It's said Jesus' sacrificed himself to save us...

[JoStories]

The reason Christians talk to non-Christians who will listen is: When a Christian talks about the scriptures to non-Christians, that is when God reads the heart of the non-Christian.
When people read the scriptures, and do not believe them, it is because God has blinded them to the truth. There is nothing anybody can say, or do that will un-blind them.

Can you prove that? What if God wants a person to follow a different spirituality? Or a different faith or do you believe that God only chooses chrisitians? What kind of God would that be to damn millions of people who believe in God, such as me, but choose to follow a faith that speaks to my soul? What of them?

 

[JoStories]

Lets keep it simple: All religions make claim their bible is taken from the scrolls. If that were true, all bibles would match word for word...the simple truth is they do not.
The scrolls were written by men from what God told them to write. If they just put it into their own words, they would not have asked as Daniel did, "What does this mean?"
I am a man. I could write a bible, and say anything I want. If I did that, and it did not match the scrolls, you would know it is not from God, but from man...it is the scrolls we need to look to, not the bible that was written by men for their own purpose. Simple. Satan is bad, but he is not stupid..."Write a book, and claim it is from God...and control these SIMPLE minded creatures. "

Why are these scrolls the only truth that God may have spoken, presuming that God did that, which I am skeptical about. And what of the two people who wrote A Course in Miracles, which is based on the Bible. Does that one count? What of the Vedas? Written thousands of years before the Christian Bible? What of the Qu'ran? Is that heretical? The problem with thinking that only the Christian bible is the one 'from God" is that it makes God into a monster who then damns too many people for merely following a different faith.

 

[JoStories]

Domenic, I had the same issue with Outhouse. Had to put Outhouse on my ignore list to get rid of the headache.

I happen to like outhouse. And I am a theist, which he respects. Is that what you all do? Any person with the temerity to challenge your view, you ignore. If so, what are you even doing here? Why not go to the Christians only forum since you are or at least seem, so frightened to even try to open your minds.

 

[sojourner]

sojourner, do you even think about what you say before you say it? Read that statement again......what on earth do you think "quickened by the Holy Spirit" actually means? We use that terminology in our ordinary speech do we?
You need to lose that ol' KJV....It's a lousy translation.

You need to check your mouth at the door before you open it and stuff a whole shoe store into it. Haven't used the KJ in ... forever. And yes, I do use the word "quicken" A. Lot. Nothing wrong with more classic language -- and stop trying to control the way I write.

So how are we to view scripture? By deciding for ourselves what scripture is actually "made alive" by God's spirit? Can we decide for ourselves what to believe and what not to believe in God's word?

That's why we have brains, is it not?

You think God has no control over what is in the Bible?

I don't think God gives much of a rat's a** what's "in the bible." I think God's more concerned with what's in our hearts.

The Bible is what God inspired......we don't get to chose.....you accept all or nothing.

The bible is what we created. The writers and editors did choose. The bible has never been an "all or nothing" venture.

I'll take Paul's word for the "inspiration" of scripture over yours

Again: there's a big difference between "inspiration" and "control/dictation."

You give the impression that your own words are somehow in the same category

My interpretation is as good as anyone else's -- including Paul.

You must obviously think you said it better?

Yup.

It was then that Jesus became "the Christ" (anointed one).

Not according to Paul...

They record his teachings, his dealings with people, his miracles, resistance from the Jewish religious leaders of the day, his arrest, his illegal trial and the torture he received before the Romans nailed his hands and feet to an execution stake.

They record stories about Jesus and his ministry -- not necessarily the historic details, themselves.

The rest of the Greek scriptures are what happened after that.

Except that the rest of the Greek texts (with the exception of Revelation) were written before the gospels, and so are closer to the actual events of Jesus' life.

It is basically one story with four men offering details not always provide by the others.

No, they are *basically* three different stories, each with a different theological agenda.

So I am at a loss to understand what "contrived bogus timeline" you had in mind.

The one that inevitably happens when you try to think of the four different gospels as, somehow, "basically one story."

 

[sojourner]

I happen to like outhouse. And I am a theist, which he respects. Is that what you all do? Any person with the temerity to challenge your view, you ignore. If so, what are you even doing here? Why not go to the Christians only forum since you are or at least seem, so frightened to even try to open your minds.

I don't think that would work for him, either.

 

[Domenic]

Indeed. What better way to reveal what is in a person's heart. (Matt 24:14)

Hebrews 4:12-13....."For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."



2 Corinthians 4:3-4..."And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (NSAB)

"The god of this world" is satan the devil.....it is he who blinds the minds of those who reject God's message.

It is true that God can permit a person's heart to remain hardened, but it is not God who blinds anyone.

2 Peter 3:9...."The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (NASB)

Thank you for the correction...Domenic

 

[JayJayDee]

Curious question for you....what consequences are you speaking of? Hell? Because while I respect your belief, I find the entire notion of hell to be something used to coerce people. And IMO, that is far from simple.

The Bible's hell is not Christendom's hell. The ancient Jews did not believe Sheol to be anything other than mankind's grave. There is no immortal soul in man to suffer anything after death. These beliefs are not from the Bible, they are adoptions from paganism.

Your faith, with respect, offers people two 'choices'. Either accept the dogma or be damned.

My faith doesn't offer people anything but the opportunity to get to know the Creator and to takes sides in a universal issue...that of whom we choose as our sovereign.
As the one who gave us life, he alone has the authority to set the terms of our existence. Yet as free willed beings, we have choices. Either prove to be the kind of people whom God would welcome as citizens in his kingdom...or not.
There is no " damned"....there is life or there is death....nothing else.

Not much of a choice, IMO.

What God is offering is better than any of us can imagine, and he invites people to serve him.....he does not demand it. As sovereign he makes the rules and enforces them. Like it or not. No one is truly free to do as they wish. We all answer to someone who has authority over us.

And not something that can be proven either.

I believe that the proof is right under our noses. God testifies to his existence through creation.

I do like some of the bible, but I don't believe any prophet was or has been 'divine'.

The Bible contains many gems of wisdom. We can all benefit from its practical advice.
I don't believe that the prophets were anything other than ordinary men asked to do extraordinary things. God empowered them to write down their experiences and prophesies and to stand firm in the face of opposition.

The only "divine" being was Jesus Christ, but I don't believe that he was anything more than what he claimed to be....the son of God.

 

[sojourner]

My faith doesn't offer people anything but the opportunity to get to know the Creator and to takes sides in a universal issue...that of whom we choose as our sovereign.

Yes, that's a pretty thought and all, but your faith will only allow people to get to know the Creator as you envision the Creator. Your faith will not celebrate the wondrous variety and differences of the human family and how they choose to envision the Creator. Your faith splits the universe into a dualism, where one must choose a "side," and the correct "side" (yours) must be chosen.

Either prove to be the kind of people whom God would welcome as citizens in his kingdom...or not.

But the bible tells us that God loves and will save every person.

he invites people to serve him.....he does not demand it.

But you do demand that God be served in a certain guise and in a certain way.

As sovereign he makes the rules and enforces them.

Methinks it's you who are making rules and trying to enforce them. To wit:

Like it or not. No one is truly free to do as they wish.

See?

What God is offering is better than any of us can imagine, and he invites people to serve him

<blank-eyed stare; monotone voices> "Join us... be one of us..."

You will now say that it's not you -- that it's the bible that says these things -- that you're only reading and obeying what the bible tells you. Problem is, the bible isn't the only holy book, and yours is one of a myriad possible interpretations of it. Your statements here are dishonest -- not because they're untrue, and not because you don't fervently believe in what you're saying; I'm sure they are your truth, and I'm sure you do believe what you're saying -- but because you're insisting that your vision is the only real vision, and your faith is the only real faith. It's dishonest because it disrespects and dismisses the real faith-experiences of people who are different from you.

 

[viole]

Quatermass, you asked, "So where the hell is the sacrifice?"

That is a very good question. I used to ask the same question. The only reply I would get from religious leaders was..."Jesus died for our sins." After that I used to ask the question, "If Jesus died for our sins, why do we have to keep asking God to forgive us for our sins?" It was like talking to used car salesmen. So I started to reason it on my own...it took me some time...about ten years. Here is what I came away with:

Adam was a perfect man when he sinned. The sacrifice had to also be perfect. Jesus was perfect, without sin. Fair exchange...but than like you asked, "Three days? That's all? Just three day...that's not a sacrifice." I looked at it the same as you. So I thought on the matter. There had to be more to the story. God never does something without a reason...what was his reason for Jesus being dead for only three days? Jesus was a perfect man. if he was not killed, he would not have aged, or died. If he had children, they would also have been perfect...Jesus had within him a perfect unborn human race. Here is a medical fact I learned. "It takes up to three days for a mans seed to die, after the man dies. Jesus was dead for 2.5 days. The Jews count a half day as a full day."
When Jesus died, a perfect unborn human race was given as a sacrifice for this one.
I have often wondered what they would have been like...that unborn race. Over the years I sometimes feel shame they died for me. I see faces of unborn children laughing, playing...children who have done no wrong, but will never be born. Jesus died for one sin, to remove the sin handed down from Adam and Eve...The payment was those billions of unborn people. I hope someday we prove we were worth it.

The question, I believe, is not why we still ask forgiveness from our sins, but whether we can call Jesus death a "sacrifice".

I really do not see how it can be called such. In Mark,He informs the disciples that He will die and rise on the third day. And, according to the tales in the Gospel, that is what happened. So, He knew He was not risking a lot. Maybe a bit of wipping and a weekend without football.

Really, if you knew you are God and will resurrect after the weekend to become the eternal master of the Universe, wouldn't you do it for basically everything? I would happily die under these condition if that payed my mortgage, not to speak of humans sins, eternal life or whatever.

Ciao

- viole

 

[outhouse]

"The god of this world" is satan the devil.....it is he who blinds the minds of those who reject God's message.

How can that ne when you don't even know what that message is???????????????

Your own personal version Is not what is taught in major universities. Your blind here without a real education.


And I have seen you reject factual evidence and argue it tooth and nail.

 

[outhouse]

I'll take Paul's word for the "inspiration" of scripture over yours...if that's OK with you.

There is wisdom in Pauls words, but one must be careful how they are used, or they become out of context gibberish.

Your context is factually not Pauls.

Remember Paul was a murderer, so I will take Sojourners educated opinion over someone, you. Who has provided countless examples of refusing fact for faith.

 

[sojourner]

I really do not see how it can be called such. In Mark,He informs the disciples that He will die and rise on the third day. And, according to the tales in the Gospel, that is what happened.

Is it what happened in Mark? Did anyone see him?

So, He knew He was not risking a lot. Maybe a bit of wipping and a weekend without football.

He risked his mortal life and went through unbearable pain and torture. Sounds like a sacrifice to me...

Really, if you knew you are God and will resurrect after the weekend to become the eternal master of the Universe, wouldn't you do it for basically everything?

Did Jesus -- according to Mark -- know that he was God?

 

[JoStories]

The Bible's hell is not Christendom's hell. The ancient Jews did not believe Sheol to be anything other than mankind's grave. There is no immortal soul in man to suffer anything after death. These beliefs are not from the Bible, they are adoptions from paganism.



My faith doesn't offer people anything but the opportunity to get to know the Creator and to takes sides in a universal issue...that of whom we choose as our sovereign.
As the one who gave us life, he alone has the authority to set the terms of our existence. Yet as free willed beings, we have choices. Either prove to be the kind of people whom God would welcome as citizens in his kingdom...or not.
There is no " damned"....there is life or there is death....nothing else.



What God is offering is better than any of us can imagine, and he invites people to serve him.....he does not demand it. As sovereign he makes the rules and enforces them. Like it or not. No one is truly free to do as they wish. We all answer to someone who has authority over us.



I believe that the proof is right under our noses. God testifies to his existence through creation.



The Bible contains many gems of wisdom. We can all benefit from its practical advice.
I don't believe that the prophets were anything other than ordinary men asked to do extraordinary things. God empowered them to write down their experiences and prophesies and to stand form in the face of opposition.

The only "divine" being was Jesus Christ, but I don't believe that he was anything more than what he claimed to be....the son of God.

I will refer you to sojourner' spots as it pretty much says exactly what I would have.

 

[JayJayDee]

@JoStories as well as @sojourner.........

Yes, that's a pretty thought and all, but your faith will only allow people to get to know the Creator as you envision the Creator. Your faith will not celebrate the wondrous variety and differences of the human family and how they choose to envision the Creator. Your faith splits the universe into a dualism, where one must choose a "side," and the correct "side" (yours) must be chosen.

So this is your interpretation of what "you" believe God is doing? Duly noted.

You do not have to believe a word I say......but you can never say that you were not told about these things...can you?

Noah tried to warn the people of his day too, but everyone felt confident in ignoring him. Why did they feel like that? Where did their confidence come from? It s the same confidence affecting people today.

If Jesus used the days of Noah as an example of what will transpire in the near future, then God is not the all forgiving sop that you make him out to be. (Matt 24:36-39)

But the bible tells us that God loves and will save every person.

No it doesn't.
Salvation is conditional. It always was. It requires some effort on our part. If Jesus taught that he will judge between "sheep and goats" at the end times, then the penalty applied to the "goats" is the same one outlined for satan and his demons. (Matt 25:31-33, 41) Where does that leave the ones that Jesus rejects? (Matt 7:21-23) On what basis are people judged to be unacceptable to the appointed judge?

But you do demand that God be served in a certain guise and in a certain way.

I demand nothing...who am I? Just a messenger....nothing more.....one of many. We don't force people to listen.

God's word tells us what makes us acceptable to God and what doesn't. You can ignore all of that if you wish.

Methinks it's you who are making rules and trying to enforce them. To wit:

See?

No, all I see is some trying to wriggle out of their own spiritual responsibility. If God did not require us to keep his laws and principles, why did he bother giving them to us in the first place? God required his nation to "strictly obey" his voice. If they did not, he punished them, often very severely. The scriptures tell us that God does not change....so unless you are worshipping some phoney god of your own invention, then perhaps you should check out Israel's history. It is an integral part of 'all scripture that is inspired of God' and which we need to use to correct faulty reasoning and false beliefs. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

<blank-eyed stare; monotone voices> "Join us... be one of us..."

Nice word picture. Shame it doesn't apply to genuine Christianity, which does not require mindless adherence to meaningless ritual....devotion to idols or the empty worship of a god who has no standards. People are permitted to believe whatever they want to believe.....they are allowed to entertain a strong delusion. (2 Thess 2:8-12) Do people know that they are deluded? We will all know soon enough.
Our choices have consequences. As all choices do.

You will now say that it's not you -- that it's the bible that says these things -- that you're only reading and obeying what the bible tells you.

Oh look...you can read my mind!!!

Problem is, the bible isn't the only holy book, and yours is one of a myriad possible interpretations of it.

I wonder who could be responsible for this situation?

Confusion is hardly a tactic used by the true God. He does not produce a plethora of holy books and tell us to take our pick. He has one communication with humankind......only one. Believe it or not.

Your statements here are dishonest -- not because they're untrue, and not because you don't fervently believe in what you're saying; I'm sure they are your truth, and I'm sure you do believe what you're saying -- but because you're insisting that your vision is the only real vision, and your faith is the only real faith. It's dishonest because it disrespects and dismisses the real faith-experiences of people who are different from you.

My position is one of being responsible before God to undertake a work similar to the one Noah was assigned to do. The work Jesus assigned to his disciples after his departure. (Matt 28:19, 20)
The fact that not many will respond is already a given. We already know that the majority are content with their ignorance, unbelief, and false beliefs. All we do is offer a message....all are judged on their response to that message. (Matt24:14) The world will not get any other warning. And like Jesus said, in Noah's day, they took no notice of anything Noah tried to tell them. By the time the physical evidence of what Noah was saying became evident....it was too late then to make a change. How many survivors were there?

No one will be able to say they weren't warned about what is coming. The world has again reached a level of violence that mirrors Noah's day. A change is coming and most people can feel it in the air. It will not result in what they expect.

Again...you can believe it or not. We all have choices......we must all make them wisely.

 

[JayJayDee]

How can that ne when you don't even know what that message is???????????????

Are you serious? The message that Jehovah's Witnesses bring to all in their neighborhoods is one and the same, the world over.

It is the "good news of the kingdom"......something that Christendom has no knowledge about.

Let me ask you outhouse...what is "the good news" about God's kingdom? (Matt24:14) Can you tell me what God kingdom actually is?

Your own personal version Is not what is taught in major universities. Your blind here without a real education.

When did your love affair with institutions of higher learning begin outhouse? Are they your temples of worship? Are the teachers there appointed by God himself to instruct you?

The one thing that the Pharisees used against Jesus and his disciples was their lack of recognised schooling at their institutions of higher learning.
Your idolising of these things is quite evident in your posts.

And I have seen you reject factual evidence and argue it tooth and nail.

No, you have never seen me reject "factual evidence".....what I reject is biased interpretation of "evidence" by those who have an agenda to uphold. The scientific community is very prone to peer pressure and pre-conceived ideas can force facts to fit into those ideas. I am not swayed by the clever grasshoppers of this world.

Under inspiration by holy spirit, Jesus said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved." (Luke 10:21)

You can idolise the wise and intellectual ones if you like.....they don't really impress me, if what they are saying is opposed to the existence of the Creator.

There is wisdom in Pauls words, but one must be careful how they are used, or they become out of context gibberish.

To whom? Not me.

Your context is factually not Pauls.

You know Paul personally, do you? You know what he taught in his extensive ministry then? You really must introduce me some time.

Remember Paul was a murderer

Good grief!!!! Paul was not a murderer....Saul was the foremost persecutor of Christians....a sect, that from his zealous Jewish viewpoint was undermining his Father's worship. It was this very zeal that God redirected to the true worship promoted by God's son, who was responsible for Saul's very personal conversion. You have a very distorted view of biblical things whilst pointing fingers at others for their ignorance.

so I will take Sojourners educated opinion over someone, you. Who has provided countless examples of refusing fact for faith.

God requires faith, so those without it are never going to make the grade. It isn't an option.

"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen....... Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." (Heb 11:1, 6)

So I'll take the apostle Paul's word over any of yours on this issue.

 

[Domenic]

Go to any farm, or back woods area...You will find what goes into an outhouse is not good, and nothing good ever comes out of one.

 

[truthofscripture]

Go to any farm, or back woods area...You will find what goes into an outhouse is not good, and nothing good ever comes out of one.

Epiphany!

 

[outhouse]

The message that Jehovah's Witnesses bring to all in their neighborhoods is one and the same, the world over.

One vast minority apologetic way to interpret text. Not credible history taught in most every credible university.

Are the teachers there appointed by God himself to instruct you?

No there are not.

Not once has god ever given anyone a diploma or pinned a badge on their chest letting everyone know they are actually his teachers.

Your statement Is unsubstantiated.

You know Paul personally, do you?

What university have you studied Paul at?

 

[outhouse]

God requires faith,

Which god? which one out of thousands man has made requires faith, all of the man made gods? or just yours?

No the concept requires nothing.

The ancient people who lived mythology and wrote to the people told them they had to have faith in a particular god.

 

[outhouse]

Good grief!!!! Paul was not a murderer....

Oh so he went out and shook their hands and they all sang kumbaya together?

Its unknown exactly what happened. But if we go by the cultural anthropology and Pauls own words, he had blood on his hands.