• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Italian writer against women choosing the bear: hating men has become fashionable

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I totally agree with you.
Also because lesbians are clingy, nowadays.
Uh, what?
But there is too much doublestandardism, meaning that if a woman hugs a man or a woman without his/her consent, she is not called a sexual harasser.

1) She is sometimes. It depends on the situation.

2) As we've been talking about, men are notorious for sexual harassment and unwanted touching. It's a huge problem. Women can engage in unwanted touching too, but it's much less of a problem.

3) The difference in how the two sexes act in that way influences these interactions. Take the Ben Affleck example. I think a much, much higher percentage of men would be OK with unwanted touching like that from a female celebrity they find attractive. Because men don't have to put up with that kind of stuff much, and it's not a society wide issue that men having been trying to call attention to and resolve for centuries.

So, the same interaction from a woman toward a man isn't generally going to be taken the same way by the man, as if the sexes were reversed.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
It was to make you guys see the double standards applied: whenever a woman hugs someone without their consent, she is not called a harasser.
If a woman hugs a man without his consent, I and Skeptic and the others on our side would say the same thing about her as about a man doing it. The only difference is in how much each happens, not whether it's OK.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If a woman hugs a man without his consent, I and Skeptic and the others on our side would say the same thing about her as about a man doing it. The only difference is in how much each happens, not whether it's OK.
Very often.
Italian women are very extrovert with anyone. Men, women.
It's just that I don't like to be touched.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Very often.
Italian women are very extrovert with anyone. Men, women.
It's just that I don't like to be touched.
Some types of touching can vary based on culture, but as you say, if you don't like to be touched, it's wrong for others to touch you without your consent. Most people will take these things into account. If someone was from another culture that I knew was much more liberal with touching, even people they don't really know, I'd be a little more lenient. That doesn't make it right, but it makes it a little different.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Some types of touching can vary based on culture, but as you say, if you don't like to be touched, it's wrong for others to touch you without your consent. Most people will take these things into account. If someone was from another culture that I knew was much more liberal with touching, even people they don't really know, I'd be a little more lenient. That doesn't make it right, but it makes it a little different.
I give you an example.
In Italy people of the same age cheek-kiss when they meet new people for the first time.
I don't mind when a man does it,...especially if he's cute.
But if it's a woman, I find it unpleasant.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I give you an example.
In Italy people of the same age cheek-kiss when they meet new people for the first time.
I don't mind when a man does it,...especially if he's cute.
But if it's a woman, I find it unpleasant.
That's an interesting example. In a society where cheek-kissing is the common form of greeting, I don't think anyone would consider it sexual harassment unless it's made clear that the person doesn't want to do it and the other does it anyway. But if you don't like it, it's fine to tell others.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
So, you're trying to "win" by playing semantics? It's a phenomenon that affects millions of women. The vast majority of women have loads of these experiences over the course of their lives. In at least most cases, it'll come up almost daily.

But of course all of that is a distraction. You're not interested in listening and discussing it. You're just trying to "win".
Oh stop with this “winning crap”. It’s not about winning, it’s about the truth, and the truth is, the vast majority of women in the US are not endangered, harassed, or offended by a man on a daily basis. To suggest it is unusual for a typical American woman to have an entire day free of danger, or harassment from a man is just plain absurd.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
The question we're talking about, and the women in this thread. This is also where I told you to talk to the women in your life, as they'll confirm it unless they're the extremely biased type like you and Estro here.
In other words, you have no evidence; you're just making absurd, empty claims.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
On a regular basis, yes. It starts when we're about 14 years old (and often much younger) and just keeps going. I'm 44 years old now now and it still goes on.
Different men. Everywhere. The grocery store. The bus stop. Work. School. You name it.


This isn't about hating men or fearing them so much we can't go outside. Or moving to an island alone (real practical, by the way :rolleyes:). It's about being wary of strange men we encounter, especially in isolated places, based upon our life experience of strange men doing creepy and unwanted things to us.

Some random examples ...

When I was about 8 years old I was about to run across the street to my best friend's house when I guy pulled up next to me in a car and asked me how I was. I froze, and started panicking, because I froze and couldn't move. The guy started leaning across the passenger seat to open the door, and my friend yelled at me to RUN! So I did. Years later I think about how I almost got kidnapped and probably raped and murdered by some strange guy in an old car, right on front of my own house.

When I was in my twenties, I used to go out to bars with my boyfriend and my friends, like a lot of 20 year-olds do. I cannot tell you the number of times a random dude somewhere in the crowd has grabbed some part of my body, some even trying to physically force me to dance with them, thinking that is a perfectly normal way to interact with women they've never met before, AND a woman who is obviously there with her boyfriend, to boot.

My boyfriend and I attended one of those outdoor concert things, where all the bands play outside at various stages and there are huge crowds of people everywhere. We were trying to make our way out of the crowd to find the washrooms, when I got slightly separated from my boyfriend and was struggling to get back to him. Some random guy just grabbed me and pulled me against his body and wouldn't let go. My boyfriend had to literally pry me from this guy's arms. Oh, and on the way home on the GO train, it was so crowded that we all had to just stand up and hold onto something. There was a guy standing directly behind me who was clearly and obviously rubbing his genital area all over the back of me (and grossly, I could feel that he was definitely enjoying it) and there was absolutely nothing I could do. I couldn't just move away - it was far too crowded. My boyfriend said something to him but the guy pretended like he couldn't hear him. Nobody else in the crowd offered any help or anything.

Three years ago I was working in an office and there was an older man there that was really touchy feely and wanted to hug me all the time. I just thought, well, he's European and they do stuff like that so no big deal, right? Then his hugs start getting longer, and then he starts trying to kiss me on the mouth and holding onto the hug so I can't get out of it. I tell him that's enough, no more hugging, it makes me uncomfortable. I try staying away from him whenever I see him so he won't hug me. Not the easiest thing since I was supposed to be there to cater to the agents work needs, and he was one of those agents. He continues trying anyway, despite my protestations. So I decide to tell my boss what is going on. I tell him this guy won't stop trying to hug and kiss me and it's making me uncomfortable, please say something to him to let him know it's not okay. Guess what my boss said to me. ... He said, "Can I get some too?"

When I was about 15 years old, my boyfriend's father used to try to corner me when alone and grab various parts of my body as though they belonged to him. He also used to film all of us girls when we were swimming in our bathing suits. He'd also try to "tickle" all of us all the time. He'd have his friends over and they'd all make comments about my body that I guess I was supposed to find complimentary but I just thought were creepy and gross. When I told my boyfriend about what his father was doing to me and begged him not to leave me alone with his father ever again, guess what he said to me. He said I was making too much out of it and this was just normal "man" behaviour.

If this is what men are willing to do in public, imagine what they're willing to do in more isolated places.


One time when I was about 15 years old, I was staying at my older cousin's apartment in Toronto. He had some friends over with loud music playing, but I was tired so I went to bed, in his room, by myself. My female cousin was supposed to join me later on, she wanted to stay up a little longer. I woke up in the night to some guy I'd sort-of met earlier in the night, coming into the room and climbing into the bed next to me. I'm not going to go into detail on the rest, but needless to say, I had a difficult time getting out of there and I had to take some drastic measures.

When I was 13 years old, I was raped by my friend's brother (whom I'd never even met before) while I was at her house, waiting for her to return from dance class.



Chalk those up to "some guy being irritating" if you want. I don't really care at this point.
I could go on and on and on and on ...

I'm a woman, so I can't be mansplaining. But thanks for trying to mansplain that too.

This is my last post to you. I'm going to let @Magic Man speak for me now. He gets it.
So you're telling me that it is rare for you to go an entire 24 hr period without being endangered, or somehow harassed by a man?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Oh stop with this “winning crap”. It’s not about winning, it’s about the truth, and the truth is, the vast majority of women in the US are not endangered, harassed, or offended by a man on a daily basis. To suggest it is unusual for a typical American woman to have an entire day free of danger, or harassment from a man is just plain absurd.
Considering that my female friends complain that picking up nice men has been so difficult, it's funny that some people are portraying all men as horny wolves ready to assault any random woman they meet.

Whenever they go out on Saturday night, my friends wear miniskirt, fishnet stockings and crop top.
If they wore some sloppy T-shirt and sweatpants, no person of male gender would even look at them.
They would ignore them as they ignore a trash bin.
 
Last edited:

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Oh stop with this “winning crap”. It’s not about winning, it’s about the truth, and the truth is, the vast majority of women in the US are not endangered, harassed, or offended by a man on a daily basis. To suggest it is unusual for a typical American woman to have an entire day free of danger, or harassment from a man is just plain absurd.

I'll stop with the "winning crap", when you stop denying reality. The truth is the vast majority of women get harassed almost daily. I realize you're never going to allow yourself to see that, but it's still the reality of the situation.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Considering that my female friends complain that picking up nice men has been so difficult, it's funny that some people are portraying all men as horny wolves ready to assault any random woman they meet.
Considering that no one is portraying "all men" as horny wolves ready to assault any random woman they meet, one wonders why you'd trot out this ridiculous strawman.
Whenever they go out on Saturday night, my friends wear miniskirt, fishnet stockings and crop top.
If they wore some sloppy T-shirt and sweatpants, no person of male gender would even look at them.
They would ignore them as they ignore a trash bin.
Nope. It doesn't always matter how you look. That's why it happens to the vast majority of women. The idea that you only get harassed if you look good and are dressed a certain way is part of the misogynistic narrative that helps perpetuate the problem.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Considering that no one is portraying "all men" as horny wolves ready to assault any random woman they meet, one wonders why you'd trot out this ridiculous strawman.
No one?
Are you kidding me?
Most women choosing a wild animal over a person.
Were they serious?
Bears are the most unpredictable predators in the wood... come on.

Nope. It doesn't always matter how you look. That's why it happens to the vast majority of women. The idea that you only get harassed if you look good and are dressed a certain way is part of the misogynistic narrative that helps perpetuate the problem.
Don't change the topic please.
I asked: why do you think my female friends wear crop tops and miniskirt on Saturday night, at the nightclub?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
No one?
Are you kidding me?
There may be someone somewhere, but there's no one on this thread, and I haven't come across anyone outside of this.
Most women choosing a wild animal over a person.
Were they serious?
Bears are the most unpredictable predators in the wood... come on.
Some of them were serious, some weren't. This is why the important part of this is to understand the point of it. It's not a full statistical analysis and assessment. It's meant to point out how many women wouldn't just automatically choose the man, as a lot of people would expect.

But none of this is anyone portraying "all men" as horny wolves ready to assault any random woman they meet.
Don't change the topic please.
You brought this up. I just responded to what you said.
I asked: why do you think my female friends wear crop tops and miniskirt on Saturday night, at the nightclub?
You didn't ask anything. You brought up the fact that you and your friends go out dressed a certain way. You then said women would be ignored if they didn't dress up.

People dress up when they go out in order to look good. Not dressing up does not protect women from being harassed, though.
 
Top