Israel Should Be Stopped

[Revoltingest]

No. Hamas is a terrorist group and Iran is a terrorist nation.

So is Israel...one with a greater record of terrorism.
This makes such labelling of no use. Instead, imagine
what path can minimizing acts of terrorism.

I'm not sympathetic nor supportive towards terrorism like some people are.

No doubt you believe that. But I discern support
for Israel's terrorist acts...just not acknowledging
them as such.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But, again and again, if Hamas were to surrender, this conflict between Israel and Hamas would end, and yet the OP conveniently ignores that.

Relying on the surrender of suicidal terrorists who don't really care about the deaths of civilians is basically no different to sentencing all the people of Gaza to death. This logic basically presumes that developed states with an advanced military should be expected to function at the same level of responsibility and restraint as terrorist death cults. Historically, not a recipe for success.

 

[Heyo]

Ah, some anti-Semitism at its "finest".

Israel, and especially Israel's administration, is not "Semites". Even though they try to hide behind that moniker, we have to clearly differentiate.

 

[Heyo]

Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

I have mostly kept out of the Palestine discussion, and already stated that I have no sympathies for either party in this conflict, but as Israel is more and more acting like a maniac, I also think that it is important that those who are still friendly to Israel, act like friends. Friends don't let friends start a world war. Israel has to be stopped.

Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.

Becoming?
If the US had signed the Rome Statute, Bush jr. and half his cabinet would inhabit a nice and secure facility near Den Haag. (And his successors probably, too.)

 

[Twilight Hue]

So is Israel...one with a greater record of terrorism.
This makes such labelling of no use. Instead, imagine
what path can minimizing acts of terrorism.

No doubt you believe that. But I discern support
for Israel's terrorist acts...just not acknowledging
them as such.

In your alternate world I'm sure you see Israelis strapping explosives to themselves and their children and running them into crowds of people in mass.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In your alternate world I'm sure you see Israelis strapping explosives to themselves and their children and running them into crowds of people in mass.

You're right. Much more humane to bomb much larger numbers of them and their children from a distance.

 

[Tomef]

Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

Biden & even some in Congress now seem concerned.
But still, USA leaders takes no steps to curb the carnage.
They have the power to stop it.
Instead, it's all talk & no walk.

What inspired this thread?
Israel indends to strike Iran's nuclear facilities in retaliation
for Iran's likely retaliation for Israel's attack on Iran's embassy.
Iran is prepared to respond on a much larger scale.

Missiles of Iran | Missile Threat

Iran possesses the largest and most diverse missile arsenal in the Middle East, with thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles, some capable of striking as far as Israel and southeast Europe. For the past decade, Iran has invested significantly to improve these weapons’ precision and lethality...

missilethreat.csis.org

Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.
This should not happen.

Israel prepared to strike Iranian nuclear facilities if Tehran launches attack – report

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Iran nuclear programme: Threat of Israeli strike grows

As Iran's nuclear programme forges ahead, some see Israel running out of options to thwart it.

www.bbc.com

Fair points but I think the timeframe needs expanding out a bit. People tend to think about what’s happened since 1948, but this goes back centuries. Even in the last century the picture is mixed - Palestinian Arabs started a similar, but less wide-ranging conflict when they massacred some dozens of Jewish people in 1929 (to which the Jewish community present at the time responded with equal brutality). Taking it back to the start however, this conflict began with the advent of Islam. Mohammed, piqued over rejection by the Jews, began a systematic cycle of violence that has only ever paused, never really stopped. The main difference these days is the ability to inflict higher body counts, and currently Israel has the upper hand in that respect.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Fair points but I think the timeframe needs expanding out a bit. People tend to think about what’s happened since 1948, but this goes back centuries. Even in the last century the picture is mixed - Palestinian Arabs started a similar, but less wide-ranging conflict when they massacred some dozens of Jewish people in 1929 (to which the Jewish community present at the time responded with equal brutality). Taking it back to the start however, this conflict began with the advent of Islam. Mohammed, piqued over rejection by the Jews, began a systematic cycle of violence that has only ever paused, never really stopped. The main difference these days is the ability to inflict higher body counts, and currently Israel has the upper hand in that respect.

That's a rather partisan view of history. The longest period of peace in the region arguably came under the rule of the Moslem Ottomans. Some of the bloodiest periods were under the Romans, who raised the Temple to the ground then built a shrine to Jupiter on the Judean's holiest site, and the Crusaders who indiscrimately murdered the entire population of Jerusalem in 1099. The current conflict, however, is rooted as much in a continuation of Cold War politics as in ancient tribal and religious feuds. Israel is the USA's base of operations, as Syria is Russia's. That hasn't changed since the days of Kruschev and Kennedy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Becoming?

At the moment, USA is only enabling Israel.
But to join the attack on others would mean
becoming one.

If the US had signed the Rome Statute, Bush jr. and half his cabinet would inhabit a nice and secure facility near Den Haag. (And his successors probably, too.)

That was then.
This is now.

 

[Estro Felino]

The agreements of decolonization entailed that there was this tiny country inhabited by Jewish people.

We too signed the agreements of decolonization, and we lost our colonies and regions but we have moved on.
Why do so many people still can't move on, after almost eighty years?

 

[Revoltingest]

In your alternate world I'm sure you see Israelis strapping explosives to themselves and their children and running them into crowds of people in mass.

You are either unaware of, or dismissal of, Israel's
greater terrorist acts, eg, bombing homes, shooting
civilians, & relieving children of their heads, eyes,
limbs, & lives. You're OK with mass murder of
innocents, so long as it's done by conventional
warfare.
The blinders you wear are the basis for this genocide.

 

[Tomef]

That's a rather partisan view of history. The longest period of peace in the region arguably came under the rule of the Moslem Ottomans. Some of the bloodiest periods were under the Romans, who raised the Temple to the ground then built a shrine to Jupiter on the Judean's holiest site, and the Crusaders who indiscrimately murdered the entire population of Jerusalem in 1099. The current conflict, however, is rooted as much in a continuation of Cold War politics as in ancient tribal and religious feuds. Israel is the USA's base of operations, as Syria is Russia's. That hasn't changed since the days of Kruschev and Kennedy.

Sure, there has been a long hiatus but the 'who started it' question identifies Mohammed and his new religion. Discussing the Ottoman period might be interesting another time, I don't know that much about it, but people I have talked to here in Romania and in Turkey have given me a more complex view than I get from the little I've read about it.

As you say there are other factors involved, but without that religious divide, as with Catholics and Protestants (and the rest) for many years across Europe, the conflict would not be there for others to exploit. Unfortunately, neither side is willing to accept the other, and there seems to be no easy territorial solution, so no obvious solution other than the Palestinian question dissolving under the ambitions of other Arab nations to place progress and national gain over the conflict with Israel.

 

[Revoltingest]

The agreements of decolonization entailed that there was this tiny country inhabited by Jewish people.

We too signed the agreements of decolonization, and we lost our colonies and regions but we have moved on.
Why do so many people still can't move on, after almost eighty years?

Why should people give up their lands
merely because outsiders decreed it so?
It is a hideous travesty that what belongs
to Muslims must be stolen from them
because Jews want it for their own.

 

[Estro Felino]

Why should people give up their lands
merely because outsiders decreed it so?
It is a hideous travesty that what belongs
to Muslims must be stolen from them
because Jews want it for their own.

Why are you bringing up religion?
I didn't mean religion: national identity was the factor, back then.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fair points but I think the timeframe needs expanding out a bit. People tend to think about what’s happened since 1948, but this goes back centuries. Even in the last century the picture is mixed - Palestinian Arabs started a similar, but less wide-ranging conflict when they massacred some dozens of Jewish people in 1929 (to which the Jewish community present at the time responded with equal brutality). Taking it back to the start however, this conflict began with the advent of Islam. Mohammed, piqued over rejection by the Jews, began a systematic cycle of violence that has only ever paused, never really stopped. The main difference these days is the ability to inflict higher body counts, and currently Israel has the upper hand in that respect.

What is the relevance of the slice of history you proffer?
It doesn't justify the genocide of people who played no
role in those prior events.

 

[Rival]

Why should people give up their lands
merely because outsiders decreed it so?
It is a hideous travesty that what belongs
to Muslims must be stolen from them
because Jews want it for their own.

I understand the sentiment, but where then would the Jews live? They would be a people without a state and to me and many this is unacceptable.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why are you bringing up religion?
I didn't mean religion: national identity was the factor, back then.

Religion is integral to the formation of
"The Jewish State", & to its treatment
of non-Jews, especially Muslims.
Religion is integral to Israel's government
& culture. Religion is integral to USA &
other countries dominated by Christian
leaders who fete Israel, & supply it with
the means to commit genocide against
Muslims.
To ignore religion is to bury one's head
in the sand.

 

[Tomef]

What is the relevance of the slice of history you proffer?
It doesn't justify the genocide of people who played no
role in those prior events.

The current instance of conflict didn't come out of nowhere. Understanding the history is key to understanding why it keeps recurring.

The basic facts are that both sides see the other as less than human. Hamas has limited capacity to inflict harm, but they certainly try their best. Israel is better armed and better funded. Neither side cares who they kill among the civilian population. At the moment, what options does Israel have? They want to eliminate Hamas, Hamas is embedded in civilian areas. Either they go in and plough through Hamas's human shield, or they don't. Either way, the conflict continues and more people die.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand the sentiment, but where then would the Jews live?

The question would be difficult to answer
because it would require (ideally) extensive
negotiations.

They would be a people without a state and to me and many this is unacceptable.

Does unacceptability to Jews confer the right
to invade, kill, rob the existing inhabitants of
a country to take it for their own?
This is to dismiss the lives of Palestinians as
valueless because they're Muslims....not Jews.

 

[Estro Felino]

Religion is integral to the formation of
"The Jewish State", & to its treatment
of non-Jews, especially Muslims.
Religion is integral to Israel's government
& culture. Religion is integral to USA &
other countries dominated by Christian
leaders who fete Israel, & supply it with
the means to commit genocide against
Muslims.
To ignore religion is to bury one's head
in the sand.

I am speaking of the juridical process to led to the today map of the Middle-East.
As we can see...the 90% of borders were drawn with a ruler.
At least Israel has natural borders...

I think that decolonization and the agreements of decolonization were not done tidily.

And by the way, I am against any war, so I am against all those who think that warfare can solve anything. It just satiates the money-hunger of the Military-Industrial- Complex. Nothing more.