Israel Should Be Stopped

[Revoltingest]

The current instance of conflict didn't come out of nowhere. Understanding the history is key to understanding why it keeps recurring.

All things have their origins.
Even the rise of Hitler in Germany, of Stalin in Russia,
of Mao on China, of Pol Pot in Cambodia, of Kim Il
Sung in N Korea, etc.
Origins don't justify evil that is done simply because
it originated for whatever reason.

The basic facts are that both sides see the other as less than human. Hamas has limited capacity to inflict harm, but they certainly do their best. Israel is better armed and better funded. Neither side cares who they kill among the civilian population. At the moment, what options does Israel have? They want to eliminate Hamas, Hamas is embedded in civilian areas. Either they go in and plough through Hamas's human shield, or they don't. Either way, the conflict continues and more people die.

Your post laments the problem as inevitable.
We needn't accept this status quo.
It should be addressed with the goal of solving
or at least mitigating it. But currently, USA sends
money & bombs to Israel, continuing genocide.
This must stop.
Israel must be stopped.
USA has the power that it refuses to exercise for good.
This must change.

 

[Rival]

The question would be difficult to answer
because it would require (ideally) extensive
negotiations.

Nevertheless, we find it unacceptable after WWII and prior horrors the Jews went through to leave them at the mercy of many foreign governments. Having their own state would be ideal and in the time period this was made, such colonial ideas were the norm and part of the reshaping of the fallen Ottoman Empire. This issue arguably still hasn't been dealt with and the ME has since been in chaos due to this collapse. If the Jews have no state they are in a vulnerable position that I don't think anyone would say is good or better.

Dose unacceptability to Jews confer the right
to invade, kill, rob the existing inhabitants of
a country to take it for their own?
This is to dismiss the lives of Palestinians as
valueless because they're Muslims....not Jews.

Of course it doesn't and that wasn't part of the plan. Or not part of the plan as it was discussed. I believe both Israel's and Gaza's Governments are acting atrociously, terroristicallly and wickedly. I have no problem condemning either, whilst remembering the citizens are collateral as well on both sides. I don't believe Israel ought just be for Jews, and should include anyone who wants to move there or who already lived there, but should be governed by culturally Jewish people or those who can blend in (like Sunak here) so as to create a safe place for Jews to live with their compatriots.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am speaking of the juridical process to led to the today map of the Middle-East.
As we can see...the 90% of borders were drawn with a ruler.
At least Israel has natural borders...

I think that decolonization and the agreements of decolonization were not done tidily.

The Nakba was far from "tidy".
So many deaths you dismiss so easily.

And by the way, I am against any war, so I am against all those who think that warfare can solve anything. It just statiates the money-hunger of the Military-Industrial- Complex. Nothing more.

Yet here you are blithely accepting
genocide of Palestinians without
a whiff of outrage or even objection.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yet here you are blithely accepting
genocide of Palestinians without
a whiff of outrage or even objection.

That's not absolutely true.
I think war is horrific and there are countless alternative methods to war.
That said, the situation is incredibly complex and I just say that I side with peace. Period.

 

[Lyndon]

No. Hamas is a terrorist group and Iran is a terrorist nation.

I'm not sympathetic nor supportive towards terrorism like some people are.

israel is a terrorist state, you seem to have no problem with that

 

[Nakosis]

Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

Biden & even some in Congress now seem concerned.
But still, USA leaders takes no steps to curb the carnage.
They have the power to stop it.
Instead, it's all talk & no walk.

What inspired this thread?
Israel indends to strike Iran's nuclear facilities in retaliation
for Iran's likely retaliation for Israel's attack on Iran's embassy.
Iran is prepared to respond on a much larger scale.

Missiles of Iran | Missile Threat

Iran possesses the largest and most diverse missile arsenal in the Middle East, with thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles, some capable of striking as far as Israel and southeast Europe. For the past decade, Iran has invested significantly to improve these weapons’ precision and lethality...

missilethreat.csis.org

Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.
This should not happen.

Israel prepared to strike Iranian nuclear facilities if Tehran launches attack – report

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Iran nuclear programme: Threat of Israeli strike grows

As Iran's nuclear programme forges ahead, some see Israel running out of options to thwart it.

www.bbc.com

I imagine the only people who can stop Israel are the people of Israel.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nevertheless, we find it unacceptable after WWII and prior horrors the Jews went through to leave them at the mercy of many foreign governments. Having their own state would be ideal and in the time period this was made, such colonial ideas were the norm and part of the reshaping of the fallen Ottoman Empire. This issue arguably still hasn't been dealt with and the ME has since been in chaos due to this collapse. If the Jews have no state they are in a vulnerable position that I don't think anyone would say is good or better.

What is "ideal" to you is less so to the Palestinians
who were killed, driven from their homes, or remained
to endure more of the same, torture, imprisonment,
group punishment, & other human rights violations.

Having endured genocide does not confer the right
to commit the same against another, & to steal their
country.

Of course it doesn't and that wasn't part of the plan. Or not part of the plan as it was discussed. I believe both Israel's and Gaza's Governments are acting atrociously, terroristicallly and wickedly.

This suggests some equality of evil.
Israel is the top dog, with the power to do as it pleases,
backed by the full might of US political & military power.
Israel has used this to flout international law, to violate
human rights, & now to commit genocide. You speak
of wikedness....in this regard, Israel is again top dog.

I have no problem condemning either, whilst remembering the citizens are collateral as well on both sides.

Yet you defend the Nakba.

I don't believe Israel ought just be for Jews, and should include anyone who wants to move there or who already lived there, but should be governed by culturally Jewish people or those who can blend in (like Sunak here) so as to create a safe place for Jews to live with their compatriots.

I agree that Israel should be safe.
But it won't achieve this by continued oppression,
human rights violations, land theft, now genocide,
& now provoking war with Iran.
Israel has been its own worst enemy.

 

[Tomef]

All things have their origins.
Even the rise of Hitler in Germany, of Stalin in Russia,
of Mao on China, of Pol Pot in Cambodia, of Kim Il
Sung in N Korea, etc.
Origins don't justify evil that is done simply because
it originated for whatever reason.

Your post laments the problem as inevitable.
We needn't accept this status quo.
It should be addressed with the goal of solving
or at least mitigating it. But currently, USA sends
money & bombs to Israel, continuing genocide.
This must stop.
Israel must be stopped.
USA has the power that it refuses to exercise for good.
This must change.

It's not a justification, it just is what it is. Without the initial clash of religions, there would be no conflict, at least not in it's current form.

Depriving Israel of funding and weaponry could well stop the current level of violence from happening again - from Israel's side. If Israel were left without the ability to respond adequately however, there is no reason to believe that Hamas would not be emboldened to carry out other attacks like that of 7th October but on a larger scale. It would be a mistake to think that Hamas would not kill everyone in Israel if they only could.

This isn't about justifications - the whole thing is insane - it's about recognising the situation for what it is. Both sides want to eliminate the other, if Israel lacked the weaponry to temporarily gain the upper hand, Hamas would not hold back from inflicting as much damage as they could. So it's not really a question of less weaponry = peace, it would just shift the dynamic of the conflict, not stop it.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's not absolutely true.
I think war is horrific and there are countless alternative methods to war.
That said, the situation is incredibly complex and I just say that I side with peace. Period.

You say war is horrific.
Yet you pick a side to favor in it,
even when your side is culpable.

 

[Rival]

Yet you defend the Nakba.

This is ridiculous.

It's as if you want people to condemn Israel above Hamas. Hamas is just as evil but for different reasons.

I'm not an underdog person, I will not always side with the underdog. They can be just as bad.

If it were up to me, there'd be no intervention and just let both sides fight it out til kingdom come.

 

[Revoltingest]

I imagine the only people who can stop Israel are the people of Israel.

I don't see it being stopped.
Israel is a country that has gone insane
on a determined & unquestioned path
of vengeance & hatred against the other.
USA's dominance by pro-Israel Christian
& Jewish politicians is similarly committed.
But a guy can argue that it be different.
Low expectations are my ally.

 

[Estro Felino]

You say war is horrific.
Yet you pick a side to favor in it,
even when your side is culpable.

I am a person from Europe. I don't side with either party, I side with peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not a justification, it just is what it is.

We each pick what issues we focus upon.
It "is what it is" smacks of accepting the carnage.
I don't.

Without the initial clash of religions, there would be no conflict, at least not in it's current form.

Depriving Israel of funding and weaponry could well stop the current level of violence from happening again - from Israel's side. If Israel were left without the ability to respond adequately however, there is no reason to believe that Hamas would not be emboldened to carry out other attacks like that of 7th October but on a larger scale. It would be a mistake to think that Hamas would not kill everyone in Israel if they only could.

Israel has means for defense without USA supplying
cash & bombs. One tool would be to relax its very
strict gun regulation. If the largely unarmed populace
were capable of armed self defense, the October
attack would've been vastly lessened.

This isn't about justifications - the whole thing is insane - it's about recognising the situation for what it is. Both sides want to eliminate the other, if Israel lacked the weaponry to temporarily gain the upper hand, Hamas would not hold back from inflicting as much damage as they could. So it's not really a question of less weaponry = peace, it would just shift the dynamic of the conflict, not stop it.

Give what you choose to recognize,
how does it serve ending the genocide?

 

[Nakosis]

I don't see it being stopped.
Israel is a country that has gone insane
on a determined & unquestioned path
of vengeance & hatred against the other.
USA's dominance by pro-Israel Christian
& Jewish politicians is similarly committed.
But a guy can argue that it be different.
Low expectations are my ally.

As long as there remains a preponderance of support from the people of Israel, you are likely right.
However you never know. Maybe someone within Israel will start a movement.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is ridiculous.

I thought so.
But we must be referring to different things.
You defended it by saying the Jews must
have a homeland. This was achieved by
the Nakba.

It's as if you want people to condemn Israel above Hamas.

Israel does deserve greater condemnation.
It has killed, robbed, & brutalized Palestinians
since long before Hamas came into being in
response to the killing, robbing, & brutalizing.

What is the purpose of elevating Israel relative
to Palestinians & Israel's foes? Is it to justify
taking Israel's side, & defending its actions?

I'm not an underdog person, I will not always side with the underdog. They can be just as bad.

When the oppressor creates the underdog.
The underdog's violent response is not as
bad as the oppressor who caused the problem

If it were up to me, there'd be no intervention and just let both sides fight it out til kingdom come.

That's one way to see it.
But I see that the west, particularly England &
USA have a responsibility to address the deadly
problem they caused & continue to cause.

Those who caused suffering must own what they
did, & rectify it. Not wash one's hands of it.

 

[Rival]

I thought so.
But we must be referring to different things.
You defended it by saying the Jews must
have a homeland. This was achieved by
the Nakba.

Israel does deserve greater condemnation.
It has killed, robbed, & brutalized Palestinians
since long before Hamas came into being in
response to the killing, robbing, & brutalizing.

What is the purpose of elevating Israel relative
to Palestinians & Israel's foes? Is it to justify
taking Israel's side, & defending its actions?

When the oppressor creates the underdog.
The underdog's violent response is not as
bad as the oppressor who caused the problem

That's one way to see it.
But I see that the west, particularly England &
USA have a responsibility to address the deadly
problem they caused & continue to cause.

Those who caused suffering must own what they
did, & rectify it. Not wash one's hands of it.

Your deliberate misuse of England for the UK is so irksome I'm not talking to you until you stop being so blatantly offensive by using this.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am a person from Europe. I don't side with either party, I side with peace.

That is to take no stand it all.
Except to be here arguing that....uh....just
what are you arguing for regarding Israel's
genocide of Palestinians? Only that it
bothers you?

 

[Revoltingest]

As long as there remains a preponderance of support from the people of Israel, you are likely right.
However you never know. Maybe someone within Israel will start a movement.

I have high hopes.
And very very low expectations.

 

[Tomef]

We each pick what issues we focus upon.
It "is what it is" smacks of accepting the carnage.
I don't.

Israel has means for defense without USA supplying
cash & bombs. One tool would be to relax its very
strict gun regulation. If the largely unarmed populace
were capable of armed self defense, the October
attack would've been vastly lessened.

Give what you choose to recognize,
how does it serve ending the genocide?

It doesn't - although in this instance, I blame Hamas. They knew what they were doing and what it would lead to - they've said as much, off camera. It was a deliberate act to provoke a response that couldn't be ignored, carried out due to the fear of Hamas's leadership that improving relationships between Israel and the rest of the Arab world would lead to the Palestinian issue being sidelined.

Israeli forces, by and large, don't see Palestinians as human. The same way some Palestinians feel about Jews. Unprovoked, Israel shows some degree of reasonableness, provoked there are few or no limits to the cruelty. That's the reality of it. It's important to remember that suicide bomb attacks were happening almost weekly when the 'border' was relaxed and Palestinians were permitted much more freedom of movement.

As awful as Israel's violence is, Hamas is to blame for what is happening right now.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your deliberate misuse of England for the UK is so irksome I'm not talking to you until you stop being so blatantly offensive by using this.

I don't deliberately misuse anything.
Accusations of dishonesty are against the
rules, so tread carefully with such barbs.
Then....

Balfour Declaration | History & Impact

Balfour Declaration, statement on November 2, 1917, of British support for ‘the establishment in Palestine of a national home for Jewish people.’ It was made in a letter from the British foreign secretary to a leader of the Anglo-Jewish community and was later included in the British mandate...

www.britannica.com

Now....

UK-Israel strategic partnership explained as Sunak set to condemn Hamas attack

The UK and Israeli governments signed a long-term agreement in March 2023, setting out a plan for the continuation of their strategic partnership

inews.co.uk

We shouldn't take offense at fact & value based
opinions, even about highly charged issues.
We can maintain our equanimity if we so choose.

Do you oppose stopping Israel from committing genocide?