It's simple! (to be or not to be revisited)

[Heyo]

I'm not sure which thread you're talking about.

This thread: Three recent auditory and optical illusions in pop culture

However, to be clear, I'm reading "people are able to see what they want, no matter what's actually there" as rather unlimited. "They can see whatever they want" does not match my understanding of optical illusions. There are loopholes in perception that can be exploited. These loopholes are specific circumstances that permit a specific illusion. The individual cannot "see whatever they want". I would expect the same of acoustic illusions. The individual cannot hear whatever they want.

You are right when it comes to illusions. "See what they want to see" is rather hyperbole for that. In The dress - Wikipedia the connection is explained as assuming a certain framing (unconsciously).
But delusions are more powerful than illusions. When you have ever debated a flat earther, YEC or MAGAt, you know what I mean. They just deny reality by calling it "mainstream science" or "fake news".

 

[dybmh]

"believe everything that someone tells me about themselves,"

Anyone can identify as Jewish ( the true Jews ) and you believe them? Even while they're trying to convert you to Christianity?

 

[dybmh]

I think I'm going to open a Kabbalah school and Identify as a Rabbi.

Jay, thank you for your support.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The most important thing to do, right now, is to encourage trans people to be out and proud and ... friendly.

The most important thing we can do is enable "trans people to be out and proud and ... friendly." Efforts aimed at disabusing society of ignorance about sex is part of that work.

 

[dybmh]

But delusions are more powerful than illusions. When you have ever debated a flat earther, YEC or MAGAt, you know what I mean. They just deny reality by calling it "mainstream science" or "fake news".

If the words are spoken to their heart, they won't be able to deny it. Not facts. No news articles. Words spoken to their heart. The individual you're describing is passionate.

 

[dybmh]

Efforts aimed at disabusing society of ignorance about sex is part of that work.

That is not what you're doing with this thread.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Anyone can identify as Jewish ( the true Jews ) and you believe them? Even while they're trying to convert you to Christianity?

I think I'm going to open a Kabbalah school and Identify as a Rabbi.

Jay, thank you for your support.

Your hostility towards the OP is noted, not supported.

 

[dybmh]

Your hostility towards the OP is noted, not supported.

You made a foolish statement. I called you on it.

"believe everything that someone tells me about themselves,"

From now on, please refer to me as Rabbi.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

You do you. I would simply:

• "believe everything that someone tells me about themselves," and
• "respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers"

are not at all the same.

That’s good to hear
Because I absolutely think it’s reasonable to question someone’s intentions and motivations for wanting to identify as certain things when they display certain types of behaviour

 

[crossfire]

" ... by those who simply ... "

When gender issues are simplified, trans people lose.

" ... those who simply cannot accept observations ... "

Um. You do realize what an anti-trans individual will say about this? ( I won't type it because it's cruel, and I don't want to see the words on my screen, if possible. )

One must face what is dark within oneself if one are going to overcome it, no? This is true for the individual or any "collective." Repressing it will only cause any poisons to fester. What is the scripture about dressing a wound as if it is not serious and saying shalom? I'll go look it up. (Jeremiah 6:14)

"Perhaps we could learn a lesson ... "

The lesson that can be learned by the "flat-earther" analogy is that smart people are always going to be in the minority. Using "smarts" and "science" isn't going to help sway popular opinion. Hearts and minds are needed to effect political change. Hearts and minds are convinced with person-to-person relationships and connections with minorities.

Changing minds need accurate information, no? If you substitute one version of ignorance for another, it's still ignorance. I do agree with you about being friendly and associating with others is good for changing hearts.

The lasting political change follows this. The most important thing to do, right now, is to encourage trans people to be out and proud and ... friendly.

The question is, would this be "bandaging lightly?" Not treating a wound as serious? You gotta clean out a wound before bandaging it if you don't want the infection to spread and become septic. It seems like it is on the verge of becoming septic in some parts of society.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That’s good to hear
Because I absolutely think it’s reasonable to question someone’s intentions and motivations for wanting to identify as certain things when they display certain types of behaviour

Perhaps the presumption should be that "someone’s intentions and motivations for wanting to identify as certain things" is that he or she is those certain things. And, yes, in some cases the presumption could be wrong.

I'm married and living with my second wife of some three decades.

I suspect that your initial response upon hearing this is not to question my "intentions and motivations for wanting to identify as certain things," although one might imagine scenarios where questioning might seem reasonable.

 

[dybmh]

One must face what is dark within oneself if one are going to overcome it, no? This is true for the individual or any "collective." Repressing it will only cause any poisons to fester. What is the scripture about dressing a wound as if it is not serious and saying shalom? I'll go look it up. (Jeremiah 6:14)

Yes, I agree, but, I've read your whole reply, and I'm not yet seeing the relevance. It may come to me later.

Changing minds need accurate information, no? If you substitute one version of ignorance for another, it's still ignorance. I do agree with you about being friendly and associating with others is good for changing hearts.

The accurate information that's needed is emotive. That's the common ground. The mind will follow the heart in this case. And it must because both sides are arguing: "You can't believe what you see." And then one-side tries to **show** the other side something that's supposed to be persuasive.

The question is, would this be "bandaging lightly?" Not treating a wound as serious? You gotta clean out a wound before bandaging it if you don't want the infection to spread and become septic. It seems like it is on the verge of becoming septic in some parts of society.

I see it completely differently. It's not septic. It's perfectly natural and necessary.

I was told, somewhat recently, by three different trans people, one trans-man, and two trans-women, that they themself were transphobic. The two trans-women are the most recent, I recall their words best. They said, and agreed with each other's experience, as they became more and more aware of their non-typical gender, they became more and more transphobic. The cognitive dissonance cannot be understated. They were tortured by it. Contemplating suicide, volatility, depression... Their world was being toppled over, repeatedly, over and over and over again.... and then.... like a rocket finally breaking free.... a realization and something which resembles relief.

Anti-trans people, they're going through something similar, to a lesser degree. It's perfectly natural. But, it needs to get worse, before it gets better. It's turbulent breaking free. For anyone.

 

[crossfire]

Anti-trans people, they're going through something similar, to a lesser degree. It's perfectly natural. But, it needs to get worse, before it gets better. It's turbulent breaking free. For anyone.

Breaking free like a pus filled festering wound erupting in an explosion of poisons? It's not necessary to push it to that point.

 

[dybmh]

Breaking free like a pus filled festering wound erupting in an explosion of poisons?

Like I said, I see it completely differently. Not pus, not a festering wound. It's turbulent. It's dissonant. It's accepting contradictory truths simultaneously.

It's not necessary to push it to that point.

Well. Who do you see as "pushing"? I see both sides pushing, both for good reasons.

 

[crossfire]

Like I said, I see it completely differently. Not pus, not a festering wound. It's turbulent. It's dissonant. It's accepting contradictory truths simultaneously.



Well. Who do you see as "pushing"? I see both sides pushing, both for good reasons.

Poisons (greed, hatred, delusion) are not "contradictory truths," as they can overcome your mind and discernment. They are impairments. You may gain some immunity from them overcoming your mind by knowing them for what they are, and healing can take place. They can be insidious if they are not recognized for what they are. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to these poisons, just as unrecognized and lightly bandaged wounds allowed to fester is not bliss.

 

[Revoltingest]

You made a foolish statement. I called you on it.



From now on, please refer to me as Rabbi.

Your posts appear to be a game played, ie, designed
to ignore his intent. To believe what people say about
themselves is not about intent to deceive when they
speak of personal mental health issues. Believing
them has high benefits & low risk compared to
dismissing them.

 

[dybmh]

Poisons (greed, hatred, delusion)

( For my own clarity )

In this case, we're discussing delusions? And the proposed remedy is accurate knowledge?

They can be insidious if they are not recognized for what they are

Ah! Thank you! Now I see the connection to the verse in Jeremiah.

Poisons (greed, hatred, delusion) are not "contradictory truths,"

They're simultaneously contradictory truths in this way: each of those three can be simultaneously helpful and harmful.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

Man-and-not-man.
Woman-and-not-woman.

To the passionately anti-trans the above is the last straw in a series of attempts to recreate reality where anything and everything is "true". They have zero tolerance for it; they feel they're surrounded by a world of deception and lies, "the deep state".

 

[dybmh]

Your posts appear to be a game played, ie, designed
to ignore his intent. To believe what people say about
themselves is not about intent to deceive when they
speak of personal mental health issues. Believing
them has high benefits & low risk compared to
dismissing them.

I understand. In this debate, I am advocating for a group which is not present to defend itself. Jay's comment* was directed to this absent group. I was reacting as they would. The "simple" directive would get flushed down the commode because it "fails the spoon test."

* (@Jayhawker Soule, tagging you in strict adherence to the forum rules. )

 

[crossfire]

( For my own clarity )

In this case, we're discussing delusions? And the proposed remedy is accurate knowledge?

Hatred, that can become delusion when it overcomes your mind.

Ah! Thank you! Now I see the connection to the verse in Jeremiah.

I'm glad for you.

They're simultaneously contradictory truths in this way: each of those three can be simultaneously helpful and harmful.

Ah, but the poisons can overcome one's mind--and therefore one's unbiased judgment

But that's not what I'm talking about.

Man-and-not-man.
Woman-and-not-woman.

To the passionately anti-trans the above is the last straw in a series of attempts to recreate reality where anything and everything is "true". They have zero tolerance for it; they feel they're surrounded by a world of deception and lies, "the deep state".

This demonstrates how hatred can overcome ones mind, and hence, the usefulness of the article from the opening post.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand. In this debate, I am advocating for a group which is not present to defend itself. Jay's comment* was directed to this absent group. I was reacting as they would. The "simple" directive would get flushed down the commode because it "fails the spoon test."

* (@Jayhawker Soule, tagging you in strict adherence to the forum rules. )

I prefer sporks.