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Israeli Duty to Warn? What unmitigated gall (chutzpah)

Israeli Duty to Warn? What unmitigated gall (chutzpah)


  • Total voters
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Colt

Well-Known Member
2002 The Guardian

LoL!----->This article is more than 21 years old

Arafat didn't negotiate - he just kept saying no​


Written by Benny Morris


Ever since the start of the second Palestinian intifada, a row has raged over who was responsible for the breakdown of the peace process. Now, for the first time, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak has weighed in, accusing Yasser Arafat of being a liar who talked peace while secretly plotting the destruction of Israel.

Interview by Benny Morris
Wed 22 May 2002 21.25 EDT

"The call from Bill Clinton came hours after the publication in the New York Times of a "revisionist" article on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. On holiday, Ehud Barak, Israel's former prime minister, was swimming in a cove in Sardinia. According to Barak, Clinton said: "What the hell is this? Why is she turning the mistakes we [ie, the US and Israel] made into the essence? The true story of Camp David was that for the first time in the history of the conflict the American president put on the table a proposal, based on UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, very close to the Palestinian demands, and Arafat refused even to accept it as a basis for negotiations, walked out of the room, and deliberately turned to terrorism."

Clinton was speaking of the two-week-long Camp David conference in July 2000 which he had organised and mediated and its failure, and the eruption at the end of September of the Palestinian intifada which has continued since. Halfway through the conference, apparently on July 18, Clinton had "slowly" - to avoid misunderstanding - read out to Arafat a document, endorsed in advance by Barak, outlining the main points of a future settlement. The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarised Palestinian state on some 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy "functional autonomy"; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and "custodianship," though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no "right of return" to Israel proper; and the organisation by the international community of a massive aid programme to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation.


Arafat said no. Enraged, Clinton banged on the table and said: "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe." A formal Palestinian rejection of the proposals reached the Americans the next day. The summit sputtered on for a few days more but to all intents and purposes it was over.

Today Barak portrays Arafat's behaviour at Camp David as a "performance" geared to exacting from the Israelis as many concessions as possible without ever seriously intending to reach a peace settlement or sign an "end to the conflict".

"He did not negotiate in good faith; indeed, he did not negotiate at all. He just kept saying no to every offer, never making any counterproposals of his own," he says. Barak shifts between charging Arafat with "lacking the character or will" to make a historic compromise (as did the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1977-79, when he made peace with Israel) to accusing him of secretly planning Israel's demise while he strings along a succession of Israeli and Western leaders and, on the way, hoodwinks "naive journalists".

"What they [Arafat and his colleagues] want is a Palestinian state in all of Palestine," says Barak. "What we see as self-evident, [the need for] two states for two peoples, they reject. Israel is too strong at the moment to defeat, so they formally recognise it. But their game plan is to establish a Palestinian state while always leaving an opening for further 'legitimate' demands down the road. They will exploit the tolerance and democracy of Israel first to turn it into 'a state for all its citizens', as demanded by the extreme nationalist wing of Israel's Arabs and extremist leftwing Jewish Israelis. Then they will push for a binational state and then demography and attrition will lead to a state with a Muslim majority and a Jewish minority. This would not necessarily involve kicking out all the Jews. But it would mean the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. This, I believe, is their vision. Arafat sees himself as a reborn Saladin - the Kurdish Muslim general who defeated the Crusaders in the 12th century - and Israel as just another, ephemeral Crusader state."

CONT> Arafat didn't negotiate - he just kept saying no
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
That's a cross up. UN Res 181 is what enabled an israel to exist.

What is the authority to you and would substantiate any consideration of following rules?

Violence?

I'd go with honesty and logic, both of which are in short supply at the UN when considering the ME.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Most everyone comprehends that the 'city of blood' is central to all 3 religions of abraham.
.
But the world is against the taking of.

UN res 478
Recalling its resolution 476 (1980),
Reaffirming again that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,
Deeply concerned over the enactment of a "basic law" in the Israeli Knesset proclaiming a change in the character
and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, with its implications for peace and security,
Noting that Israel has not complied with resolution 476 (1980)

Religiously (tanach and bible) and legally (security council), the location is not israel and not to be touched.

But I understand that some dont care and expect to make the rules as they see fit
I know what the decisions of the UN. The problem is that it was incredibly short sighted of them. If you want to give the Muslims a good excuse to start a war? Take away Mecca and put it in the hands of their enemies. They did the same with Israel. That doesn't excuse Israel's illegal actions, but one can understand why they took them.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Both sides bare the consequences of their actions.

We all know Hamas purpose(they will never recognize the state of Israel) but still they operate. Why?
We also know that Israel is just making everything worse , and still nothing is done.Why?

It's very sad that many took sides, and that's how the agony continues..

Nobody wants to stand in the middle and take control of the situation.Why?

Israel will enter Gaza and what will that trigger no one knows.
Not just in Israel , but outside also.

This vandetta will continue beyond borders and there is a possibility that innocent people will sufer.

There's protests all around the World , i have seen many interviews where media figures call on actions and power.

Is this not a threat to international security and peace?
U.N. has to interfere as soon as possible,or this will spread very soon..
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I'd go with honesty and logic, both of which are in short supply at the UN when considering the ME.
This was the final 2 state offer that Israel proposed and Arafat walked away from in 2002

cd2000map.gif



2000 Camp David Summit Maps:Camp David Maps: Table of Contents
The Israeli proposal at Camp David to divide Jerusalem into two parts (which was rejected by Arafat) included the following main points:

1. Jewish areas outside Jerusalem's municipal boundaries would be annexed to the city, including Givat Ze’ev, Ma’aleh Adumim and Gush Etzion.
2. Arab areas outside Jerusalem's municipal boundaries would become the heart of the new Arab city of Al-Quds, including Abu Dis, el-Azaria, Beit Jala, Anata and A-Ram.
3. Arab neighborhoods inside Jerusalem’s present boundaries would either be annexed to Al-Quds or would be granted extensive self-rule.
4. Jerusalem's walled Old City would be divided, with the Muslim and Christian quarters offered autonomy under formal Israeli sovereignty while the Jewish and Armenian quarters remained fully under Israeli rule. The Palestinian state would gain religious autonomy over the Temple Mount.
bluebox.gif
Present municipal boundaries
greenbox.gif
Jewish areas to be annexed to Jerusalem
redbox.gif
Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem to be ceded to Al-Quds
orangebox.gif
Arab areas outside Jerusalem to be designated Al-Quds
blackbox.gif
Old City to be divided between Jerusalem and Al-Quds
divided_jerusalem.gif
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
This was the final 2 state offer that Israel proposed and Arafat walked away from in 2002

View attachment 83469


2000 Camp David Summit Maps:Camp David Maps: Table of Contents
The Israeli proposal at Camp David to divide Jerusalem into two parts (which was rejected by Arafat) included the following main points:


bluebox.gif
Present municipal boundaries
greenbox.gif
Jewish areas to be annexed to Jerusalem
redbox.gif
Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem to be ceded to Al-Quds
orangebox.gif
Arab areas outside Jerusalem to be designated Al-Quds
blackbox.gif
Old City to be divided between Jerusalem and Al-Quds

View attachment 83470
And at other times, Israel walked away from a two state solution. What’s your point?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
And at other times, Israel walked away from a two state solution. What’s your point?
It was an amazing offer by Israel which ultimately proved that the hard liners on the Palestinian side don't really want a 2-state deal. Israel really, really bent and capitulated!
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
The problem is that it was incredibly short sighted of them.
How is that. The designation was as a neutral city, unbiased to any side. UN RES 181
If you want to give the Muslims a good excuse to start a war? Take away Mecca and put it in the hands of their enemies.
Pointing to another location is a tangent
They did the same with Israel.
No they didn't. Israel was born by UN res 181 and Jerusalem was not included in the appropriation to be Israel.
That doesn't excuse Israel's illegal actions, but one can understand why they took them.
There is no understanding of the land grab. Nothing substantiates the unilateral taking. It was a retribution or retaliation focused on taking from muslims when it never was a muslim designation per the resolution. The location (city) was a neutral designation for all 3 of the religions of abraham.

Read the resolution
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Since Israel is planning an land invasion they would be smart to warn citizens before rocket attacks. This will aid in good will. The last thing an occupying force wants is a pissed off citizenry who will wage guerrilla warfare. If the warning serves any purpose it will be to disrupt Hamas so they will be less organized and less able to fire rockets.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How is that. The designation was as a neutral city, unbiased to any side. UN RES 181

Pointing to another location is a tangent

No they didn't. Israel was born by UN res 181 and Jerusalem was not included in the appropriation to be Israel.

There is no understanding of the land grab. Nothing substantiates the unilateral taking. It was a retribution or retaliation focused on taking from muslims when it never was a muslim designation per the resolution. The location (city) was a neutral designation for all 3 of the religions of abraham.

Read the resolution
And you need to check your history.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member

Part III. - City of Jerusalem(5)

A. SPECIAL REGIME​

The City of Jerusalem shall be established as a corpus separatum under a special international regime and shall be administered by the United Nations. The Trusteeship Council shall be designated to discharge the responsibilities of the Administering Authority on behalf of the United Nations

Read the resolution at Yale.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Listening to USA US officials, I hear the same pro-Israel
propaganda, ie, that Hamas wants Israel destroyed.
They latch onto this for the purpose of ignoring why
Hamas has support. USA continues to excuse Israel's
killing more Palestinian civilians than Israel has lost,
to destroy Palestinian homes, to evict Palestinians
from Gaza, to take more Palestinian land, to allow
Israeli citizens to attack Palestinians, & to cut off
their food & utilities.
USA is complicit in Israel's oppression....
- Turning a blind eye to Israel's illegal acts.
- Propping up Israeli aggression financially.
- Repeating Israeli propaganda.
The one that bugs me, is the scope of 'everyone hate us/me/jews".

Nothing warrants or substantiates what HAMAS has done but likewise of the other team. It is just ugly to see just how much bias exists.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Since Israel is planning an land invasion they would be smart to warn citizens before rocket attacks. This will aid in good will. The last thing an occupying force wants is a pissed off citizenry who will wage guerrilla warfare. If the warning serves any purpose it will be to disrupt Hamas so they will be less organized and less able to fire rockets.
As of this Am, they report 11 UN workers have been killed in GAZA. Indiscriminate bombings! The UN workers are remaining in Hospitals and schools, to avoid being caught within cross fire and to centralize assistance capabilities.

The UN will not be there if HAMAS is using those locations.

Can someone tell the IDF and reporting venues to stop claiming HAMAS is using them sites for rockets and arms depots? Nothing substantiates bombing Hospitals and schools, when the UN is clearly not arming or supporting anything HAMAS.

When I watched the UN making the statements about their loses and where they are, made my hair stand up.
 

jbg

Active Member
What Israel is doing is war crime under the Forth Geneva Convention.Nobody is taking sides , i said that response is needed.
Palestinian people need assistence to survive just as Israel needs assestence to stop this madness.
2.2 milion people live in Gaza
What is Israel to do, stop existing?
 

jbg

Active Member
Because the UN created the lines and israel continues to annex more land. For example: Jerusalem is not israel per the majority on the earth

"Illegal" occupier of golan, west bank and jerusalem

Has nothing to do with the religions of islam. (plural)

The annexation of Jerusalem is 50% based on religion and 50% based on retribution/retaliation. 67' land grab.
Per "the majority of the earth" the Jews should not exist at all!
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
What is Israel to do, stop existing?
Helping the civilians is not helping HAMAS.


That little group HAMAS cannot stop israel from existing.

That's about as crazy as suggesting that Jews must have Jerusalem.

How do people make such extreme claims? What substantiates the hype?
 
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Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Per "the majority of the earth" the Jews should not exist at all!
How is that? The majority represented at and by the UN created israel and even now are willing to defend israel.

Do you actually believe a group of rogue terrorist could destroy israel?

Does your news venue actually publish such rubbish?

Or is it just normal for the extreme language just to beg for more money?
 
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