Israel Should Be Stopped

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

Biden & even some in Congress now seem concerned.
But still, USA leaders takes no steps to curb the carnage.
They have the power to stop it.
Instead, it's all talk & no walk.

What inspired this thread?
Israel indends to strike Iran's nuclear facilities in retaliation
for Iran's likely retaliation for Israel's attack on Iran's embassy.
Iran is prepared to respond on a much larger scale.

Missiles of Iran | Missile Threat

Iran possesses the largest and most diverse missile arsenal in the Middle East, with thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles, some capable of striking as far as Israel and southeast Europe. For the past decade, Iran has invested significantly to improve these weapons’ precision and lethality...

missilethreat.csis.org

Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.
This should not happen.

Israel prepared to strike Iranian nuclear facilities if Tehran launches attack – report

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Iran nuclear programme: Threat of Israeli strike grows

As Iran's nuclear programme forges ahead, some see Israel running out of options to thwart it.

www.bbc.com

There were plenty of people that said we should not go to war with Germany, the problem was it wasn't that England or the US wanted war it was that Germany did. Same situation here, it is not that Israel wants war it is that Hamas and Iran want war. You are blaming the wrong people and you are on the wrong side.

 

[shunyadragon]

While that is true, what bearing does that have on this situation and it's justifications?

ALL sides in the conflict justify their own tribal agenda and genocide and war in history. There is a long and relevant history of tribal war and violence by Jews, Christians and Muslims. IT is very very relevant when one takes a one sided emotional bias view of responsibility for the history of the tribal conflicts, No one one is innocent in this conflict,

There remains the placing the burden on Biden concerning how to resolve the conflict ehn Biden can do nothing considering the intrandence of both sides, and he is facing overwhelming support for Israel by the US citizens and the fact the Trump will take a harder line against the Palestinians.

I am actually waiting for an explanation for what Biden could possibly do to end the conflict,

 

[Revoltingest]

There were plenty of people that said we should not go to war with Germany, the problem was it wasn't that England or the US wanted war it was that Germany did. Same situation here, it is not that Israel wants war it is that Hamas and Iran want war. You are blaming the wrong people and you are on the wrong side.

You people see this conflict as picking a side.
Uncritical support for Israel dooms all to war.

I give responsibility for massive civilian death &
destruction to Israel because it's culpable.
This isn't self defense. That would be a very
different set of actions, eg, allowing more private
gun ownership, ending settler invasion of Gaza,
allowing Gaza to thrive economically.

 

[shunyadragon]

I hope you aren't suggesting that
prior genocides justify this one.

Never proposed this, and please cite me fully and correctly. The thousands of years of tribal wars and genocides are very much a part of the history of the NOW. I strongly object to your one sided view of the responsibility of the conflict, death and suffering that is resulting between two intransigent combatants with a tribal religious agenda,

 

[shunyadragon]

You people see this conflict as picking a side.

You people?!?!?! You have strongly emphasized picking a side against Israel. See bold below.

Uncritical support for Israel dooms all to war.

Actually it is more relevant to take a more objective view of the tribal wars in history and today, and NOT take sides,

I give responsibility for massive civilian death &
destruction to Israel because it's culpable.
This isn't self defense. That would be a very
different set of actions, eg, allowing more private
gun ownership, ending settler invasion of Gaza,
allowing Gaza to thrive economically.

The question of self defence here is not what is happening. Both sides justify their efforts at annihilation of the other.tribe.

As above you have an extreme one sided biased against Israel. It is fact as far as this war the Hamas attacked first, but even that is problematic considering the thousands of years of religious war and violence between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which you selectively avoid..

 

[shunyadragon]

Question: What realistically could Biden do to end the war?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

There is a long history of tribal war and violence by Jews, Christians and Muslims. IT is very very relevant when one takes a one sided emotional bias view of responsibility for the history of the tribal conflicts, No one one is innocent in this conflict,

I think this view is a little over-broad and little too callous towards the concept of innocent civilians. You don't have to believe either side are innocent in order to rightly and justifiably believe that one side is committing horrendous acts against innocent parties, or to believe that - while bad actors exist on both sides - the bulk of responsibility for potential solutions lies in the actions of the side with the greater power to do so. I do not think it is relevant to point out the fact that Muslims have committed genocide, unless you genuinely want to imply that the history of a religious movement is in any way relevant to justifying the mass murder of people within that movement (a position that certainly Hamas would agree with, at the very least, and I believe we ought not stoop to this level).

This is not a war-by-genocide between Muslims and Jews. This is a modern, developed nation state using its overwhelming military force and potential war crimes on a territory populated predominantly by civilians in response to acts of murderous terrorism committed against its civilians. I don't think the religion of either side can go any way towards justifying that. You don't solve the issues caused by tribalism by engaging in tribalism.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Question: What realistically could Biden do to end the war?

To end the war? Not much, I imagine.

To end the war crimes? Possibly a lot.

Being stricter on demands for Israel to allow in third-parties to Gaza would be good. Making continued military support or sales of arms contingent on a transparent and full third-party investigation into the ways in which Israel is conducting its operations. Pushing for further negotiation between Hamas and Israel to work towards freeing the hostages.

Thing is, this all would need to be backed up with consequences for Israel if they don't comply, and with assurance that Hamas would too. I'm not sure if any consequence beyond the explicitly military would actually result in follow-through.

 

[shunyadragon]

There were plenty of people that said we should not go to war with Germany, the problem was it wasn't that England or the US wanted war it was that Germany did. Same situation here, it is not that Israel wants war it is that Hamas and Iran want war. You are blaming the wrong people and you are on the wrong side.

I prefer to not take sides between tribal intransigent combatants that advocate the extermination of the other.

 

[shunyadragon]

I think this view is a little over-broad and little too callous towards the concept of innocent civilians. You don't have to believe either side are innocent in order to rightly and justifiably believe that one side is committing horrendous acts against innocent parties, or to believe that - while bad actors exist on both sides - the bulk of responsibility for potential solutions lies in the actions of the side with the greater power to do so. I do not think it is relevant to point out the fact that Muslims have committed genocide, unless you genuinely want to imply that the history of a religious movement is in any way relevant to justifying the mass murder of people within that movement (a position that certainly Hamas would agree with, at the very least, and I believe we ought not stoop to this level).

This is not a war-by-genocide between Muslims and Jews. This is a modern, developed nation state using its overwhelming military force and potential war crimes on a territory populated predominantly by civilians in response to acts of murderous terrorism committed against its civilians. I don't think the religion of either side can go any way towards justifying that. You don't solve the issues caused by tribalism by engaging in tribalism.

I am not being over board enough.

Both sides do now and in the past advocated genocide of the other including the history of genocide in Christianity. You are severely neglecting the history of tribal conflicts, genocide, pogroms, antisemitism, anti- Christian, and anti Islamic violence in history.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am not being over board enough.

Both sides do now and in the past advocated genocide

No, stop. "Both sides do now and in the past advocated" does not mean a damn thing. People in the past and now advocate slavery. People in the past and now advocate racial segregation. People in the past and now advocate hanging homosexuals. You don't use this logic to justify war crimes. It's not, nor ever has been, an excuse, and I think you deliberately equating Gazan civilians with Muslims broadly as if the two are one and the same is every bit as despicable as tarring "all Jews" with the war crimes of the Israeli state.

Stop it.

Again, this is not "Jews vs Muslims". This is a state committing acts against a civilian territory. Address the act, and don't engage in tribalism.

of the other including the history of genocide in Christianity. You are severely neglecting the history of tribal conflicts, genocide, pogroms, antisemitism, anti- Christian, and anti Islamic violence in history.

Why are they relevant? "These things in the past were bad" does not have any bearing on "This thing that's happening now that is also bad".

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I prefer to not take sides between tribal intransigent combatants that advocate the extermination of the other.

You don't have to "take sides" in order to acknowledge when one or the other is engaging in unjustified acts against the other. You can condemn the terroristic acts of a group on one side and still say "I don't believe this justifies disproportionate violence against civilians on that side by the other side". This is not tribalism. It's moral consistency.

 

[shunyadragon]

To end the war? Not much, I imagine.

To end the war crimes? Possibly a lot.

Being stricter on demands for Israel to allow in third-parties to Gaza would be good. Making continued military support or sales of arms contingent on a transparent and full third-party investigation into the ways in which Israel is conducting its operations. Pushing for further negotiation between Hamas and Israel to work towards freeing the hostages.

Thing is, this all would need to be backed up with consequences for Israel if they don't comply, and with assurance that Hamas would too. I'm not sure if any consequence beyond the explicitly military would actually result in follow-through.

Considering the overwhelming support for Israel in Congress and the American people the above needs more explanation. Congress at minimum would not allow Biden to take any action you propose. Biden faces an overwhelming anti Islamic sentiment in the USA.

Israel is intransigent, as well as Hamas, and controls everything in this matter, Conservative Jews threaten to remove the government if any compromise is proposed. vengeance is the mood in Israel, and they have refused all efforts by Biden and others to change. The above needs more explanation as to what Biden could do.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, stop. "Both sides do now and in the past advocated" does not mean a damn thing. People in the past and now advocate slavery. People in the past and now advocate racial segregation. People in the past and now advocate hanging homosexuals. You don't use this logic to justify war crimes. It's not, nor ever has been, an excuse, and I think you deliberately equating Gazan civilians with Muslims broadly as if the two are one and the same is every bit as despicable as tarring "all Jews" with the war crimes of the Israeli state.

Stop it.

Again, this is not "Jews vs Muslims". This is a state committing acts against a civilian territory. Address the act, and don't engage in tribalism.

It is most definitely a "Jews versus Muslims." The Jews of Israel and abroad overwhelmingly support Israel. The Muslims of th Islamic world overwhelmingly support and fund ,Hamas. The dominant Conservative party of Israel have threatened to remove the government if there ia any compromise,

Your view is terribly naive considering the circumstances and history of the violent tribal conflicts.

Why are they relevant? "These things in the past were bad" does not have any bearing on "This thing that's happening now that is also bad".

No, they are not simply the past. They are the product of thousands of years of tribal religious conflict between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You cannot selectively separate history from the present to justify your biased agenda.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Considering the overwhelming support for Israel in Congress and the American people the above needs more explanation. Congress at minimum would not allow Biden to take any action you propose. Biden faces an overwhelming anti Islamic sentiment in the USA.

This is true, and I would assume other posters would know better than I would. It is perhaps unfair to lodge all of these issues purely on the shoulders of Biden, as it is more to do with a political culture and class and the ways in which it is invested in the region, but unfortunately that's a burden Biden chose when he took the office. These things will always, inevitably, stop at his door, and as long as more can be done on any level it is no different to be saying that he could be doing more. If he gets pushback from congress, let him get pushback. At least then we can say that he was trying. Right now, it just seems like he doesn't care, so I can't exactly blame people when, next election season, their disillusion manifests as a total unwillingness to vote for him. I don't think it's a easy job for him to accomplish, but he could at least be seen to be attempting to start trying to accomplish it.

Israel is intransigent, as well as Hamas, and controls everything in this matter, Conservative Jews threaten to remove the government if any compromise is proposed. vengeance is the mood in Israel, and they have refused all efforts by Biden and others to change. The above needs more explanation as to what Biden could do.

I make no assumption as to what Biden, or any world leader, could or would do to fix the internal problems of entirely separate nation states. I leave that up to much better equipped people than myself to deal with. But I think it's folly to suggest that the president of the most powerful military and economic force on the planet is utterly powerless to do anything about war crimes committed by intransigent states. I get that there is a degree to which geopolitics renders the USA unable to meaningfully respond, but at the same time I don't think that's a good enough excuse for the people who are rightly horrified at what seems to be Biden's total disinterest in challenging or suggesting consequences for war crimes, and his continued support of nations engaging in them. It's not enough to simply say "Well, what could he do??". The levers of power must operate in some fashion.

 

[shunyadragon]

You don't have to "take sides" in order to acknowledge when one or the other is engaging in unjustified acts against the other. You can condemn the terroristic acts of a group on one side and still say "I don't believe this justifies disproportionate violence against civilians on that side by the other side". This is not tribalism. It's moral consistency.

I do not take side!?!?!? You do. As in thousands of years of history it is most definitely tribalism by definition.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is most definitely a "Jews versus Muslims." The Jews of Israel and abroad overwhelmingly support Israel. The Muslims of th Islamic world overwhelmingly support and fund ,Hamas/

Your view is terribly naive considering the circumstances and history of the violent tribal conflicts.

You are completely missing my point. Focus on the ACT. Right now, you are the one engaging the tribalism. "Support" is immaterial. I'm concerned about actual material harm and whether or not given acts by states or individual acts cause or relieve harm. My concern is with the harm on both sides caused to CIVILIAN TARGETS and whether or not such acts are justified. Level of support along religious lines are irrelevant. If every single Muslim on the planet presented full-throated support for Hamas, and every single Jew on the planet presented full-throated support for eradicating Gaza, that would not have one shred of bearing on whether or not the arguable indiscriminate shelling of a civilian territory by a significantly more powerful state is justified. Not a single breath of that support, not one drop of saliva, not a single red eye dropping tears, would ever shift the moral compass on that particular act.

No, they are not simply the past. They are the product of thousands of years of tribal religious conflict between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You cannot selectively separate history from the present to justify your biased agenda.

My biased agenda that killing civilians is bad, regardless of what group they belong to?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I do not take side!?!?!? You do.

I would love for you to tell me which side I'm taking. Please, by all means, lecture me on my own position and what it is.

As in thousands of years of history it is most definitely tribalism by definition.

What are you talking about?

Do you even understand the point I'm making?

 

[shunyadragon]

This is true, and I would assume other posters would know better than I would. It is perhaps unfair to lodge all of these issues purely on the shoulders of Biden, as it is more to do with a political culture and class and the ways in which it is invested in the region, but unfortunately that's a burden Biden chose when he took the office. These things will always, inevitably, stop at his door, and as long as more can be done on any level it is no different to be saying that he could be doing more. If he gets pushback from congress, let him get pushback. At least then we can say that he was trying. Right now, it just seems like he doesn't care, so I can't exactly blame people when, next election season, their disillusion manifests as a total unwillingness to vote for him. I don't think it's a easy job for him to accomplish, but he could at least be seen to be attempting to start trying to accomplish it.


I make no assumption as to what Biden, or any world leader, could or would do to fix the internal problems of entirely separate nation states. I leave that up to much better equipped people than myself to deal with. But I think it's folly to suggest that the president of the most powerful military and economic force on the planet is utterly powerless to do anything about war crimes committed by intransigent states. I get that there is a degree to which geopolitics renders the USA unable to meaningfully respond, but at the same time I don't think that's a good enough excuse for the people who are rightly horrified at what seems to be Biden's total disinterest in challenging or suggesting consequences for war crimes, and his continued support of nations engaging in them. It's not enough to simply say "Well, what could he do??". The levers of power must operate in some fashion.

I do not believe you can remotely document Bide's supposed dishonesty given his position. Though Trump is avoiding any position or even comments of proposed resolution leaving it in Biden's lap, which is disingenuous at least.. It is a fact the conservative view is radically pro Israel and anti-Islamic. Biden does not represent this radical position

In what way has Biden been dishonest on this issue???

 

[shunyadragon]

You are completely missing my point. Focus on the ACT. Right now, you are the one engaging the tribalism. "Support" is immaterial. I'm concerned about actual material harm and whether or not given acts by states or individual acts cause or relieve harm. My concern is with the harm on both sides caused to CIVILIAN TARGETS and whether or not such acts are justified. Level of support along religious lines are irrelevant. If every single Muslim on the planet presented full-throated support for Hamas, and every single Jew on the planet presented full-throated support for eradicating Gaza, that would not have one shred of bearing on whether or not the arguable indiscriminate shelling of a civilian territory by a significantly more powerful state is justified. Not a single breath of that support, not one drop of saliva, not a single red eye dropping tears, would ever shift the moral compass on that particular act.


My biased agenda that killing civilians is bad, regardless of what group they belong to?

It is a matter of fact that the relationship between Judaism, Christianity and Islam in history and today is tribalism.

Nothing in the history of the tribal conflicts and today is justified. The regardless of what group?!?!?!? is not reflected in your posts.

You like many others are trying to isolate this conflict and the issues surrounding it in isolation from history.

Indiscriminate violence by Jews and Muslims is not justified.