Israeli Cabinet passes loyalty bill, Arabs angry

[Yona]

You're too close to the trees to see the forest. It's the same.

No, it's not, Ethiopian Jews are black but they are still considered Jews, being a Jew doesn't just always mean being a Jew in terms of ethnicity but also culture and religion. It's not the same, not at all. This bill happened for a specific reason, it's no secrect, if you look at the founding documents of the modern Israel perhaps you'll understand how this isn't the same at all.

 

[arimoff]

You're too close to the trees to see the forest. It's the same.

That's not the point, the point is that regardless of what is the meaning behind the bill it doesn't change anything. Does it effect Israeli Arabs? it doesn't matter neither because amongst those Israeli Arabs there are people who support Israel's destruction, what kind of a citizen are you if you live in a country and support it's destruction?

The way I see it the government passed the bill when the PLO rejected to recognize Israel as a state, as a Jewish state. The main point is that Arabs should get the idea that Israel is a Jewish state with freedom for everybody. Those Arabs who have problems with it will have to swallow it. Is Egypt a Muslim country? is Syria a Muslim country? Is Iran or Saudi Arabia? yes they are so why can't Israel be a Jewish state?

The problem that I have with all of this is the complaints, does Israel stick it's nose in to Arab laws? no so why should all others stick their noses in to Israeli laws? remember that bill was voted by majority.

I want to repeat the main point again. As long as Arab countries deny Israel as a Jewish state such bills will be passed but they will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state because to them it is a religious problem, how can those pigs and monkeys have a state. If you research deep in to Islam you will see that it is a slap to the face to them that Jews have a home and Jerusalem is their capital. Facts are Facts and rather then sitting here arguing how democratic the law is try to understand the point of conflict.

 

[Bismillah]

Does it effect Israeli Arabs? it doesn't matter neither because amongst those Israeli Arabs there are people who support Israel's destruction, what kind of a citizen are you if you live in a country and support it's destruction?

Wow It's always a surprise how you manage to bring in racism in ever single one of your posts. I guess that is one thing you are good at. You are stating that all Israeli Arabs support the destruction of Israel.

Those Arabs who have problems with it will have to swallow it.

Are Israeli Arab concerns less important than those of Israeli Jews?

The problem that I have with all of this is the complaints, does Israel stick it's nose in to Arab laws? no so why should all others stick their noses in to Israeli laws? remember that bill was voted by majority.

How many Israeli Arab politicians agreed to it? Like I have said before, just because I don't live in Israel doesn't mean I can't criticize its laws. This is such a basic thing, I'm not sure why you have so much trouble with it.

how can those pigs and monkeys have a state

There you go wallowing in self pity again, I was wondering when it would happen. I've noticed this is your traditional soundbite that you fall back on in almost every thread. It really does get old.

 

[croak]

No, it's not, Ethiopian Jews are black but they are still considered Jews, being a Jew doesn't just always mean being a Jew in terms of ethnicity but also culture and religion. It's not the same, not at all. This bill happened for a specific reason, it's no secrect, if you look at the founding documents of the modern Israel perhaps you'll understand how this isn't the same at all.

I think you're confusing race with ethnicity. From what I understand, Ethiopian Jews believe that they are descendants of Israelite tribes. Whether that is the case or not should not have an impact on their ethnicity, I don't think.

I think a thread on Jewish ethnicity might be an idea....

 

[Yona]

I think you're confusing race with ethnicity.

Strike and switch then.

 

[kai]

I don't see how this loyalty oath could do anything besides upset Arab-Israelis. I mean, if someone passed a bill in the US making it necessary to swear allegiance to the "White Democracy of America", why wouldn't anyone be upset?

I was just wondering if it upsets Christian- Israelis ?

 

[dust1n]

Are you seriously this dense? If you are to stupid by now to get what I'm saying then I'm about to just stop responding to you because this is ridiculous. The oath of loyalty is asking that Israeli-Arab-Muslims will be loyal to the Israeli state and to not support, fund, be active in or be a member of organizations which seek to destroy Israel or nations which seek the destruction of Israel. That's it, good G-d.

You keep forget to include the only thing anyone is complaining about. The oath of loyalty is asking that Israeli-Arab-MUSLIMS will be loyal to a JEWISH Israeli State. I understand it includes not to be a member of organizations... I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS. So, what does Iran have to do with Muslim politicians commandingly pledging loyalty to a Jewish state?

Where and how? I want you too fully flesh out this assertion.

If your government requires its elected politicians to take an oath to any religious association, than it is religiously unequal.

Reductio ad ridiculum? Please, that is a stretch, how so? I am getting the feeling you are using terms which you don't fully understand because my arguments in no way match the terms you throwing out. Argumentum ad verecundiam? Again, that's a laugh. How? I want you to fully demonstrate how my arguments are X.

Appeal to Authority

1. Source A says that p is true.
2. Source A is authoritative.
3. Therefore, p is true.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you live in Israel? If no, then you're opinion is pretty meaningless. Not only this but no one is being persecuted by this bill, no one's rights are being taken away and if you don't live in Israel you're opinion doesn't mean much. Come on now.

You attempted to dismiss my argument by claiming my nationality rendered it meaningless.


Appeal to ridicule, also called appeal to mockery, the Horse Laugh,[1] or reductio ad ridiculum (Latin: "reduction to the ridiculous"), is a logical fallacy which presents the opponent's argument in a way that appears ridiculous, often to the extent of creating a straw man of the actual argument, rather than addressing the argument itself. For example:

• If Einstein's theory of relativity is right, that would mean that when I drive my car it gets shorter and more massive the faster I go. That's crazy! (This is, in fact, true, but the effect is so minuscule a human observer will not notice when it's observed on object without near-light speed.)
• As the theory of evolution Is true, that would mean that all the apes wouldn't be here any more, since they all would have evolved into humans! (This is not true as it is not implied by the theory of evolution.)

This is a rhetorical tactic which mocks an opponent's argument, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight the counter-intuitive aspects of that argument, making it appear foolish and contrary to common sense.

Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll stop you there, are you serious? You don't know why I brought up Iran? Do you not read much news? It's no secret that tensions between Israel and Iran are very high at the moment. I am not 'claiming' anything, this is fact.




I don't even think you 'get it'.

A Jewish and Democratic State - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Need I say more?


The perfect solution fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists and/or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented. This is a classic example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between things, and as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_solution_fallacy

I never said there wouldn't be anger or resentment but they can either conform or get out.

 

[Etritonakin]

When the U.S. pledge of allegiance was first written -even when it was made the official national pledge -there was really no reason to specify "White". Also, the words "equality" and "fraternity" were intentionally left out of it by the author "knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans." (From the Wiki)
I don't think anyone thought they were pledging allegiance to native Americans, either.

I'm just sayin'

 

[dust1n]

When the U.S. pledge of allegiance was first written -even when it was made the official national pledge -there was really no reason to specify "White". Also, the words "equality" and "fraternity" were intentionally left out of it by the author "knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans." (From the Wiki)
I don't think anyone thought they were pledging allegiance to native Americans, either.

I'm just sayin'

Yah, sometimes founded documents deserved to be revised.

 

[Etritonakin]

Well -unless you want to add "White Democracy", there is no reason -as the "republic" has changed -and the powers-that-be are quite integrated/mixed -whatever you want to call it.

As for Isreal and Jews -Jews were there a long time before Israel became recognized. They didn't go hog wild slaughtering the middle east's equivalent to the native Americans (if they aren't the equivalent themselves) -they simply wanted to make sure Jews -SPECIFICALLY -had a place to call home -somewhere they can go if another Hitler type goes berserk and SPECIFICALLY targets them for genocide. The Arabs, etc. attacked -got a whoopin' -lost land -and here we are.

Biblically speaking, they will, sadly, again be attacked -for a sustained three and a half years -(partly as a correction for some of their own ways by the God who loves them)... after which Christ will return and teach and enforce peace.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

 

[dust1n]

Well -unless you want to add "White Democracy", there is no reason -as the "republic" has changed -and the powers-that-be are quite integrated/mixed -whatever you want to call it.

The republic changed in 1868 with the 14th Amendment. I was referring to this situation as a time when it is obvious to address a problem in the basic foundations of a government.

As for Isreal and Jews -Jews were there a long time before Israel became recognized.

There were far more Arabs at the time, but whatever.

They didn't go hog wild slaughtering the middle east's equivalent to the native Americans (if they aren't the equivalent themselves) -they simply wanted to make sure Jews -SPECIFICALLY -had a place to call home -somewhere they can go if another Hitler type goes berserk and SPECIFICALLY targets them for genocide. The Arabs, etc. attacked -got a whoopin' -lost land -and here we are.

What saddens me is that there have been plenty of genocides in this world, but only one has been addressed. Also very sad that it is Europeans who were the one who persecuted Jews, and after Hitler, all Europeans did was send them into land taken in WW1 from the Ottoman Empire.

 

[arimoff]

Wow It's always a surprise how you manage to bring in racism in ever single one of your posts. I guess that is one thing you are good at. You are stating that all Israeli Arabs support the destruction of Israel.

Are Israeli Arab concerns less important than those of Israeli Jews?
As much as Arab Muslims care about Arab Jews.

How many Israeli Arab politicians agreed to it? Like I have said before, just because I don't live in Israel doesn't mean I can't criticize its laws. This is such a basic thing, I'm not sure why you have so much trouble with it.
Criticizing it is one thing, being a hypocrite is another.

There you go wallowing in self pity again, I was wondering when it would happen. I've noticed this is your traditional soundbite that you fall back on in almost every thread. It really does get old.

O trust me I don't care what you or dustin1 or anybody else thinks or feels as long as you don't interfere with my or anybody else's rights based on their believes, specifically Jews. You clearly have problems with Jews you have replied to everything I said other then it is being a religious Muslim fight against Jews, you did not reply to it because it is the truth and after that you are trying to claim that im whining. Guess what it's not called whining it is called self defense but a different self defense, verbal, something the Arab world not used to.

Don't reply to my posts if you have nothing logical to say. You haven't answered one of my posts, constant blames, look in to your backyard for once, it is full of rotten eggs and to cover up for it you are trying to blame the other.

The bill is voted in. live with it, and as an American respect it because it was democratically voted in by majority, if you can't no body really cares.

And if you really feel the pain for your Muslim brothers get on Arab leaders a**es to get them to actually help rather then blaming others, what happened? I don't think allah would be really happy that Arabs are using Muslims as scape goats to pursue their interests but yet all I hear is how holly you all are. Get a grip man.

 

[dust1n]

O trust me I don't care what you or dustin1 or anybody else thinks or feels as long as you don't interfere with my or anybody else's rights based on their believes, specifically Jews.

Yet you support a bill that just does that.

 

[Bismillah]

you have replied to everything I said other then it is being a religious Muslim fight against Jews, you did not reply to it because it is the truth and after that you are trying to claim that im whiningp

It would be idiotically simplistic and blatantly wrong to claim the conflict between Jews and Arabs was religiously motivated. Not that it matters because we are talking about Israeli Arabs, but like you have repeatedly reduced them down to their nationality and made several broad statements that state that "Arabs hate Jews" your racism of Israelis is really disgusting and just furthers my point of natural born citizens being officially recognized as second class citizens.

The bill is voted in. live with it, and as an American respect it because it was democratically voted in by majority,

Huh It's not the rights of the majority we worry about here in America Tell me how many people who would be negatively affected by this bill voted for it? How many Israeli Arabs voted for this bill. I'm sure the other side did just fine in mustering up the required votes

As much as Arab Muslims care about Arab Jews.

What the hell does this even mean? I asked are Israeli Arabs any less important than Israeli Jews and you reply with this? I love how foreigners reduce the nationality status of Arabs to prioritize their political agenda. The majority of Israeli Arabs I have met would rather live in Israel than in Palestine. They aren't hypocrites and traitors as your racist statements indicate and this bill truly hurts those Israelis that have a long term interest in that country.

 

[YmirGF]

I think the Israeli government has the right to pass any damn bill it pleases. It is their jobs that are on the line and if the citizens don't like their decisions I am confident said government will be sent packing. What is more interesting is if any subsequent government would repeal the bill.

 

[arimoff]

Yet you support a bill that just does that.

No I support the bill because it defends the survival of a country and it does not force Arabs to become Jews or die. Big difference.

 

[arimoff]

It would be idiotically simplistic and blatantly wrong to claim the conflict between Jews and Arabs was religiously motivated. Not that it matters because we are talking about Israeli Arabs, but like you have repeatedly reduced them down to their nationality and made several broad statements that state that "Arabs hate Jews" your racism of Israelis is really disgusting and just furthers my point of natural born citizens being officially recognized as second class citizens.

Huh It's not the rights of the majority we worry about here in America Tell me how many people who would be negatively affected by this bill voted for it? How many Israeli Arabs voted for this bill. I'm sure the other side did just fine in mustering up the required votes

What the hell does this even mean? I asked are Israeli Arabs any less important than Israeli Jews and you reply with this? I love how foreigners reduce the nationality status of Arabs to prioritize their political agenda. The majority of Israeli Arabs I have met would rather live in Israel than in Palestine. They aren't hypocrites and traitors as your racist statements indicate and this bill truly hurts those Israelis that have a long term interest in that country.
[/COLOR]

I think you lost your self, what Israeli Arabs are we talking about? they come they take the oath, and? what is so bad about taking the oath for Israeli Arab? yes it is a Jewish state but so what? no body bothered that Arab taking the oath and no body will, now the Arab who is perusing terrorism will not be taking the oath because he is driven by religious ideology in witch Israel cannot be a Jewish state. Either you are blind or you lack any kind of logic what so ever.

Just because you are a Muslim do you pledge to America as a Muslim country or as America? or just because you are a Muslim should we now make America Muslim? people come and go America stays America. People come and go Israel stays Israel a Jewish state.

Are Israeli Arabs less important then Israeli Jews? (by the way to me Israeli and Jewish is the same thing, so there are no Israeli Arabs, there are only Arabs who live in a Jewish land, if you have a problem with that study Judaism) anyways I believe Israeli Arabs should be treated the same way as Jewish Arabs are being treated in Arab lands.
what goes around should always come around. Enough is enough, how hungry is the dog? no matter how much you feed it, it wants more and more. It is very rude for Arabs/Muslims to demand respect and rights for Arabs living in Jewish land including Gaza when in return it doesn't give the same respect to Jews living in Arab lands, heck they don't even provide enough rights for their own people. Arabs in Israel enjoy allot more freedom then they would get at home.

By the way visit Israel and notice how aggressive and hostile Arabs are specifically in Jerusalem, they openly show they want Jews out of there, the bill should have been passed years ago.

 

[LuisDantas]

No I support the bill because it defends the survival of a country.

Are countries always worth defending? The survival and quality of life of the people, sure, those must always be defended.

But the existence of such an abstract and ultimately unneeded construct such as a country? That I can hardly see as something to protect at any price.

 

[LuisDantas]

By the way visit Israel and notice how aggressive and hostile Arabs are specifically in Jerusalem, they openly show they want Jews out of there, the bill should have been passed years ago.

You really think the bill will bring some sort of peace or stability, don't you?

Still, the text above is essentially an admission that it is pointless at best. What boggles the mind is that such a people as the Jewish, of all people, would make it a point to oppress minorities in their land. I must be misunderstanding something about what I have learned of the history of Jewish People in Europe.

 

[arimoff]

Are countries always worth defending? The survival and quality of life of the people, sure, those must always be defended.

But the existence of such an abstract and ultimately unneeded construct such as a country? That I can hardly see as something to protect at any price.

I might agree with you on this one but I'm sorry we Jews can't move out to the moon.