Israel Should Be Stopped

[shunyadragon]

No single statement.
But your collective posts paint a different picture.
Why care about my opinion anyway, eh.

No single statement?!?! Then what you accused me of is a lie.

My posts reflect that this war is the latest chapter in the oldest tribal turf war in history over the Holy Lands including Christianity. They are all guilty in the history of these wars. This millennia old war spreads into America with 911 and bombs and suicide missions blowing up innocent civilians in airplanes.

I care about your opinion and others that hink like you, because it is dangerous, one sided and leads to increased violent anti-semitism in the West. There is also an increase in anti-Islamic violence as well,

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ypu conceded reluctantly some points with Biden, but then sarcastically slammed hid with 'it seems'

So, in other words, I never called Biden dishonest and you owe me an apology.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

CURRENTLY DOING is far to narrow a biased judgement

Wait... Are you arguing with the concept of temporal reality right now? Are you suggesting that what we need to do is be just as actively opposed to events that have already happened and we therefore have no power to change rather than current, ongoing events that we have the power to change?

Are you a serious human being or do you just pretend to be one in your spare time?

that you are selectively making against Israel in the greater context of the history of the wars and violence.

Where have I done that? Be specific.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

One point I would like to make clear is Israel is NOT a modern secular state. It is Jewish Nation for Jews only as written in the Constitution and Laws.

Fine then. They're a constitutionally Jewish state that is home to multiple religious groups with a mixed ethnography.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You are narrowly and selectively condemning Israel for CURRENTLY Doing and avoiding the greater issue of the tribal history of wars and violence by Judaism and Islam. This is one chapter in a tribal war over the Holy Lands both claim.

How dare I be upset about events that are currently ongoing and can potentially be stopped rather than hundreds of years of complex history that none of us have the power to change except through decades of geopolitics and sociological insight. How biased of me.

Terrible irrelevant example.

It's an exact parallel to your logic.

Nothing is morally justified here.

Then why not argue that we work to stop the morally unjustified thing that is currently happening from continuing to happen? What is wrong with that?

Again you are denying this is a no holds barred tribal war over Holy Lands of both religions based on Old Testament morality.

I don't give a damn about Holy wars. I care about civilians being bombed.

. . . because you are focusing on the CURRENT DOING only.

I apologise for thinking it's important to save lives rather than wax philosophic over things that we have literally no material control over. Surely that can only mean I am biased against Israel. It's the only explanation.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No you canot separate individual ACTs for moral judgement to justify a on sided agenda basing your argument CURRENT DOING..

Okay, we're done here. You have no actual argument, just baseless allegations.

In fact, not only baseless, but utterly contradicted by everything I have written in these last several posts. Why do you feel the need to make false allegations against other posters, exactly?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In Israel and the Arab world secual governments that negociate reasonable secular solutions, Israel is a Jewish State for Jews only, Most Islamic governments are based on Islamic Laws and beliefs and Laws, and all who live there must comply and other religions such as Baha'is Jews and minorities are suppressed and persecuted. This monolithic belief extends to belief in the Palestine Islamic Holy Lands. This a world based on tribal rule and conflict.

Oh, I get it. You're just an ethno-nationalist, and you can't see the world in anything other than ethno-nationalist terms.

Makes a lot of sense now.

 

[Flankerl]

We're discussing the Israel v Hamas
conflict, & Israel's genocide.
Don't change the context, eh.

The user called the conflict the most bloody conflict in the middle east.
Which is simply not true in any shape or form.

Is reality that inconvenient to you?

After 70+ years of oppression, apartheid,
murder, theft, diaspora, genocide, & now
starvation, yes....Israel is responsible for
creating conditions that inspire violent
response by desperate people.

Prime example of not knowing the history.
The things Hamas has done aren't new or some kind of product of the evil repression.

You can find all of it in the 1920s to 1940s on the Arab side.
Not even only in what became Israel but also the entire Arab world.
They've done the things they do to us for a century and only stopped doing it because they literally had no more Jews to massacre.
One of the reasons the British even allowed the Yishuv to arm was because their British officers described to them the barbaric acts that they've witnessed by the Arabs.

Funny how after every Arab attack the Jews come out stronger.


I've met Jews who retold what their parents and grandparents went through in Algeria, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Lebanon and Egypt.
All without there even being an Israel.

How utterly inconvenient to you.

I advise the same of you.
Learn....think outsider of Israeli propaganda.
Let go of hatred of Muslims. Recognize
Israel's human rights crimes. Denounce them.
Then we might have some common ground
for discussion.

I highly doubt that I can learn anything from you.
You who has not an inkling of knowledge on the wider conflict let alone Jewish experiences under Muslim rule.

 

[Revoltingest]

My posts...

....are numerous.

 

[Revoltingest]

The user called the conflict the most bloody conflict in the middle east.
Which is simply not true in any shape or form.

Is reality that inconvenient to you?

You found a detail in someone else's post from
which to squeeze out an imagined "gotcha"?
Hyper focus upon details culled for bias
confirmation will blind one to other views.

I highly doubt that I can learn anything from you.

Of this I'm certain. Your posts show
dogged fanaticism exceeding all others.

 

[shunyadragon]

Fine then. They're a constitutionally Jewish state that is home to multiple religious groups with a mixed ethnography.

Actually no. Based on the Declaration of Independence and Law it is a Jewish State for the Self-Determination of Jews only and Immigration for Jews only, and descendants of Jews willing to convert back to Judaism.

Though I do not consider this law anything new or a change reflected in the previous laws defining Israel as a "Jewish State." the restrictions of immigrations, citizenship and voting in Israel.

Israel adopts divisive Jewish nation-state law

Although the law is largely symbolic, critics say the legislation is racist in origin and verges on apartheid.

www.nbcnews.com

July 19, 2018, 1:05 AM EDT / Updated July 19, 2018, 1:05 AM EDT
By Reuters
JERUSALEM — Israel passed a law on Thursday to declare that only Jews have the right of self-determination in the country, something members of the Arab minority called racist and verging on apartheid.
The "nation-state" law, backed by the right-wing government, passed by a vote of 62-55 and two abstentions in the 120-member parliament after months of political argument. Some Arab lawmakers shouted and ripped up papers after the vote.

"This is a defining moment in the annals of Zionism and the history of the state of Israel," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the Knesset after the vote.
Largely symbolic, the law was enacted just after the 70th anniversary of the birth of the state of Israel. It stipulates that "Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it."

Also, immigration to Israel is limited to Jews and those of Jewish heritage that convert back to Judaism as a condition of immigration.

Immigration to Israel and Israeli Citizenship - דותן כהן, משרד עורכי-דין

For a free consultation with an attorney !PRESS HERE I only have a question Immigration to Israel and Israeli Citizenship «« Immigration to Israel and Israeli Citizenship: Click here Israel, despite being a liberal democratic country, is not an immigration country. Therefore, Israel does not...

www.visa-law.co.il

“ The rights of a Jew under this law, and the rights of an Ole under the Citizenship Law -1952, and the rights of a Ole under any other law, are given to the child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew the spouse of a child and grandchild of a Jew; Except a person who was born Jewish and out of his free will converted his religion.”

According to the Law of Return the right to live and settle in Israel is given to eligible persons per the law and definition above. Eligible persons per the law of Return while considering settlement may choose between several options one of which provides a B/1 Work Visa for several years, the second is a process which provides temporary residence while considering Aliyah, this process also makes them eligible for social rights such as Health Care. In addition, the eligible person may choose to make Aliyah, whether with the help of the Jewish Agency abroad or individually at the Ministry of Interior offices in Israel. The Aliyah process includes presenting personal documents and proof of Jewish roots. In general, most Jews and Zakaey Shvut are eligible to make Aliyah and to receive Israeli citizenship.

Becoming a citizen not as part of the Law of Return​

Eligibility to becoming a citizen in Israel is determined per the Citizenship Law. The clauses of the law state who is an Israeli citizen, who is eligible to become a citizen, and how one may become a citizen. In accordance with the law, Israeli citizenship is granted by eligibility under the Law of Return, by eligibility due to residence in Israel prior to the establishment of the country, and by birth (if the person does not hold other citizenships). Clause 5 of the Citizenship Law details the option of becoming a citizen for ineligible persons. Persons seeking citizenship per clause 5 must meet the following:
1. Residence in Israel for 3 out of the 5 years prior to the citizenship request under a permanent residence status.
2. Knowledge of the Hebrew language.
3. Willingness to waive other citizenships.

An important issue in this tribal problem of the nature of governments in the Middle East is Islamic countries often place restrictions on non-Muslims, and the demands of non-Muslims to comply to Islamic Laws.

more to follow . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

How does Israel determine who has the right to vote in Israel. Note bold concerning occupied Palestine.

Who gets to vote in Israel’s version of democracy

Israel is about to hold elections, but not everyone living under Israeli rule gets to vote in them. A breakdown of who has rights and who doesn't.

www.972mag.com

Nearly 14 million people live under Israeli rule. The extent of that control varies, as does the ability of those 14 million people to exercise control over the policies, personalities, and institutions that determine so much about their day-to-day lives.

At the end of 2018, the population of Israel was approximately 8,972,000 people. That includes more than 330,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem who do not have Israeli citizenship and thus do not have the right to vote in national elections. It also includes more than 214,000 Jewish Israeli citizens who live in occupied East Jerusalem and more than 435,000 Jewish Israelis who live in the occupied West Bank.

Then there is the West Bank, which has been governed undemocratically by the Israeli military since it occupied the territory in 1967. Prime Minister Netanyahu has vowed again and again, the Israel will not give up military control over the West Bank — ever.

In that territory, over which Israel plans to rule in perpetuity, live more than 2,623,000 Palestinians — over 2,953,000 including East Jerusalem Palestinians — who do not have the right to vote in Israeli elections. In the West Bank, Israel and its army are responsible for everything from road infrastructure, deciding who may live where, who may build where and what, who is allowed to move between different parts of the territory and when, who is allowed in and out of the West Bank, who is allowed to hold a political protest (only Jews), what the laws are and how they are enforced, and whether they will ever be granted independence.

 

[shunyadragon]

Wait... Are you arguing with the concept of temporal reality right now? Are you suggesting that what we need to do is be just as actively opposed to events that have already happened and we therefore have no power to change rather than current, ongoing events that we have the power to change?

You cannot isolate one current conflict form thousands of years of the reality of history to justify an extremely biased argument.

Are you a serious human being or do you just pretend to be one in your spare time?


Where have I done that? Be specific.

I have been very specific read my posts again. The consideration of the CURRENT DOINGS is a biased view of the history of very long continuous war over the Holy Lands and the tribal conflicts between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

[shunyadragon]

The user called the conflict the most bloody conflict in the middle east.
Which is simply not true in any shape or form.

Please cite properly and DO NOT use a vague "user" to cite and misrepresent someone. The Most bloody tribal conflict in the Middle East is thousands of years old.

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay, we're done here. You have no actual argument, just baseless allegations.

Likely no further argument here considering your intransigent one sided argument concerning the nature of the Isreal-Hamas war.

In fact, not only baseless, but utterly contradicted by everything I have written in these last several posts. Why do you feel the need to make false allegations against other posters, exactly?

In fact, your view not only baseless, but utterly contradicted by everything I have written in all my posts. Why do you feel the need to make false allegations against me exactly?

 

[shunyadragon]

Wait... Are you arguing with the concept of temporal reality right now? Are you suggesting that what we need to do is be just as actively opposed to events that have already happened and we therefore have no power to change rather than current, ongoing events that we have the power to change?

Are you a serious human being or do you just pretend to be one in your spare time?


Where have I done that? Be specific.

Power to change is not remotely an issue here, The issue is you are, like @Revoltingest, are trying to to isolate th nature of one conflict without considering it in the context of history.

 

[Revoltingest]

The issue is you are, like @Revoltingest, are.....

I sure do occupy an inordinate
number of your thoughts.
Makes me feel unclean.

 

[shunyadragon]

I sure do occupy an inordinate
number of your thoughts.
Makes me feel unclean.

This of course, may be your position, nonetheless your lying about the content and nature of my posts make you "unclean."

Remember you can not cite "One statement" on my part to justify your lies.

 

[Revoltingest]

This of course, may be your position nonetheless your lying about the content and nature of my posts make you "unclean."

Remember you can not cite "One statement" on my part to justify your lies.

One should recognize that difference of
opinion is not dishonesty. If one must
attribute the latter as the sole cause of
the former, then one will find oneself
unpopular in discussion forums.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Actually no.

I really don't care. It's a country made up of more than just Jews, and I don't believe the actions of the Israeli state are contiguous with Jews broadly. I do not equate the two.