It is possible that Jesus sinned.

[CMike]

Yah, except according to orthodox Xtian teaching, Jesus is fully G-D, and that G-D is one God in three Persons, so therefore is not a "different God."

Where do I even start? There is so much contradictory material.

• Jesus said you must pray through him to get to G-D. Thus stating he is a different entity
• Jesus said he prayed to G-D. Thus stating he is a different entity
• Jesus when he was executed asked G-D "why have you forsaken me" Thus stating he is a different entity

Jesus made it clear that he is a different divinical entity

And if the teaching is correct, then it seems to me that G-D is fully capable of fulfilling laws that G-D gave.

Yeah, but it's not. Jesus proclaimed himself a different divinical entity by the above statements.

From Deuteronomy "The Lo-rd is our G-D, the L-rd is one.

So this god three stuff is all christian inventions that directly contradict the numerous passages where G-D said he was One and to trust only him.

And, if the teaching is correct, then G-D cannot challenge G-D's authority -- no matter what Person we're dealing with

.

I don't know about your god, but my G-D is extremely powerful. A bunch of Romans wouldn't be able to execute him.

The G-D of the jews put a protective cloud over the jews to protect them. The G-D of the jews protected Moses from being killed.

The god became man thing really makes no logical sense.

Plus, "fulfilling" =/= "changing."

.

There is no changing. G-D said not to add nor subtract from the law.

Therefore, by creating his own law, he is directly challenging G-D, the real one.

Sorry. I don't see it. If you're going to argue "Jesus," then Jesus must be argued from a Xtian POV, since Jesus is only available through a Xtian POV to begin with. And the Xtian POV is that Jesus is fully God. God cannot, by definition, sin against God's self.

.

Then I'm sure you would agree that the Torah may only be interpreted from a jewish point of view, correct?

The title of the thread is tdid jesus sin? The answer is yes.

He sinned greatly by proclaiming himself a god and trying to lead jews astray to worship him.

There is only one G-D, and only he can be worshipped. Anything else is considered idol worship according to the Torah.

 

[CMike]

We Christians are not going to see it that way and don't see it that way. Your answer is applicable for you since you don't view Jesus the same way as we do but it isn't applicable to us.

Very true.

 

[CMike]

Jesus Christ has power over the law,

No, he didn't. The Torah was from G-D.

He weakens the law in His wisdom,law is the strength of sin,He weakens sin through law,that is why He uses questions to answer questions by the law upholders.Jesus never sin He knew the secret and all the arrangements,satan came as usual but failed.

What?

 

[sojourner]

Jesus said you must pray through him to get to G-D. Thus stating he is a different entity
Jesus said he prayed to G-D. Thus stating he is a different entity
Jesus when he was executed asked G-D "why have you forsaken me" Thus stating he is a different entity
Jesus made it clear that he is a different divinical entity

What's clear is that you don't understand either the texts or the doctrine well enough to critique either.

Jesus said that we must come to the Father through him (the Son). Jesus said that he prayed to the Father.

Jesus was quoting psalm 22 -- not speaking directly to God.

Yeah, but it's not. Jesus proclaimed himself a different divinical entity by the above statements.

BZZZZZZZT
Thanks for playing.

From Deuteronomy "The Lo-rd is our G-D, the L-rd is one.

So this god three stuff is all christian inventions that directly contradict the numerous passages where G-D said he was One and to trust only him.

the Trinity doctrine also asserts that God is one. Your point is moot.

I don't know about your god, but my G-D is extremely powerful. A bunch of Romans wouldn't be able to execute him.

God is powerful enough to limit that power enough to become Incarnate and reconcile humanity. God is powerful enough to overcome death through resurrection.

The G-D of the jews put a protective cloud over the jews to protect them. The G-D of the jews protected Moses from being killed.

The God of the Jews protected humanity by reconciling humanity.

The god became man thing really makes no logical sense.

Huh. The whole God thing really makes no logical sense, so I don't see your point.

There is no changing. G-D said not to add nor subtract from the law.

Who added or subtracted? "Fulfilling" =/= "adding/subtracting."

Therefore, by creating his own law, he is directly challenging G-D, the real one.

What "his own law" did Jesus create?

Then I'm sure you would agree that the Torah may only be interpreted from a jewish point of view, correct?

Well... it's your Law, so that only makes sense. But Torah only applies to Jews. The great preponderance of Xy is Gentile, so Torah, in it's literal sense, does not apply to most of us.

The title of the thread is tdid jesus sin? The answer is yes.

You've yet to show that he did.

He sinned greatly by proclaiming himself a god and trying to lead jews astray to worship him.

Where did Jesus "proclaim himself a god?" Book,chapter, verse, plz.

There is only one G-D, and only he can be worshipped.

Jesus said the same thing. So does the Church.

Anything else is considered idol worship according to the Torah.

Nobody's worshiping anyone but God.

 

[ChristineES]

Sojourner's right. There are an increasing number of Christians who are now saying Jesus isn't G-d and didn't say He was G-d. Also, I've been doing a lot of researching and virtually everything that Jesus taught was also in the Tanakh. Some differences include divorce (it is allowed in the Torah, but Jesus said it shouldn't be done). But when Jesus prayed, He only prayed to G-D.

 

[Awoon]

Sojourner's right. There are an increasing number of Christians who are now saying Jesus isn't G-d and didn't say He was G-d. Also, I've been doing a lot of researching and virtually everything that Jesus taught was also in the Tanakh. Some differences include divorce (it is allowed in the Torah, but Jesus said it shouldn't be done). But when Jesus prayed, He only prayed to G-D.

Did Jesus explain he reason against divorce? It was simple for a husband to put away his wife in ancient times because women were property. Women weren't skilled in work, couldn't read or write. So for a husband to just divorce his wife for any reason would hurtful to her and society . She would most likely end up in prostitution. Jesus wasn't against divorce for proper reasons.

 

[ChristineES]

Like wise Christians should never ever attempt to view and interpret the Tanac the way Jews do.

Well, Thank G-D Most High that I've never done that.

 

[Awoon]

Well, Thank G-D Most High that I've never done that.

Why thank God? You apparently choose not to do that by your owe reasoning.

 

[nash8]

As a child and teenager I read furiously but had no education. It wasn't until young adulthood that I began to put together an historical and geographical picture of the world. Suddenly things began to crystalize. If I read 'A Tale of Two Cities' now it wasn't a magical, mythical story in some unspecified time and place but rather it was a series of events set in the French Revolution.

Likewise with the gospel story. If it really happened, it happened in a time and a place. We know the place, but what about the time?

So I'm trying to figure that out. Right now it is seeming to me that Paul wouldn't have had time to persecute Christians unless there were Christians around 0-10 CE.

The problem is that the French revolution happened less than 400 years ago, during a time, when a larger percentage of the population was could read and write, and thus more accurately accord the events of the time. Not to mention the fact that we still have entire first hand documents written to record the event.

The Bible was recorded during a time when most could not read or write, and most of the original documents that we have today exist only in fragments.

How do you get 0 - 10 CE? Jesus was crucified anywhere between 30 -36 AD. Paul's conversion occured somewhere between 35 - 40 AD. That leaves a time period of anywhere between 1 to 10 years for him to persecute Christians.

Also many consider Paul to be a Pharisee, so it is quite possible that he persecuted Christians (Jesus' followers) while Jesus was actually alive, as the Pharisees were one of the groups that Jesus outwardly spoke against.

Of course he sinned...he sinned greatly.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

LOL, or maybe Jesus was speaking about that particular God, and others perverted his message?

Did Jesus explain he reason against divorce? It was simple for a husband to put away his wife in ancient times because women were property. Women weren't skilled in work, couldn't read or write. So for a husband to just divorce his wife for any reason would hurtful to her and society . She would most likely end up in prostitution. Jesus wasn't against divorce for proper reasons.

Why would you think this wasn't the reason Jesus was against divorce? He obviously had sympathy for the plight of women according to scriptural passages. What "unproper" reasons do you think Jesus had for being against divorce during that time period?

 

[Awoon]

Property. Woman were Property by dowries.

 

[nash8]

Property. Woman were Property by dowries.

So you argue that Jesus' reasons for opposing divorce was to promote men retaining their property?

 

[Awoon]

So you argue that Jesus' reasons for opposing divorce was to promote men retaining their property?

Nope.

 

[nash8]

Nope.

So what exactly are you trying to argue here?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The problem is that the French revolution happened less than 400 years ago, during a time, when a larger percentage of the population was could read and write, and thus more accurately accord the events of the time. Not to mention the fact that we still have entire first hand documents written to record the event.

If we can't put first-century Biblical events into some kind of rough order, with some kind of rough time-range, then those events seem like myth to me -- a story unattached to the physical, historical world.

But I'm criticized and attacked for suggesting that Jesus was probably not historical.

So I'm asking if anyone can line up those events for me in a way which makes sense. For example, if Saul was a young man, in Jerusalem, for the stoning of Stephen, then in what year could that possibly have happened? I sure can't make sense of it. Can you?

How do you get 0 - 10 CE? Jesus was crucified anywhere between 30 -36 AD. Paul's conversion occured somewhere between 35 - 40 AD. That leaves a time period of anywhere between 1 to 10 years for him to persecute Christians.

I started a thread in this forum (I think) called 'Jesus/Paul Questions.' There's a challenge to arrange 7-8 events in chronological order, with rough dates. (Or to mark them as probably false events.)

Maybe you could look at that if you're interested.

 

[Awoon]

So what exactly are you trying to argue here?

It is written that a written divorcement could be given to a wife for any reason. Jesus is recorded as saying that the only grounds for divorce was fornication.

 

[Ouroboros]

Do you agree or disagree with this debate?

My first thought reading your post is why and how there can be any debate about something absolute and non-subjective as sin. Isn't sin sin? How can morality, ethics, sin, etc be built only on an supposed absolute construct through a literal holy book and a holy spirit guiding people be questioned or even discussed? It should resolve itself just by stating it. No?

Obviously the concept of "sin" is convoluted and vague, or this would never have been an issue.

 

[roger1440]

Did Jesus explain he reason against divorce? It was simple for a husband to put away his wife in ancient times because women were property. Women weren't skilled in work, couldn't read or write. So for a husband to just divorce his wife for any reason would hurtful to her and society . She would most likely end up in prostitution. Jesus wasn't against divorce for proper reasons.

This may explain a little:

Grounds for Divorce in God's Law
Matthew 19 Commentary - Grounds for Divorce in God's Law - BibleGateway.com

 

[CMike]

What's clear is that you don't understand either the texts or the doctrine well enough to critique either.

Jesus said that we must come to the Father through him (the Son). Jesus said that he prayed to the Father.

That is exactly my point. Jesus claims he is a different divinical entity. Since he claimed to be "the Son".

However, G-D said he is One, and there is only him. Therefore, he is challenging G-D.

Jesus was quoting psalm 22 -- not speaking directly to God.

There are numerous things to quote from.

"Why have you forsaken me?" is a really whimpy thing to say.

The true great jewish people when being executed proclaimed "Hear O'Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-rd is One.

Aside from being really wimpy, he was talking to G-D, another entity. He wasn't asking himself why have you forsaken me? That would be silly, wouldn't you agree?
.

the Trinity doctrine also asserts that God is one. Your point is moot.

It can assert anything, however, there are three distinct entities (gods).

God is powerful enough to limit that power enough to become Incarnate and reconcile humanity. God is powerful enough to overcome death through resurrection.

G-d can do anything. However, why would he want too?

Reconcile humanity? He doesn't have to reconcile anthing, he crated it.

The God of the Jews protected humanity by reconciling humanity.

What?

Huh. The whole God thing really makes no logical sense, so I don't see your point.

At least our G-D doesn't blatantly contradict himself.

Who added or subtracted? "Fulfilling" =/= "adding/subtracting."

What "his own law" did Jesus create?

Stating that he "fulfilled the law". He is substracting from the law.

Well... it's your Law, so that only makes sense. But Torah only applies to Jews. The great preponderance of Xy is Gentile, so Torah, in it's literal sense, does not apply to most of us.

Please remember the next time christians go into the five books of Moses, Prophets, and Scriptures and start recreating it to add jesus in.

Remember the Tanach must be only be based on a jewish point of view.

Where did Jesus "proclaim himself a god?" Book,chapter, verse, plz.

I thought you just wrote that he was god?

That he absolved everyone of their sins

That people must go through him to get to G-D

That he is the "son of god"

That he performed miracles, rather than G-d performing miracles

All these things were him making himself a divine entity which he wasn't. There is only one G-D.

 

[Awoon]

This may explain a little:

Grounds for Divorce in God's Law
Matthew 19 Commentary - Grounds for Divorce in God's Law - BibleGateway.com

If Jesus took that long to explain his position like your link, he would have died of old age.:run:

 

[roger1440]

Did Jesus explain he reason against divorce? It was simple for a husband to put away his wife in ancient times because women were property. Women weren't skilled in work, couldn't read or write. So for a husband to just divorce his wife for any reason would hurtful to her and society . She would most likely end up in prostitution. Jesus wasn't against divorce for proper reasons.

Someone once wrote, “The family is the cornerstone of society.” God’s law does preserve the family unit. There are times though a couple is better to split up rather than stay together. During Jesus’s time a very poplar Rabbi by the name Hillel believed a man could divorce his wife for something as trivial as burning his toast. If I understand Hillel correctly, sorry to say, he was wrong. Divorce comes with a price. There are a higher percentage of fatherless men in prison then there is in the general population. There is a higher percentage of teen pregnancies among fatherless girls then there is among girls from a intact family.