It May Be The Taliban Has This Right.

[firedragon]

You'll get no argument for that from me. I think one of the duties of leadership is to nurture the abilities of all their constituents regardless of gender, race, age, or anyone of many ways we can differentiate members of a group. Providing that platform is part of what I mean by nurturing. But even in what are often qualified as more enlightened societies, there still exist cultural barriers. Some more subtle barriers, but some not that subtle at all.

A good farmer does not throw out half his crops for some irrelevant reason and expect that he will be successful.

Absobloodylutely.

 

[atanu]

Thanks. Using the title, I was able to access a copy of the first paper. Thanks for both of the articles.

I remember something from a long time ago that talked about the change in behavior between young children as they age and progress through school. In early grades, there was no difference between learning in boys and girls and the girls may actually have had an early advantage, though I do not recall those details. However, reviewing the behavior and learning with progressing age, girls gradually stood out less, and this was largely associated with culture and not any difference in performance or native ability. We seem to teach our girls to dumb themselves down and for no good reason, to make matters worse.

I am an idealist Vedantist. But in matters of society, I go by the historical materialism of Marx. Power gets accumulated with those who keep the profits from surplus production. As per Marx, in ancient societies, women used to keep the surplus (whatever little there was). With the increasing productivity (especially with the advent of capitalism), however, the balance shifted towards men.

Religion and its scriptures are products of socio-economic conditions of particular times. Either the cited verses are taken out of context or they are products of bigoted minds.

...

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Absobloodylutely.

Of course, I noticed that I assume the farmer to be "he". A good example of how ingrained ideas are in even the well-intentioned.

 

[Meow Mix]

Of course, I noticed that I assume the farmer to be "he". A good example of how ingrained ideas are in even the well-intentioned.

It’s also just how the language works. We really needed a gender neutral pronoun used naturally from the start. Since we don’t, even I use “he” a lot.

When I think about it I try to do it 50%: sometimes for a generic pronoun he, sometimes for a generic pronoun she. Best compromise I’ve been able to think of, haha.

 

[Meow Mix]

Gentlemen (and lady if Snow’s still here, surprised this thread didn’t attract more ladies than it has), I’ve got to try to sleep for classes. If I come back anytime soon definitely yell at me.

<3 Goodnight

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am an idealist Vedantist. But in matters of society, I go by the historical materialism of Marx. Power gets accumulated with those who keep the profits from surplus production. As per Marx, in ancient societies, women used to keep the surplus (whatever little there was). With the increasing productivity (especially with the advent of capitalism), however, the balance shifted towards men.

When it comes to economics, I would reckon I am more conservative than you are, but it does not mean I do not recognize the flaws in capitalism. Personally, I think that shifts in the balance may extend back further than that to differentiation in roles in some hunter/gatherer societies. Those shifts were extended into successive cultures. I think there was some sexual selection as well, that was driving that in part.

Religion and its scriptures are products of socio-economic conditions of particular times. Either the cited verses are taken out of context or they are products of bigoted minds.

...

I agree. I think religion should not be held in some static context that no longer fits with our growing body of knowledge. In fact, I think that knowledge should improve our interpretation of scriptures and provide us with greater understanding. Unfortunately, many just decide to declare modern interpretation the work of evil and demand that all live as if it were the Bronze Age.

 

[firedragon]

Of course, I noticed that I assume the farmer to be "he". A good example of how ingrained ideas are in even the well-intentioned.

Not necessarily Dan. I used to refer to my old car as "she". And I can say I look after my partner better.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Gentlemen (and lady if Snow’s still here, surprised this thread didn’t attract more ladies than it has), I’ve got to try to sleep for classes. If I come back anytime soon definitely yell at me.

<3 Goodnight

I gotta get some sleep too.

 

[danieldemol]

Today, Afghanistan and women are the talk of the town, because it is top of mind. before 911 no one gave a damn about those women.

You can vouch for one thing now. These young ladies in the robotics team, if they are not shipped to another country, along with some other aspiring women in sports or/and other fields needing funds to excel will be shunned to the gutter. Why?? Because the first thing done to squeeze them is the end of funds. Foreign aid. This is a strategy to win certain things. Stopping funds is a way to help a friend win a war or to keep the war going, if there is one. So these acts will directly impact money for governance. The ladies won't get anything to do anything. So they will need to go to another country.

One can blame it all on the Taliban, today and in the future. But one must also consider what they have done.

All sending foreign aid to the Taliban would do is free up and / or directly contribute resources they need for arms to further oppress women and minorities in their country.

Rather it is better for those intelligent women that they did the sensible thing and fleed to surrounding countries were they could be funded without propping up the Taliban.

Not only do we not owe the Taliban a bent cent but it would be immoral to give it to them.

In my opinion.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The languages of both soft and hard science can fill only so much gappage, and then only as they are dependant upon greater realities. When one sits on a chair, there needs to be a functional confidence.

Thanks for your offer.

In essence, you are not prepared to look at any proper evidence? As to which showing that any differences between males and females is generally overwhelmed by the similarities. And you are fitting the profile of so many here - the good book is enough and anything that contradicts this is obviously wrong.

 

[JesusistheonlyWay99]

All sending foreign aid to the Taliban would do is free up and / or directly contribute resources they need for arms to further oppress women and minorities in their country.

Rather it is better for those intelligent women that they did the sensible thing and fleed to surrounding countries were they could be funded without propping up the Taliban.

Not only do we not owe the Taliban a bent cent but it would be immoral to give it to them.

In my opinion.

How is it what they do "opression"? Just because they dont share secular values? I mean, secularism can be pretty opressive for true believers too.

 

[danieldemol]

How is it what they do "opression"? Just because they dont share secular values? I mean, secularism can be pretty opressive for true believers too.

It is oppression because when you protect certain ideas instead of allowing the best ideas to outcompete the others on the free market of ideas ignorance results and humans begin to go backwards. I have no doubt that there are certain Christian ministers who would prefer an ignorant populace to make them easier to control for selfish financial reasons, but by objective measurements so far as I can tell, secular societies are typically more prosperous than theocratic religious societies.

It is oppression because people should be able to make informed choices on which religion they wish to follow, and by forbidding people education you are not allowing them to make informed choices.

It is oppression because the Taliban have comitted killings of civilian and noncombatant minorities;

Afghanistan: Taliban 'tortured and massacred' men from Hazara minority

It is oppresion because they check to see if men are attending friday prayers which is an infringement upon the religious freedom of the men.

Typically what people mean when they say secularism can be oppresive for believers they are either nutpicking extreme examples such as communist societies or whining about not being able to enforce the prayer of their particular denomination in public schools, or whining about not being able to teach things which go against scientific consensus in public schools.

In my opinion.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Few places in life are just. The good news is people are able to accommodate. God is able to give us His renewal to do so.

Regards.

I mean...it's your OP. But in good faith I'm asking your opinion and you seem to be prevaracating.

What's your opinion on women living under the Taliban? Should they have a choice as to whether they wish to live under Taliban rules?

 

[Clara Tea]

Within its society, the Muslim Taliban places a strong plan of management of women.

1.) Not to be formally educated.

This is in agreement with Biblical 1 Cor. 14:35, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."

2.) Not be in any leadership in Churches.

Agreement with 1 Cor.14:34, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Tim. 2:12, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, or to usurp authority over a man."

3.) Not display personal emhancements or jewelry.

Agreement with 1 Tim. 2:9, "That women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."

4.) Not presume to verbally contribute upon common issues.

Agreement with 1Tim. 2:11-12, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjugation ... To be in silence."

5.) Not overtly expressing trivia and loud talk.

Agreement with 1 Tim. 3:11, "Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober."

6.) The Men are to be in charge of the house and home.

Agreement with 1 Tim. 3:12, "Let the Deacons be ... ruling their children and their own houses well."

It easily appears that Christian Apostle Paul and Muslim Taliban Men, although a bit too hairy and with limited chatting ability, in fact both understood women well. The Muslim Men have just refined and standardized the presentation of their women by using burkas, and by giving them work at their home environs to keep busy with. This actually is quite similar to The Proverbs 31 Woman we all like to see.

Certainly, no abuse of women is in order in spite of what emotionally intuitive they endeavors might excessively pursue. Her husband's wisdom with gentle reminders and helpful direction will always place a better outcome for the family. Fighting and shrieking never accomplish kindness for anyone.

It is a sad reality that many religions tell women to shut up and make babies. They have no role in politics and must remain silent. They must "cleave unto their husbands."

Was it God's laws that kept women down all these years, or did mankind alter God's words of the bible?

Regardless, the biblical men could have used a good lesson in Women's Lib.

Even to this day, Christian women think that they have to forgive their men if they stray. Some preachers say that they are worth taking back because they eventually prefer their wife over their mistress. Yet, there are situations in which women have to forgive, forgive again, forgive again....ad nauseum. At some point one must realize that atonement is required.

Atonement is necessary for heaven (or it would be hell with unatoned criminals).

 

[Clara Tea]

It is oppression because when you protect certain ideas instead of allowing the best ideas to outcompete the others on the free market of ideas ignorance results and humans begin to go backwards. I have no doubt that there are certain Christian ministers who would prefer an ignorant populace to make them easier to control for selfish financial reasons, but by objective measurements so far as I can tell, secular societies are typically more prosperous than theocratic religious societies.

It is oppression because people should be able to make informed choices on which religion they wish to follow, and by forbidding people education you are not allowing them to make informed choices.

It is oppression because the Taliban have comitted killings of civilian and noncombatant minorities;

Afghanistan: Taliban 'tortured and massacred' men from Hazara minority

It is oppresion because they check to see if men are attending friday prayers which is an infringement upon the religious freedom of the men.

Typically what people mean when they say secularism can be oppresive for believers they are either nutpicking extreme examples such as communist societies or whining about not being able to enforce the prayer of their particular denomination in schools, or whining about not being able to teach things which go against scientific consensus in public schools.

In my opinion.

Many ancient religions want their members ignorant. The learned priests spoke Latin (required, then to understand the bible). Only they held the keys to understanding and communicating God's laws. King James I of England translated the bible into English, thereby cutting the power of the clergy (which gave him greater power by comparison). It seems like a power grab rather than a religious tenet.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Has anyone pointed out yet that a the time of scripture, women were considered possessions and not people? As were slaves and children too.

Today we must no longer have slaves and women and children are considered people.
But when scripture speaks of slaves/women/ children it is speaking of possessions. That’s as complicated as this topic needs to get.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Has anyone pointed out yet that a the time of scripture, women were considered possessions and not people? As were slaves and children too.

Today we must no longer have slaves and women and children are considered people.
But when scripture speaks of slaves/women/ children it is speaking of possessions. That’s as complicated as this topic needs to get.

Humbly
Hermit

Sorry, just to clarify:

In a nutshell, scripture tells us not to flaunt whatever wealth we may possess.

When it for instance tells that a woman must not wear X, Y and Z, it is seeing “woman” as a possession of Man and it is telling Man not to decorate and exhibit his possessions to the world.

Wisely, a reader of scripture will never focus on the word “woman” as meaning a person, because women were not seen as such at the time. They are now though!

And so in today’s terms, scripture is simply saying: People (women, men and everything in between); do not flaunt your wealth.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[stvdv]

Within its society, the Muslim Taliban places a strong plan of management of women.

1.) Not to be formally educated.

This is in agreement with Biblical 1 Cor. 14:35, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."

It May Be The Taliban Has This Right

In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (verses 33-35).

I can only see 1 way that "The Taliban Has This Right"
My Master told us that "in 'God's eyes' all are women (both men and women), only God is male". Hence the verse just means "when you are in the church shut up, both men/women", because the Church is a house of prayer, contemplation and meditation. Goal is to connect to God not to humans when in the Church. So, in that way it is disgraceful for human to speak (disgrace as in having respect for God; awe and wonder)

This means Taliban heard it right, but interpreted it wrong it seems to me

 

[Debater Slayer]

There was a picture floating around recently of an all-girls Afghan robotics team. If I were the type to pray, I pray they are safe.

Nine of them are reportedly safe in Qatar now:

Nine Afghan girl robotics team members safe in Qatar

 

[Koldo]

Within its society, the Muslim Taliban places a strong plan of management of women.

1.) Not to be formally educated.

This is in agreement with Biblical 1 Cor. 14:35, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."

2.) Not be in any leadership in Churches.

Agreement with 1 Cor.14:34, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Tim. 2:12, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, or to usurp authority over a man."

3.) Not display personal emhancements or jewelry.

Agreement with 1 Tim. 2:9, "That women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."

4.) Not presume to verbally contribute upon common issues.

Agreement with 1Tim. 2:11-12, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjugation ... To be in silence."

5.) Not overtly expressing trivia and loud talk.

Agreement with 1 Tim. 3:11, "Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober."

6.) The Men are to be in charge of the house and home.

Agreement with 1 Tim. 3:12, "Let the Deacons be ... ruling their children and their own houses well."

It easily appears that Christian Apostle Paul and Muslim Taliban Men, although a bit too hairy and with limited chatting ability, in fact both understood women well. The Muslim Men have just refined and standardized the presentation of their women by using burkas, and by giving them work at their home environs to keep busy with. This actually is quite similar to The Proverbs 31 Woman we all like to see.

Certainly, no abuse of women is in order in spite of what emotionally intuitive they endeavors might excessively pursue. Her husband's wisdom with gentle reminders and helpful direction will always place a better outcome for the family. Fighting and shrieking never accomplish kindness for anyone.

Poe's law!