Its not euthanasia, its suicide.

[McBell]

Some people simply cannot think for themselves what is good or bad without appealing to a professional in their mind to make a decision for them.

Some people think that their personal experience is the be all end all of it and go about making bold empty claims based upon their personal experience regardless of the fact that they know absolutely nothing about the case at hand.

 

[Rival]

Not really, but do go on....


Yes.
She has followed all the rules and regulations, jumped through all the red tape.
Even got approval from the council.


And?


Ah.
Neverminded then.
You are merely trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else throats.

I am not big on dealing with zealots.

Have a nice day.

She could have babies and live a nice, fulfilling life with her boyfriend, cats, kids and adventures.

Nah, she can just kill herself instead because she thinks life oughtn't include suffering she could learn to deal with.

The fact that folks support this worries me.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Some people think that their personal experience is the be all end all of it and go about making bold empty claims based upon their personal experience regardless of the fact that they know absolutely nothing about the case at hand.

I tried to off myself twice in this life and it's documented. I'm more an authority on depression than you think.

Maybe take your crystal ball of conclusions and fortune telling elsewhere.

 

[McBell]

I tried to off myself twice in this life and it's documented. I'm more an authority on depression than you think.

Maybe take your crystal ball of conclusions and fortune telling elsewhere.

I am not the one pretending to be an expert on someone else's life/medical based solely on my own experiences.
That would be you.

So how about you clean your own hands of the crystal ball and fortune telling before you whine about others pointing out the fact you do not know a damn thing about her, her life, or medical situation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I am not the one pretending to be an expert on someone else's life/medical based solely on my own experiences.
That would be you.

So how about you clean your own hands of the crystal ball and fortune telling before you whine about others pointing out the fact you do not know a damn thing about her, her life, or medical situation.

Maybe while in the process, one would can the fortune telling that this woman is beyond all hope just because a single doctor says so.

 

[McBell]

Maybe while in the process, one would can the fortune telling that this woman is beyond all hope just because a doctor says so.

I have never made that claim.
In fact, I have not seen a single post making that claim.
Except for the one I quoted above.

And you apparently still have not perused the law in question, that I have linked to multiple times.

The one that states at least two doctors have to agree and then all the reports, notes, records, etc are to be submitted to a council for review...

 

[Twilight Hue]

She could have babies and live a nice, fulfilling life with her boyfriend, cats, kids and adventures.

Nah, she can just kill herself instead because she thinks life oughtn't include suffering she could learn to deal with.

The fact that folks support this worries me.

It not only worries people like you and me, it should be outright alarming ļthat a Doctor , any doctor for that matter, who took an oath of causing no harm, would ever tell a chronically depressed woman who is not terminal in any way, coupled with the fact she is still considerably young, that there is no hope left whatsoever for her for the rest of her life ever is incredibly unconscionable, likely further cementing her willingness and conviction to die by suicide and cutting off any possible future that may be around the corner.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but where in the list of terminally ill conditions is depression listed as being hopelessly terminal with death unquestionably imminent and completely unavoidable.

I'd be interested in reading that in any medical journals available to the public where her diagnosis fits that criteria.

 

[Debater Slayer]

She could have babies and live a nice, fulfilling life with her boyfriend, cats, kids and adventures.

Nah, she can just kill herself instead because she thinks life oughtn't include suffering she could learn to deal with.

While I have strong concerns about the story if it is true as reported per the article in the OP, I don't think the above is an accurate description of what typically drives people to suicide or what the underlying thought processes are like.

It's often unrelated to "[thinking] that life oughtn't include suffering [one] could learn to deal with." Suicidal ideation is typically far more complicated and multilayered than that, and many people who accept that suffering is a fact of life still get overwhelmed due to severe mental illness and want to end the pain they're experiencing.

 

[Rival]

While I have strong concerns about the story if it is true as reported per the article in the OP, I don't think the above is an accurate description of what typically drives people to suicide or what the underlying thought processes are like.

It's often unrelated to "[thinking] that life oughtn't include suffering [one] could learn to deal with." Suicidal ideation is typically far more complicated and multilayered than that, and many people who accept that suffering is a fact of life still get overwhelmed due to severe mental illness and want to end the pain they're experiencing.

I recognise that as a formerly suicidal person, but also as such a person who changed that circumstance I believe it is possible for others. She may find hope in the least likely of places. For her to have even considered this for years as I and others have is understandable, but there is always hope. Signing off a death warrant for mental illness strikes me as positively Soviet.

 

[Vinayaka]

So if one of my relatives is severely depressed, do I suggest suicide?

If I can't suggest it, the person oughtn't really be thinking it either.

Not what I said. Carry on.

 

[Rival]

Not what I said. Carry on.

Elaborate then.

But you seemed to suggest suffering as a reason to allow someone to die rather than be miserable.

I see many issues with that.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have never made that claim.
In fact, I have not seen a single post making that claim.
Except for the one I quoted above.

And you apparently still have not perused the law in question, that I have linked to multiple times.

The one that states at least two doctors have to agree and then all the reports, notes, records, etc are to be submitted to a council for review...

Since your so admitted on professional opinions , here's something on the matter regarding deliberative suicide.

When Is Depression a Terminal Illness? Deliberative Suicide in Chronic Mental Illness

In some cases, hope might not have substantial ethical or therapeutic value.

journalofethics.ama-assn.org

You will find the jury is still out on this matter. There are pro and con arguments here, but I will say this much, if she wants to off herself, she has the right to do so.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a massively tragic failure just not of herself , but a failure of professional medicine as well , which some professionals ought to know better involving non terminally ill people.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The one that states at least two doctors have to agree and then all the reports, notes, records, etc are to be submitted to a council for review...

My main concern about the story as reported is that it mentions depression and nothing else, and there is currently no way a doctor could possibly determine that someone's depression will never decrease or resolve. There is no medical evidence that we have such insight into depression, nor such prognostic ability concerning its long-term status.

With current medical knowledge, even a thousand doctors couldn't confirm that someone's depression is absolutely, permanently untreatable. My own issue persisted for nine years, and I saw 10 doctors in that time. Only two of them managed to help me see improvement, and it was only during the ninth year of treatment, with the 10th doctor, that the issue truly started subsiding.

Two of the doctors told me that my condition would probably never resolve and that I would be on medications for life, and it turned out that they had both misdiagnosed me. The fact is that mental health care is currently far weaker in diagnostic ability than, say, cardiology or pediatrics, mainly due to the insufficient knowledge about the brain and its specific connection to mental illness. I was tempted to give up at one point, too, and I can only wonder what could have happened if my doctors had told me not to try anymore or that seeking help would have been utterly pointless.

I can't support the recommendation of "euthanasia" as outlined in the linked article—at least not under the current situation of mental health care and the vast gaps in knowledge about the brain and mental illness. To do so would be to support the killing of someone who, going by the article, is experiencing something that sounds extremely similar to what I personally experienced for many years.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I recognise that as a formerly suicidal person, but also as such a person who changed that circumstance I believe it is possible for others. She may find hope in the least likely of places. For her to have even considered this for years as I and others have is understandable, but there is always hope. Signing off a death warrant for mental illness strikes me as positively Soviet.

I think it's impossible to determine that the depression will never get better, which is the main reason for my opposition to the "euthanasia" as detailed in the article. I'm definitely not willing to assume exactly what the woman is thinking or what is underpinning her suicidal thoughts, though. I only hope that people in similar situations experience improvement and that their suffering subsides.

 

[Yerda]

Allowing your patient to kill themselves doesn't minimize suffering, but creates even more.

I don't agree that this is given.

We can debate the merits of whether this person ending their life will reduce overall suffering, but I expect no-one knows better than the person in question. The article mentions that the patient has little to no family, and her boyfriend has obviously been party to the discussion, so I'm thinking she know better than us as to whether this step can minimise suffering here.

My preference is that she not die at all, as she doesn't need to! Suicide is suicide, and I'm not going to play the game of making some methods seem "nicer" or more romantic than others. That's really quite gross.

Making it illegal to end your life is pretty gross. And some options are just "nicer". Taking a drink or an injection and passing away while sleeping in a safe environment is better than hanging yourself out of desperation.

I understand you have moral qualms here, but I don't understand this attitude that suicide is always the wrong choice.

Because any doctor that tells a depressed patient there's nothing more that can be done (i.e. there's no hope and you'll never recover) is simply lying and giving up on their patient. With mental illness, there's always hope for recovery - as long as you still live! Anyone who has spent much time interacting with the mental healthcare system can tell you that that attitude is not rare. It's not rare with other kinds of healthcare, either.

Doctors and clinicians are not gods with infinite knowledge. They can also not be trained that well. I've had bad therapists and doctors, and a horrible time with psych meds. People also can be misdiagnosed and also not receive the proper treatment (BPD needs different treatment than just depression, and then she also has autism and that needs its own types of treatment, etc.). It can get complicated and it's hard for most people to navigate these things.

The medical ethicist quoted in the article spoke about how often they see mental health patients quickly given up on by their doctors. This isn't some secret. Borderline Personality Disorder alone is highly stigmatized, including by doctors, and often hard to treat. 10% of people with BPD kill themselves, which is extremely high. However, there's still forms of therapy that can help those with BPD, but many clinicians aren't trained in how to deal with it.

So, here's what I see as the central issue: the limited mental healthcare available in most places means that there is not enough support for people suffering with mental illness. You could be right and this person's lifelong mental illness might just vanish one day. Or they may life a full natural life in complete misery. The point is that we can make a solid case that without good treatment the chances of the first possibility are much slimmer.

I'm fairly acquainted with mental health care here in the UK. My sister has bipolar and BPD. Several of my friends have varying degrees of anxiety issues, depression or other mental health diagnoses. I'd absolutely prefer that people don't kill themselves, but I think if I was to be faced wih a life of cripplling mental health issues I'd at least want the option to end it when I like, and in comfortable and controlled settings. The alternative is horrifying.

Hopefully the impact of stories like these can help lend some focus to the situation right now with regards to people struggling. Maybe the doctors are failing here, maybe not, but our societies are ****ing us up and something has to change or we'll see plenty more suicides - legal or otherwise.

 

[Vinayaka]

Elaborate then.

But you seemed to suggest suffering as a reason to allow someone to die rather than be miserable.

I see many issues with that.

I said 'some people' would be relieved, not that I would be. My father-in-law had throat cancer, and he was in a ton of pain, actively wishing to get it over with. This was way before the time of legalized euthanasia in Canada. My MIL was relieved when he passed. Mom had Alzheimer's, we were all relieved (and sad) when she finally passed. Again, before the time of legalized euthanasia.

I have been depressed, but not like the cases being discussed here. But I don't feel I can judge that person. I've seen some long term depression as well. One younger person, a friend of my daughters, had copper poisoning, a painful condition where he could not digest copper, and it built up in his system. It was depressing to him. So much that he needed constant watching, as he was actively trying to end the pain by jumping out windows, swallowing excessive drugs, pulling out his IVs and such. No known cure for his condition AND it was going to last a long time. A counsellor suggested an alternative, several meetings with several doctors and relatives later, and he willingly put himself out of the pain.

I just don't see things like this in black/white terms. Unless I've walked in those shoes, I reserve judgement.

In Hinduism we have a method ... fasting to death, under medical supervision, with community approval. That's where I personally stand on it. And that's what I would do, which amounts to refusal of food in that circumstance. Edited to add: Prayopavesa - Wikipedia

I also think certain habits for some people are passive suicide ... smoking, drinking, drug addiction. It's complicated.

 

[Rival]

I said 'some people' would be relieved, not that I would be. My father-in-law had throat cancer, and he was in a ton of pain, actively wishing to get it over with. This was way before the time of legalized euthanasia in Canada. My MIL was relieved when he passed. Mom had Alzheimer's, we were all relieved (and sad) when she finally passed. Again, before the time of legalized euthanasia.

I have been depressed, but not like the cases being discussed here. But I don't feel I can judge that person. I've seen some long term depression as well. One younger person, a friend of my daughters, had copper poisoning, a painful condition where he could not digest copper, and it built up in his system. It was depressing to him. So much that he needed constant watching, as he was actively trying to end the pain by jumping out windows, swallowing excessive drugs, pulling out his IVs and such. No known cure for his condition AND it was going to last a long time. A counsellor suggested an alternative, several meetings with several doctors and relatives later, and he willingly put himself out of the pain.

I just don't see things like this in black/white terms. Unless I've walked in those shoes, I reserve judgement.

In Hinduism we have a method ... fasting to death, under medical supervision, with community approval. That's where I personally stand on it. And that's what I would do, which amounts to refusal of food in that circumstance.

I also think certain habits for some people are passive suicide ... smoking, drinking, drug addiction. It's complicated.

But again, while I am sympathetic, these cases are not at all the same as the OP.

These are terminal cases, and copper poisoning is still a physical illness that can be measured as such.

We simply cannot do this with mental illness.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I recognise that as a formerly suicidal person, but also as such a person who changed that circumstance I believe it is possible for others. She may find hope in the least likely of places. For her to have even considered this for years as I and others have is understandable, but there is always hope. Signing off a death warrant for mental illness strikes me as positively Soviet.

My suicide attempts actually gave me a bit of a slap in the face to where i essentially said, "Okay if I want to be dead, let's go see what happens if I had succeeded by self observation what I would of missed".

My answer eventually came in the form of my present religion and my wife whom I would have never encountered had I succeeded, and am presently grateful that I had learned those lessons of future possibilities even in the face of a possible dismal future that might still had happened as well.

I learned that depression is still a normal part of the human experience, and even today I'm depressed. The difference now is that I realize what it is, normalized my depression, and can accept and live with it it as an aspect of the human experience, and also noticed that depression itself isn't consistent as it comes and goes. Its natural as the morning and evening goes by , so I've been able to live with my condition and enjoy life for what it offers until it's finally time for nature itself to properly take me on its terms.

 

[Yerda]

We simply cannot do this with mental illness.

Is that the issue for you?

 

[Rival]

Is that the issue for you?

No, it's my issue with people comparing it to terminal illness, which is not what the OP is about.