-focusing on one word I used because you don't actually have a coherent response to the actual point?

I could care less about your patience.

I'm going to take a leaf out of your book now and be a massive pedant.

It's "I couldn't care less". If you "COULD" care less, that implies that you care at least a little bit. That's literally what that phrase means. It's the exact opposite of the meaning you're trying to imply.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Those with highly biased views object
to others having highly biased views.
The irony is lost upon them.

It seems to be his strategy. If he asserts enough times that we're "biased" then it eventually will become true, in total contradiction of the evidence of, y'know, what we may have actually written.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems to be his strategy. If he asserts enough times that we're "biased" then it eventually will become true, in total contradiction of the evidence of, y'know, what we may have actually written.

I don't think it's a "strategy", in the sense
of being chosen to serve a purpose.
It appears automatic...analogous to "ballistic",
ie, an uncontrolled flight path.

 

[shunyadragon]

One should recognize that difference of
opinion is not dishonesty. If one must
attribute the latter as the sole cause of
the former, then one will find oneself
unpopular in discussion forums.

I do recognize the difference. Your statements are out right lies, considering you cannot cite any "one statement" supporting your lies, which make you "unclean.",

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't think it's a "strategy", in the sense
of being chosen to serve a purpose.
It appears automatic...analogous to "ballistic",
ie, an uncontrolled flight path.

I see, kind of like an autoimmune response. It's like "Oh no! I realise I've said something that casts me in a bad light and I can't defend it! INITIATING INTROSPECTION-PREVENTER: accuse others challenging me of bias ad nauseum in 3, 2, 1..."

 

[Revoltingest]

I do recognize the difference.

You do?

Your statements are out right lies....

It appears you don't.

 

[shunyadragon]

You do?

Yes, your acknowledgement that not "one statement" I made justifies your doen right Lie concerning what I have posted.

 

[Kenny]

Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

Biden & even some in Congress now seem concerned.
But still, USA leaders takes no steps to curb the carnage.
They have the power to stop it.
Instead, it's all talk & no walk.

What inspired this thread?
Israel indends to strike Iran's nuclear facilities in retaliation
for Iran's likely retaliation for Israel's attack on Iran's embassy.
Iran is prepared to respond on a much larger scale.

Missiles of Iran | Missile Threat

Iran possesses the largest and most diverse missile arsenal in the Middle East, with thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles, some capable of striking as far as Israel and southeast Europe. For the past decade, Iran has invested significantly to improve these weapons’ precision and lethality...

missilethreat.csis.org

Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.
This should not happen.

Israel prepared to strike Iranian nuclear facilities if Tehran launches attack – report

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Iran nuclear programme: Threat of Israeli strike grows

As Iran's nuclear programme forges ahead, some see Israel running out of options to thwart it.

www.bbc.com

This is so full of biased, unreasonable, irrational, and unbelievable statements that it isn’t worth addressing.

Israel should not be stopped until Hamas has been dealt with and then reconstruction