Its not euthanasia, its suicide.

[The Sum of Awe]

That's just a slippery slope argument. Those that want to will do it regardless, as you've stated. So why not give them access in a humane way?

Those that want help should also have access to that as well, it's a win-win as I see it.

It becomes too accessible, more will do it. Keeping dying difficult and repulsive like it should be (death should not be taken lightly, a fear of death is healthy), that will show people that suicidal ideation can be survived.

So if I wanted to end my life you think I shouldn't be allowed to? Am I going to be on suicide watch for a decade?

Yes

 

[The Hammer]

It becomes too accessible, more will do it. Keeping dying difficult and repulsive like it should be (death should not be taken lightly, a fear of death is healthy), that will show people that suicidal ideation can be survived.

Of course it CAN be survived. The point is, it's not our place to force people to live. It's why DNR's are a thing that anyone can sign up for. Of course a fear of death is healthy. Trust the person killing themselves typically isn't afraid of death at that point, take it from a person who has lived with suicidal ideation for 15 years.

Yes

That's sad that you really think you can just control people like that. I think that's cruel and inhumane.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes

Just to state the obvious - that is in no way realistic. And of course a person can end their life in just a few seconds.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Of course it CAN be survived. The point is, it's not our place to force people to live. It's why DNR's are a thing that anyone can sign up for. Of course a fear of death is healthy. Trust the person killing themselves typically isn't afraid of death at that point, take it from a person who has lived with suicidal ideation for 15 years.

I’m sure there are a lot of times when a suicidal person doesn’t even truly understand death, and that’s not the same as not fearing it. People like that would easily slip through the cracks if euthanasia for mental illness becomes commonplace.

And for suicidal people that do understand death, and still want it, there is hope, it’s proven time and time again by suicide survivors who’ve later down the line are grateful they weren’t successful. Allowing euthanasia to become commonplace would take that semblance of hope away. Once again I say, depression and trauma becomes a death sentence, suicidal ideation becomes untreatable.

With all of these negatives, what are the true benefits? And let’s be honest, do they outweigh the cons? The only benefit I see is that someone who feels miserable at the moment has a 100% guarantee their method of outing will be successful, and that they’ll feel comfortable in the process. To me, that doesn’t outweigh the cons.

That's sad that you really think you can just control people like that. I think that's cruel and inhumane.

When people let emotions dictate their actions and wind up hurting themselves, inevitably showing others with the same irrational thoughts that it’s okay to do that, there must be limits.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Just to state the obvious - that is in no way realistic. And of course a person can end their life in just a few seconds.

Then they will. Why do we need euthanasia?

 

[The Hammer]

I’m sure there are a lot of times when a suicidal person doesn’t even truly understand death, and that’s not the same as not fearing it. People like that would easily slip through the cracks if euthanasia for mental illness becomes commonplace.

And for suicidal people that do understand death, and still want it, there is hope, it’s proven time and time again by suicide survivors who’ve later down the line are grateful they weren’t successful. Allowing euthanasia to become commonplace would take that semblance of hope away. Once again I say, depression and trauma becomes a death sentence, suicidal ideation becomes untreatable.

With all of these negatives, what are the true benefits? And let’s be honest, do they outweigh the cons? The only benefit I see is that someone who feels miserable at the moment has a 100% guarantee their method of outing will be successful, and that they’ll feel comfortable in the process. To me, that doesn’t outweigh the cons.

When people let emotions dictate their actions and wind up hurting themselves, inevitably showing others with the same irrational thoughts that it’s okay to do that, there must be limits.

I'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: Nm no I won't.

 

[The Hammer]

I’m sure there are a lot of times when a suicidal person doesn’t even truly understand death, and that’s not the same as not fearing it. People like that would easily slip through the cracks if euthanasia for mental illness becomes commonplace.

No they wouldn't because you put in place drs / therapists as a barrier. Who consult with the person and help them make that decision or not to ensure they've thought it through.

And for suicidal people that do understand death, and still want it, there is hope, it’s proven time and time again by suicide survivors who’ve later down the line are grateful they weren’t successful. Allowing euthanasia to become commonplace would take that semblance of hope away.

I don't think it takes away hope. And you can't really show that's the case.

Once again I say, depression and trauma becomes a death sentence, suicidal ideation becomes untreatable.

Slippery slope argument with no basis.

With all of these negatives, what are the true benefits? And let’s be honest, do they outweigh the cons? The only benefit I see is that someone who feels miserable at the moment has a 100% guarantee their method of outing will be successful, and that they’ll feel comfortable in the process. To me, that doesn’t outweigh the cons.

Your cons still haven't been proven. The benefits though are there, humane treatment of others by allowing them to actually work through this process with Drs and therapists and then either accept or reject euthanasia as an option to be pursued.

When people let emotions dictate their actions and wind up hurting themselves, inevitably showing others with the same irrational thoughts that it’s okay to do that, there must be limits.

It's not always an emotional decision. And I don't condone suicide, but I think the medical option should be available.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Then they will. Why do we need euthanasia?

Because often people fail and damage themselves by trying the other.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

No they wouldn't because you put in place drs / therapists as a barrier. Who consult with the person and help them make that decision or not to ensure they've thought it through.

It’s these doctors that determined a perfectly healthy woman, who is only 28, and has a functioning lifestyle, to be fit for suicide. It doesn’t seem like very secure boundaries to me.

I don't think it takes away hope. And you can't really show that's the case.

Slippery slope argument with no basis.

Your cons still haven't been proven. The benefits though are there, humane treatment of others by allowing them to actually work through this process with Drs and therapists and then either accept or reject euthanasia as an option to be pursued.

And it would never be proven, because anyone who went through with euthanasia and regretted as they slipped away, would not stick around to tell the story. I feel like suicide survivors turning their lives around are credible evidence for both of my points, on the other hand. That there is hope being stripped away and that people who are wrong about wanting suicide could slip through the cracks.

There are no dictations we could have in place that could prevent suicide ideation from becoming a death sentence. Pulling oneself out of suicidal ideation requires a lot of effort, but what motivates someone to pull themselves out of wanting to end their life? Certainly not solely the desire to keep living, life is painful to them. I would argue that suicide not being a viable option is part of what keeps them fighting. Not only them, but it keeps therapists from dipping into “you keep slipping back, maybe I’ll allow it if you do want to kill yourself”

It's not always an emotional decision. And I don't condone suicide, but I think the medical option should be available.

The desire to end psychological pain is an emotional decision, especially when someone is functioning in life.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Because often people fail and damage themselves by trying the other.

I acknowledged that. I don’t think it outweighs the cons of letting this become commonplace.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I acknowledged that. I don’t think it outweighs the cons of letting this become commonplace.

When things change it often seems as as we are getting into a slippery slope but perhaps we are just getting a more balanced position, given that often, as in the case of non-binary issues, many were disadvantaged by the positions they were in. A lot better now for many I would think - in those countries progressive enough to accept change.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

When things change it often seems as as we are getting into a slippery slope but perhaps we are just getting a more balanced position, given that often, as in the case of non-binary issues, many were disadvantaged by the positions they were in. A lot better now for many I would think - in those countries progressive enough to accept change.

Cows appear calm before the slaughterhouse.

 

[EconGuy]

However I don't condone so called 'health' professionals going on about how she is completely hopeless and might as well off herself. Those people shouldnt be licensed.

It's pretty dangerous, IMO, when people don't trust the people that have spent 6-10 years earning their educations in these fields and potentially decades of experience dealing with actual people, be it medical doctors or those in behavioral sciences.

Educating yourself, at a PhD level or higher on understanding of human behavior is hard and it's tempting to believe that your intuition has more weight than a person who has dedicated their lives to the understanding on a topic.

That's not to say that I think we should trust blindly, but rather look for others who have the background and experience and creds who have good reasons for their disagreement based on facts and evidence and then evaluating all the arguments and choosing the one that provides the best explanation in your opinion. Then come here and share the contrary opinion/s of other experts and invite people to evaluate based on the merits of each argument, but supporting the stripping of licenses of people who are experts in their field/s because your intuition tells you you're right and their wrong, that's the crux of hubris. Even if you're right, and I admit I don't know, because I've not looked into this question, but even if you are right, it's only by accident, sort of like blind squirrels and nuts...

That's half the problem in the US. People believe that they know best, for example, how to teach their children rather than people who have gone to college for 6 or more years and earned masters degrees and PhD's and spent the time to learn and understand.

Again, to be 100% clear. People aren't right because they go to college and earn degrees in a field, what I'm saying is that the average person, using their intuition, is in no place to declare they are wrong or unqualified.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, she's still alive and the euthanasia is scheduled for May.

 

[McBell]

It’s these doctors that determined a perfectly healthy woman, who is only 28, and has a functioning lifestyle, to be fit for suicide. It doesn’t seem like very secure boundaries to me.

A few posts for you to peruse that I would rather not have to retype...

what is bizarre:

1. you have not even talked to her, let alone met her.
2. You have no idea how many, if any, suicide attempts she has had
3. You have not seen a singe line of her medical records.
4. You are not a doctor
5. You do not know anything about The Dutch Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act

Yet you think you know better than all the people who actually know her, have access to her medical records, and know and understand The Dutch Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act...

Where did you get your medical degree?
When did you talk with her?
When did you review her medical records?

Yes.
She has followed all the rules and regulations, jumped through all the red tape.
Even got approval from the council.

Ah.
Neverminded then.
You are merely trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else throats.

I am not big on dealing with zealots.

Have a nice day.

I tend to take the opinion of those who have actually talked to her, examed her, looked over her medical records, etc. over the opinion of someone who is basing their opinion on a half page news report...


Apparently the Dutch do not adhere to your stringent requirements for euthanasia...

 

[We Never Know]

A few things come to mind...
1. She suffers from mental illnesses
2. Is she of sound mind to make such decisions
3. If she is of sound mind, then its her choice

 

[The Sum of Awe]

A few posts for you to peruse that I would rather not have to retype...

You’re right that I don’t know her, but from the article it appears she has her life together to some functional degree. If someone like this is allowed to kill themselves, the line will only get thinner and thinner.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's pretty dangerous, IMO, when people don't trust the people that have spent 6-10 years earning their educations in these fields and potentially decades of experience dealing with actual people, be it medical doctors or those in behavioral sciences.

Educating yourself, at a PhD level or higher on understanding of human behavior is hard and it's tempting to believe that your intuition has more weight than a person who has dedicated their lives to the understanding on a topic.

That's not to say that I think we should trust blindly, but rather look for others who have the background and experience and creds who have good reasons for their disagreement based on facts and evidence and then evaluating all the arguments and choosing the one that provides the best explanation in your opinion. Then come here and share the contrary opinion/s of other experts and invite people to evaluate based on the merits of each argument, but supporting the stripping of licenses of people who are experts in their field/s because your intuition tells you you're right and their wrong, that's the crux of hubris. Even if you're right, and I admit I don't know, because I've not looked into this question, but even if you are right, it's only by accident, sort of like blind squirrels and nuts...

That's half the problem in the US. People believe that they know best, for example, how to teach their children rather than people who have gone to college for 6 or more years and earned masters degrees and PhD's and spent the time to learn and understand.

Again, to be 100% clear. People aren't right because they go to college and earn degrees in a field, what I'm saying is that the average person, using their intuition, is in no place to declare they are wrong or unqualified.

That's fair , but remember what's deemed academically right today can be also deemed wrong tomorrow.

 

[Kathryn]

I think it's a very slippery slope because of the mental health issues. She has many - depression, autism, and borderline personality disorder. She ain't right in the head, that's for sure, so how can she be of sound mind to make such a profound decision?

 

[Twilight Hue]

A few things come to mind...
1. She suffers from mental illnesses
2. Is she of sound mind to make such decisions
3. If she is of sound mind, then its her choice

That's why doctors should stay out of this type of decision making and not telling her she's irrevocably beyond all help and healing.