It's said Jesus' sacrificed himself to save us...

[JayJayDee]

One vast minority apologetic way to interpret text. Not credible history taught in most every credible university.

Your record is stuck. LOL Are you an apologist for the schools f higher learning?

No there are not.

Funny that. So you take the words of men over the words of God? OK...you are welcome to that.

Not once has god ever given anyone a diploma or pinned a badge on their chest letting everyone know they are actually his teachers.

No badges, no diplomas, no titles no accolades. These are what Christendom acknowledges.

Daniel foretold a 'cleansing and refining' of God 'so worshippers in "the time of the end", so reasonably we should see a group who manifest at this time who are not a breakaway from any particular sect, who cleanse themselves of all false religious beliefs and practices in this period. We should also see them fulfilling the commission given by Jesus to take "the good news of the kingdom" to people "in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before the end of the present system of things is brought to a finish. (Dan 12: 9, 10; Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)

Your statement Is unsubstantiated.

You never substantiate a word you say.

What university have you studied Paul at?

The same one Jesus attended.

 

[JayJayDee]

Oh so he went out and shook their hands and they all sang kumbaya together?

No, he did that with the Christians later.

Its unknown exactly what happened. But if we go by the cultural anthropology and Pauls own words, he had blood on his hands.

Yes, he was zealous for the worship of his Father...he even approved if the murder of Stephen. The blood on his hands was something he came to deeply regret. Yet, because of his contrite and humble spirit he completely changed his personality and was forgiven by the sin atoning value of Jesus' blood. He became a fine apostle and was privileged to write more of the. Christian scriptures that any other writer. If you have a problem with the credentials of the disciples, then you will find Paul's to be impeccable. He was very well educated, yet he earned his living as a humble tent maker.

 

[outhouse]

The ancient Jews did not believe Sheol to be anything other than mankind's grave

You should not speak of things you know nothing about. Your factually wrong again.

You would have to actually know which culture in Israelite s history you are speaking about, and address a specific timer period, as your opinion does not fly to most all of Judaism.

Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and other Canaanite gods, including Moloch (or Molech), sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.

Abaddon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Hebrew term Abaddon (Hebrew: אֲבַדּוֹן‎, 'Ǎḇaddōn), and its Greek equivalent Apollyon (Greek: Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon), appears in the Bible as both, a place of destruction, and as the name of an angel. In the Hebrew Bible, abaddon is used with reference to a bottomless pit, often appearing alongside the place שאול (sheol), meaning the realm of the dead.

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]

The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades" (rephaim), entities without personality or strength.[2] Under some circumstances they are thought to be able to be contacted by the living, as the Witch of Endor contacts the shade of Samuel for Saul, but such practices are forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:10).[3]

in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BC–70 AD) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone

 

[outhouse]

...he even approved if the murder of Stephen.

Only in Acts, and not by Pauls own hand.

Stephen's speech to the Sanhedrin has no real historicity due to many contradictions, and reflects the unknown author/s of Acts objective more so then anything that took place.

There may be a historical core, but as written Acts, very little holds anything that can be used.

 

[JayJayDee]

You should not speak of things you know nothing about. Your factually wrong again.

You would have to actually know which culture in Israelite s history you are speaking about, and address a specific timer period, as your opinion does not fly to most all of Judaism.

Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am addressing the beliefs of ancient Jews, not modern Judaism. You can see from the Hebrew Scriptures what they believed. The fact that they failed to follow God's word on so many issues, we can hardly use the Jews themselves as shining examples of living up the their own scriptures. Jesus did not have a good thing to say about the teachers of Judaism in his day.

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and other Canaanite gods, including Moloch (or Molech), sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.

Abaddon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ancient Jews did not entertain the notion of eternal conscious torment after death. A destination does not have to be conscious. The grave is a destination for all of us. There is no conscious existence in Sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

The Hebrew term Abaddon (Hebrew: אֲבַדּוֹן‎, 'Ǎḇaddōn), and its Greek equivalent Apollyon (Greek: Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon), appears in the Bible as both, a place of destruction, and as the name of an angel. In the Hebrew Bible, abaddon is used with reference to a bottomless pit, often appearing alongside the place שאול (sheol), meaning the realm of the dead.

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]

The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades" (rephaim), entities without personality or strength.[2] Under some circumstances they are thought to be able to be contacted by the living, as the Witch of Endor contacts the shade of Samuel for Saul, but such practices are forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:10).[3]

You are talking about apostate Judaism, not the beliefs of the ancient Jews. Why did God forbid the nation of Israel to adopt the ways of the Canaanites? Did they obey him? You know they didn't. Did he punish them for this....yes he did....often!

in the

Second Temple period (roughly 500 BC–70 AD) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone

Yes, Wikipedia is the obvious source to go to on these issues. They are good for general knowledge but not a great source for this topic. The Bible is the better source.....it is unadulterated.

Life after death is not a Biblical belief. There is no concept of an immaterial part of man that separates from the body at death. We return to the dust, just as God told Adam.

 

[outhouse]

You are talking about apostate Judaism, not the beliefs of the ancient Jews.

What do you know about the many different cultures of ancient Judaism????????


Your a literalist who does not read or learn history from a credible source.

 

[outhouse]

Life after death is not a Biblical belief. There is no concept of an immaterial part of man that separates from the body at death. We return to the dust, just as God told Adam.

And I sourced it already. Your just wrong.

Your twisting meanings to fit your personal needs.

They had afterlife concepts.

 

[JoStories]

So this is your interpretation of what "you" believe God is doing? Duly noted.

You do not have to believe a word I say......but you can never say that you were not told about these things...can you?

Noah tried to warn the people of his day too, but everyone felt confident in ignoring him. Why did they feel like that? Where did their confidence come from? It s the same confidence affecting people today.

If Jesus used the days of Noah as an example of what will transpire in the near future, then God is not the all forgiving sop that you make him out to be. (Matt 24:36-39)

I dont know how to make this more clear, many people do not believe in the tenets of your faith.
Why is that so hard for you to accept? I understand, although I strongly disagree, that your faith requires you to "speak the Word". But you have been asked, politely and maybe not so politely, not to proselytize. What part of that doesn't resonant?
No, all I see is some trying to wriggle out of their own spiritual responsibility. If God did not require us to keep his laws and principles, why did he bother giving them to us in the first place? God required his nation to "strictly obey" his voice. If they did not, he punished them, often very severely. The scriptures tell us that God does not change....so unless you are worshipping some phoney god of your own invention, then perhaps you should check out Israel's history. It is an integral part of 'all scripture that is inspired of God' and which we need to use to correct faulty reasoning and false beliefs. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

Who would be 'wriggling' here? I attend to my spirituality as I see fit. Who are you to judge me or my spiritual requirements. And what laws are you talking about here? THe ones that are part of your faith or mine or any of the many other faiths on the planet? What gives you the right to think your faith is the only one that matters?

Confusion is hardly a tactic used by the true God. He does not produce a plethora of holy books and tell us to take our pick. He has one communication with humankind......only one. Believe it or not.

Can you prove the Christian Bible is the 'only one'? No. So forgive me if I take your assertions with nothing more than a grain of salt.

 

[JoStories]

You never substantiate a word you say.

What university have you studied Paul at?
The same one Jesus attended.

Yes, actually, he did and has done multiple times. You, OTOH, have not studied this indepth with anyone other than those who concur with your analysis. I, OTOH, have a masters from UOP where my PhD will be from and have studied as much as outhouse has. With scholars of many faiths. Can you say the same? No.

 

[Domenic]

jay jay dee;

Do you not know you can't teach those God has blinded? When they don't want to hear it, or fight against Gods word...have you not been told, "Kick the dust from your feet."
I don't believe in the Watch Tower as being from God, but I do understand the sheep under its control are people who love God.

 

[outhouse]

Do you not know you can't teach those God has blinded?

Which is funny.

Because universities can teach anyone of any faith, things you will never know.

Who is really blind here???????????????? The educated or the ignorant?

 

[outhouse]

The historical man from Nazareth cannot be understood fully if he is divorced from his context; the spread of the Gospel cannot be comprehended unless one appreciates its adaptations to the cultural expectations of its proselytes.

If you cannot understand this you may be blind.

 

[JoStories]

The historical man from Nazareth cannot be understood fully if he is divorced from his context; the spread of the Gospel cannot be comprehended unless one appreciates its adaptations to the cultural expectations of its proselytes.

If you cannot understand this you may be blind.

Indeed. I was surprised at the misconceptions I held before I began my studies, particularly when done in the original languages and compared to other authors of the time period. And I am not talking of the apologists. Comparisons and study must include those who,advocated for the historical Christ and those who did not. And it is imperative that it must be done in Greek (koine), Hebrew, and Aramaic, among others. Etymology changes depending upon context and culture.

 

[morphesium]

...but then it says in the bible that on the 3rd day he rose into heaven.


So where the hell is the sacrifice?

One might argue that he sacrificed his earthly body and yet...

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38

So god clearly didn't think that much of the flesh to make losing it a sacrifice.

Religion is business and is all about power and money - so it needs to "sell" ideas or doctrines if it has to grow. "Come believe in this particular religion, That guy has suffered all the torturing so that you are relieved of your sins and that you can go to heaven because of this".

God has no part in the creation of the bible/christianity or quran/islam. These are all created by human beings and it is not for the good of humanity.

 

[outhouse]

Religion is business and is all about power and money -

False.

Just because people have perverted the concepts for business, does not that is where their origin lies.

These are all created by human beings and it is not for the good of humanity

Sorry but you would have to demonstrate the negative aspects outweigh the positive aspects.

Since you did not, your position remains unsubstantiated rhetoric.

 

[newone]

You never substantiate a word you say.

What university have you studied Paul at?
The same one Jesus attended.

Yes, actually, he did and has done multiple times. You, OTOH, have not studied this indepth with anyone other than those who concur with your analysis. I, OTOH, have a masters from UOP where my PhD will be from and have studied as much as outhouse has. With scholars of many faiths. Can you say the same? No.

I decided a while back not to comment on these posts, but I have been following some threads and thought I may as well comment. I respect the fact that you have spent a lot of time studying and that you will soon receive your PhD. You must admit that there are and will be people with more intelligence and more PhD's than you! Some of these smart people have come to the conclusion that there is no God. I can follow their advice and dismiss God's existence. Which I am unable to do because I look at creation and realize that some intelligent being must have made all this.

Moving forward I am faced with countless religions and faiths to choose from. I find very well educated (University trained) people in all of these "groups", yet they all differ from one another.
The difficult task!, to find the "truth". I am unable to make a decision based on the level of education of the people in these groups as most of them claim to have studied the scriptures.

What do I do????

 

[outhouse]

Some of these smart people have come to the conclusion that there is no God. I can follow their advice and dismiss God's existence. Which I am unable to do because I look at creation and realize that some intelligent being must have made all this.

Has nothing to do with the OP.

I think if you took a class in biology, you will find there is no handprint of any deity anywhere.

What do I do????

Study and make and educated opinion. Which outweighs a non educated opinion.

Remain agnostic, or faithful, and learn about the subject to better make your decision.


As an atheist I have more passion and see more value in text them most faithful because I see the beauty many ruin with a literal interpretation.

One does not have to believe in anything to see moral sand lessons, and understand they were meant fro a different culture that lived mythology and lived a very brutal life. They knew nothing of the natural world around them and they needed guidance. These epic books can still guide you today, but context is key, and only education can provide context to be able to understand the books as written.

 

[newone]

I know it has nothing to do with the OP...I just commented on JoStories post where he seems to claim that because he is more "educated" than some of the other posters we should rather believe his version of the "truth"...

 

[outhouse]

where he seems to claim that because he is more "educated" than some of the other posters we should rather believe his version of the "truth"...

This boils down to this in her context.

A scholars version of what happened is far more reliable then a biased uneducated apologetic version.

 

[newone]

Am I missing something Outhouse?? You are here on a Religious Forum commenting on a religious question from the OP??
Yet you say you are an Atheist??