Jesus adherents only: How is a ''separate' trinity concept, not polytheism?

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Ken;

hmmm... he told the disciple that they did know the Father. Not a separate truth but one that the Old Testament declared.

Ah NO my friend - He told the RABBIS that - not the disciples - the PHARISEES - He told THEM that they do not know the Father at all and that THEY SERVE THE £SATAN" CHARACTER - He was very precise about that.. And this ties in precisely with His other statements doesnt it where He tells the people to shun and avoid the temple its leaders and that they must give all that up if they want HIS truth...You know -you must HATE your parents..??..Work it out Folks....Take the religious blinkers off and see obvious truth.. NO MISTAKE a TOTALLY SEPERATE DEITY - NEVER before encountered by ANY Soul here not EVER He said explicitly to Judas :

“Come, that I may teach you about [secrets] no person [has] ever seen. For there exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen, in which there is a great invisible Spirit, which no eye of an angel has ever seen, no thought of the heart has ever comprehended,and it was never called by any name.“

VERY CLEAR AND PRECISE - yes..?..THIS is WHY HE says they do NOT know the Father - NOT a difference of viewpoint and understanding - but a TOTALLY NEW DEITY NEVER BEFORE ENCOUNTERED !!! LOOK - SECRETS that NO SOUL HERE has EVER known He says...NOT EVEN the "generation of Angels" know THIS legitimate Spirit He says !! An entireyl SEPERATE realm that contains this Spirit, Our Father that He says EXPLICITLY that NO SOUL EVER has encountered before.......This is why He said Iam the way and the ONLY way !!! NOT a differenc eof viewpoint -an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DEITY !!! Im sorry - but all the rest of your confusion stems from THIS TRUTH..Claimed by Him always - clearly - precisely - and said in many MANY ways that leave no doubt at all...To Thomas He says similar :

"I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."

LOOK - again He speaks of SECRETS and again makes it VERY CLEAR this is NOT THE GOD YAHWEH - as He says here that nobody has EVER known THIS NEW TRUTH - and yet as we know - they ALREADY KNOW this "yahweh" and have an INTIMATE relationship already for thousands of years already - but here is our mate telling us that HIS TRUTH is UNKNOWN by any of them !!!!!

They showed Him a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

AND AGAIN !!!!! NO AFFILIATION to their "god" at all - makes it PLAIN to see - distinguishes Himself as ENTIRELY SEPERATE from BOTH mortal world AND the religion of their "god" - classes Himself as entirely seperate and distinct from both and phrases it so there can be no mistakke - give Emporer what is due - give this "god" what is due - then give ME what is Mine He says - three distinct concerns and aspects to life - the mortal concerns - the religious spiritual truth they NOW have -and the NEW truth h eis delivering fresh......NOT THE SAME DEITY - undeniable - but if you need it spelled out then go look at ORIGINAL JOHN - and see the ENTIRE HEIRACHY OF CREATION FULLY EXPLAINED - and there can be no doubt at all - the one you call "god" IS AN ANGEL and not a true Divine.. Here is truth - SECRET John as it is now known - BANNED by your religion as herasy yet tells us literally EVERYTHING from start to finish...I shall show you direct relevant points that leave no room for doubt at all :

The One rules all. Nothing has authority over it. It is the God. It is Father of everything, Holy One The invisible one over everything. It is uncontaminated Pure light no eye can bear to look within. The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God.
Nothing is above it. Nothing rules it. Since everything exists within it It does not exist within anything. Since it is not dependent on anything It is eternal.
It is absolutely complete and so needs nothing. It is utterly perfect Light. The One is without boundaries Nothing exists outside of it to border it The One cannot be investigated Nothing exists apart from it to investigate it The One cannot be measured Nothing exists external to it to measure it The One cannot be seen For no one can envision it The One is eternal For it exists forever The One is inconceivable For no one can comprehend it
The One is indescribable For no one can put any words to it. The One is infinite light Purity Holiness Stainless, The One is incomprehensible Perfectly free from corruption. Not “perfect” Not “blessed” Not “divine” But superior to such concepts. Neither physical nor unphysical Neither immense nor infinitesimal It is impossible to specify in quantity or quality For it is beyond knowledge.

The One is not a being among other beings It is vastly superior But it is not “superior.” It is outside of realms of being and time For whatever is within realms of being was created And whatever is within time had time allotted to it The One receives nothing from anything. It simply apprehends itself in its own perfect light The One is majestic. The One is measureless majesty Chief of all Realms Producing all realms Light Producing light Life Producing life
Blessedness Producing blessedness Knowledge Producing knowledge Good Producing goodness Mercy Producing mercy Generous Producing generosity It does not “possess” these things. It gives forth light beyond measure, beyond comprehension. What can I say?

His realm is eternal, peaceful, silent, resting, before everything. He is the head of every realm sustaining each of them through goodness.

That Folks - is Christ describing my FATHER the primal sovereign spirit - see now already the religious here are confused Im guessing - because their god is NOTHING like that - their bible god is a poor mimickery of THIS Holy Spirit described fully here by Christ...NOT the same deity - not at all - soon becomes very clear and undeniable !! Note even here - MY FATHER is an entity that is NOT A BEING AMONG OTHER BEINGS !!!

There is no way then, did MY FATHER exist "in heaven on a throne surrounded by angels"...lol...RIDICULOUS !! NO way did it say - "come here let US make a man in OUR image" - because Christ just said my Father does not even exist in that individual human like form AT ALL !! NO WAY did it EVER interact DIRECTLY with man because it is NOT A BEING AMONG OTHER BEINGS !!!!!! let it sink in DEEP - entirely UNKNOWN DEITY !!! Really - this cannot be described in this manner - it has to be DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED to even begin to be comprehended...GNOSIS !! And for htis direct experience there is only one legitimate truth - CHRIST - who says ALL THIS here - but says next to NOTHING of any import in the "bible version"...The religion does NOT want you to have THIS truth - because it shows clearly their "god" is a fraud !!!

My Father EXISTS OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE - as we experience it....But look again - there are MANY SUCH REALMS of DIFFERENT "time and space" - and my Father is the CAUSE of them ALL...Your "god" Yahweh is ISOLATED in this SINGLE realm - Lord and creator HERE in this realm alone - but there are MANY REALMS that as Christ said, the Angels HERE have no conception of at all...This realm SEPERATE AND ISOLATED -Souolsd here OBLIVIOUS ot any other Creation.. THIS is what He means when He tells the Jews they know NOTHING of spiritual truth - ALL THESE OTHER REALMS that they NOR THEIR god have ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT....The god HERE is NOT the god of them ALL...The god here is then a much lesser entity - an ARCHON as it is now known !!!

Im not going to re quote the entire gospel here - go read it for yourselves - its freely available once again in this wonderous modern age.. http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html - some relevant point s though :

We would know nothing of the ineffable And nothing of the immeasurable Without the help of the one who comes forth from the One who is the Father. He alone has informed us.]

Be clear then -WE CAN ONLY TRUST CHRIST !!!! NOBODY ELSE He says knows ANYTHING about this legitimate Divine Spirit...Only CHRIST who alone has come forth FROM the Father can tell us its truth !! NOT THE RELIGION - already established truth - that does NOT know the Father He warns - only Christ alone - and as we know for THIS truth they will MURDER HIM to keep it silent !! Be absolutely clear Folks - He said it insistantly and adamantly - the religion and its god KNOW NOTHING OF THE TRUE DIVINE !! He will go on to explain HOW and WHY Creation ACTUALLY happens and will start to explain the HEIRACHY and successive order of what got created when and by whom....First He will explain a TRINITY - primal Divine existance from which all the MATERIAL worlds of form and structure will come forth...The very first stirring awareness of this Father Mind causes a LIGHT to shine forth - no need really to explain WHY this happens, or why it is indeed experienced as a LIGHT as opposed to any other symbol - but I can if you need - for now it is enough to understand the Father is a MIND that comprehends its own Self as a LIGHT - the Light IS the MInd - the Light is a SYMBOL of the Fathers SELF AWARENESS - no seperation....It KNOWS this of itself and thus a PERSONA is formed of the Self - a self reflective awareness and IDENTITY - a "personality" as we would term it....:Thus it all begins here :

His self-aware thought (ennoia) came into being. Appearing to him in the effulgence of his light. She stood before him. This, then, is the first of the powers, prior to everything. Arising out of the mind of the Father The Providence (pronoia) of everything. Her light reflects His light. She is from His image in His light Perfect in power Image of the invisible perfect Virgin Spirit. She is the initial power glory of Barbelo glorious among the realms glory of revelation She gave glory to the Virgin Spirit She praised Him For she arose from Him. This, the first Thought, is the Spirit’s image She is the universal womb She is before everything She is: Mother-Father First Man Holy Spirit Thrice Male Thrice Powerful Thrice Named Androgynous eternal realm First to arise among the invisible realms. .

See again RELIGIOUS CONFUSION - they say Christ alone is the SON of the Father - but look - here FIRST - is a FEMININE aspect - a "goddess" - and SHE comes forth FIRST and is the CAUSE of the Christ counterpart as explained in a moment.. Here She is first named BARBELLO and in this state She is the ENTIRETY of the mind - "a REALM of existance" within the Mind (nothing physical or material YET) - She is as said a Divine PERSOANLITY - a "goddess" as we would term Her.. Try to follow this - SHE - is the LIGHT that KNOWS She is the Creator !! She is THAT Self representation - the living WISDOM of all that She does, known FULLY and COMPLETELY - the ENTIRETY of it All as All will be formed FROM Her living fully Conscious Light - (energy as we will term it nowadays) - She is the "universal womb" as literally ALL MATERIAL CREATION will be formed FROM this source of Light /Energy all fully under HER domain AS Barbello (first REALM of existance).... In Her INDIVIDUAL aspect, She is named SOFIA and to the much later religion, they will stick with that description from John above, and name Her as simply "Holy Ghost" and try to play down Her status and importance....She is CHRISTS EQUAL AND CONSORT - and actually SHE comes forth FIRST even before Him...WATCH :

 

[PeteC-UK]

The Father looked into Barbelo into the pure light surrounding the Invisible Spirit Barbelo conceived and bore a spark of light
Who had blessedness similar to her blessedness, Who was the only child of that mother–father The only offspring, The only begotten child of the pure light, the Father.

The Invisible Virgin Spirit celebrated the light that had been produced Coming forth from the first power who is The Providence Barbelo
The Spirit anointed him with Goodness, making him perfect he lacked no goodness whatsoever, for he was anointed with the Invisible Spirit’s complete Goodness He stood in the Spirit’s presence and it was poured upon him. Having received this anointing from the Spirit he immediately glorified Him And he glorified the perfect Providence Barbelo Because of Her he had come into being.

He asked for Mind (nous) to be a companion to him. The Spirit consented When the Invisible Spirit consented Mind came into being. It stood by the Anointed and glorified the Spirit and Barbelo These beings came into existence through silence and thought.

He wished to act through the Word of the Invisible Spirit. Whose Will became an action and appeared with Mind Glorifying the Light And then Word followed Will into being. The Christ, the divine autogenes, Created everything through the Word. Everlasting Life and Will, Mind, and Foreknowledge Stood together. They glorified the Invisible Spirit and Barbelo. Because of Her they had come into being.

A TRINITY fully explained - the Father - INVISBILE and VIRGIN SPIRIT - it is the CAUSE - literally, IMAGINATION as w ewould term it -the parto fmind that CHOOSES and DECIDES waht to Be.....

BARBELO - first realm of existance - embodiment of Divine WISDOM - fully Self aware and Sentient...A literal living CONSCIOUS LIGHT/ energy that will be used to form ALL creation...The Goddess SOFIA and also the Holy Ghost we seek..The Father calls forth Sofia, who in sequence calls forth CHRIST.. These THREE exist AS LIGHT -NO material forms at all - PURE ENERGY - existing as it says in SILENCE and THOUGHT !!!

(remember Christ teaching about an empty silent mind and how utterly vital and crucial that inner communion REALLY is - makes sense now yes..?? - this is indeed the state that the Divine exist in)....

Father explained -Sofia Holy Ghost explained..CHRIST - comes forth as the Father CHOOSES to Create - looks into the mind and forms a new idea of Self - and so a new PERSONALITY EMERGES !! This One - received EVERYTHING, the complete BEING and complete SELF AWAREBNESS was given DIRECTION and INTENT given personality...Therefore He is the living WILL of the Father - its WORD and DIRECTION - what it chooses and INTENDS to create is formed BY CHRIST, given its designated form and structure BY this aspect of personality.....If Sofia is the embodiment of "Divine Wisdom" - then Christ is the embodiment of "Divine intelligence and Logic" - and TOGETHER always in UNION they go on to form the MATERIAL worlds as also fully described...All this may seem irrelevant to some here - but honestly it is CRUCIAL -Christ teaches of THIS metaphysical and purely SPIRITUAL origin - the bible is speaking of much later events after the material worlds have ALREADY formed...the "god" HERE is NOT the SOURCE of that creation - it is a CREATURE called forth as part of a grater heirachy with many similar realms and entities - just one among many made in due process as we all are and ALL coming from that TRUE Divine Origin...This one is actually a MISTAKE - an ACCIDENT - UNINTENDED ACTION :

It happened that the realm (aeon) Wisdom (Sophia) Of conceptual thought (Epinoia), Began to think for herself, She used the thinking (enthymesis)
And the foreknowledge (prognosis) Of the Invisible Spirit She attempted to reveal an image from herself To do so without the consent of the Spirit, Who did not approve, Without the thoughtful assistance of her masculine counterpart Christ Who did not approve. Without the Invisible Spirit’s consent Without the knowledge of her partner She brought it into being.

Because she had unconquerable Power Her thought was not unproductive. Something imperfect came out of her Different in appearance from her.
Because she had created it without her masculine counterpart She gave rise to a misshapen being unlike herself.

So lets be clear then -Christ says directly that the goddess Sofia - one time - attempts ot create ALONE and WITHOUD HIs input...The result is something "abnormal" mis shapen and UNLIKE Her Self....LOOK :

Sophia saw what her desire produced. It changed into the form of a dragon with a lion’s head And eyes flashing lightning bolts. She cast him far from her, Outside of the realm of the immortal beings So that they could not see him She had created him in ignorance Sophia surrounded him with a brilliant cloud,
Put a throne in the center part of the cloud So that no one would see it. She named him Yaldabaoth

See again the clear religious confusion and manipulation here - THIS one created by mistake - a stray unguarded Divine impulse - causes this malformed Angel to come forth..IT RESEMBLES A DRAGON !!! Shocked, scared and ashamed, Sofia its creator CASTS OT OUT OF HEAVEN !!!! This one created here resembles a mis shapen DRAGON - IS the "god of the bible" - and this will be undeniable - again - LOOK - CHRIST SPEAKING DIRECTLY FOLKS - tells us how this one named Yaldaboath has MANY NAMES and how in its own turn it creates its OWN WORLDS and own Angels and claims godhood over them all - until an event happens in the realm of the TRUE Divine above that absolutely PROVES this god is not legitimate,not the SOURCE of Creation itself and EVERY Soul HERE becomes aware of its deception :

Then came a voice from the highest realms saying: “The Man exists! And the Son of Man!”

Yaldabaoth, chief ruler, heard it He thought it came from his mother He did not know the true source of the voice: The Holy Mother-Father Perfect Providence Image of the Invisible Father of Everything In whom everything has come to be.

The First Man Adamus created above This is the one who appeared to them below He appeared in the form of a human being.

All of the realm of the chief ruler quaked! The foundations of the abyss moved! He illuminated the waters above the world of matter, His image shown in those waters. All the demons and the first ruler together gazed up Toward the underside of the newly shining waters. Through that light they saw the Image in the waters.

Yaldabaoth said to his subordinate demons: “Let’s create a man according to the image of God And our own likeness So that his image will illuminate us.”

Each one through another’s Power created aspects of the man; Each added a characteristic corresponding to the psychic factors they had seen in the Image above them. They made a creature of substance In the likeness of that perfect First Man And they said, “Let us call him Adam, so that his name will give us the power of light.”

VERY VERY CLEAR !!!!

Yaldaboath - as it is first known - is a dragon looking Angel created by mistake bythe Godess Sofia....She hides it alone and isolated in a SEPERATE parto fo creatin and obscures it with an energetic barrier to keep it concealed...But then in the high and first realm -a creation event happens - ADAMUS - and this event breaks that barrier and now contact is made realm to forgotten realm - they ALL know of each others existance now...

Yaldaboath and his own angels (note though this is CHRIST speaking here and He says these lesser angels created here are those we would term DEMONS - definate distinction - everythng HERE in this realm is NOT DIVINE - it is much much LESSER creation) - so they ALl witness this Divine event - and it is AWESOME - so much so that they try to MIMICK IT and to replicate - somehow - that great magnificent powert they all just witnessed DIRECTLY !!

And so Yaldaboath - stated clearly - a misshapen CREATED ANGEL that resembles a DRAGON - gathers his own creatures to him and WITH THEIR AID and COMBINED POWER - they DIRECTLY create MANKIND !!

NOT A GOD - only an ANGEL He said...NOT the SOURCE of creation -but only a CREATURE - exactly like You and I are....NOT DIVINE - yet claiming that title and authoirty over us and thus dominated us unjustly by not allowing US to come to he truth of the Divine !! For THIS reason Christ intercedes on our behalf !!!

The THREE religions that this so called god spawned are ALL tools to keep this god secure in its domination and status over us....They are a manipulation and twisting of all this ORIGINAL and SPIRITUAL TRUTH as relayed by Christ directly - from my Fathers first stirring Self awareness through to mankind finally walks the Earth as a mortal form - ALL fully explained by Him alone...

We see clearly and UNDENIABLY that the Father is a purely abstract none material SPIRIT that is ONLY accessed DIRECTLY MIND to MIND.... The Father is a LIVING TRUTH that needs to be EXPERIENCED to be comprehended....You DO NOT come to my Father He said, from these "external sources of man" lol

The religion and the bible though, speak of things AFTER the material creation has already began - read genesis CAREFULLY for clarification -things are already in existance there BEFORE this so called god ever makes a move - the religion and bible speaks of CREATURES and their actions and consequences and has no legitimate truth of the Spiritual Father Source of All to offer - Christ said it all explicitly and openly...

Undeniable - if we trust HIM - for this truth they murdered Him and then the religions HAVE spent all their time and effort to eradicate legitimate spiritual truth....Just look at all that catholic inquisition, the so called holy wars and crusades against "pagans" and practically any other religion or ofrm of sipiritual truth - all the doctrines forbidding spiritual communication - all the insistance that they go to "bible and ONLY bible REJECT OUT OF HAND all other as herasy" - just shows us clearly the deceipt and manipulation - all entirely necassary of course as the god itself IS a deceiver and if mankind had open spiritual communication then we would soon learn this truth directly - as many already have hence the religion did indeed try to eradicate all legitimate spiritual truth and did indeed try to replace it the world over with bogus and enforced religious doctrines.....

The god o the religion is NOT OUR FATHER - and look -ORIGINAL gospel of John lays it all out plain to see...Indeed All the original disciple gosples tell the same narraive - completly different to the MANUFACTURED BIBLE - and yes - despite the protestations the bible canon IS manufactured ot order and is not "divinely insired " atall...lol.....


Now - you (all) have compete truth of our legitimate origins as Christ relayed ot to John directly - -you can compare it with that which the bible religion has to say and choose for yourselves of course - who do TRUST - man who gave you that religion - - with obvious agenda and strings attached..??..

or do you DARE to ACTUALLY trust CHRIST. - who gives you the Divine truth freely without any reward expected, and who does so for your own good and not for His

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Clear; Whilst I myself dont bother with the religious malarky - still - such evidence does exist if you need it..As said the Hebrews DID have the "death penalty" for all those supposed spiritual crimes - as did the christian religon likewise set out to eradicate spiritual truth under crusades and inquisitions - torture and murder always their way..As dd the Muslims also enforece a strict code of intolerance again through violence an dmurders -and allthe way through the clear intent and result is indeed to keep mankind ignorant of spiritual truths and to enforece a DICTATED spiritual truth of "this god and ONLY this god"...

I cant see a point in me trawling the religious tomes for you just to point out what is blindigly obvios given actual world history and events...lol...besides as said - the religion is manufactured to order - new made to coincide and harmonsise with old on purpose - freely admitted - but still, the truth is sometimes glimpsed - just look HONESTLY at canon John - see that first confrontation in its legitmate context - NOT the same "god" at all - realise THAT first - then the rest makes perfect sense

 

[Clear]

1) PeteC-UK said (post #61) “…"god" also claims to be the ONLY GOD in existance - and yet it openly admits that yes others DO EXIST but we are FORBIDDEN their knowledge..
2) Clear asked PeteC-UK : "Can you explain your theory that the “Judaic” God forbade knowledge regarding other Gods? Are you referring to rabbinic prohibitions? Do you have examples that such knowledge was forbidden by the “Judaic” God that might make your claim more clear? " (post #76)
3) PeteC-UK responded in post #77 "Clear; Let me be "clear" - lol - I DONT RELY on ANY "religious material" for the truth here" (post #77)
4) Clear responded : By claiming that the "Judaic" God forbade knowledge of other Gods, you are making a historical claim. Am I to understand by your reply, that you are creating a historical theory without referencing a single historical textual source??? If you admit that you have no data, no texts, no "religious material" and no historical evidence that this specific theory is actually correct, then this deficiency undermines your theory. What motive would anyone interested in correct historical information have for accepting this unusual and illogical specific claim if it has no supporting historical data? Do you see the problem of making a patently irrational historical claim without at least some sort of supporting historical data? (post #79)
5) Pete C-UK responded : ....I myself dont bother with the religious malarky....evidence does exist if you need it....I cant see a point in me trawling the religious tomes for you...



Hi Pete C-UK : You did not answer the simple question.

If your specific theory has no supporting data, then why should individuals interested in authentic history pay it any attention? Simply claiming you don't want to "bother" with data has consequences with forum readers.

If you remain unwilling to "bother" with authentic historical data and will not study historical "religious tomes", and continue to refuse to offer historical data to support your theory on this point, then you can never develop a viable and historically accurate theory that can survive even the simple question you were asked.

Thinking individuals interested in authentic historical religious theories based on historical data have no motive to adopt illogical or irrational dogmatic claims. If you want to generate interest in your a personal dogmatic theory you will need to enter their world of authentic historical theory and offer logic and historical data to them.

I hope it makes sense why rational individuals may not have interest in your unusual and illogical claim that "god" also claims to be the ONLY GOD in existance - and yet it openly admits that yes others DO EXIST but we are FORBIDDEN their knowledge.." (Pete C-UK post #61).

In any case, whether you choose to enter the historical world of historical data or not, I hope your spiritual journey is good.

Clear
νεσισεω

 

[Kenny]

Hi Folks...

Ken;

Ah NO my friend - He told the RABBIS that - not the disciples - the PHARISEES - He told THEM that they do not know the Father at all and that THEY SERVE THE £SATAN" CHARACTER - He was very precise about that.. And this ties in precisely with His other statements doesnt it where He tells the people to shun and avoid the temple its leaders and that they must give all that up if they want HIS truth...You know -you must HATE your parents..??..Work it out Folks....Take the religious blinkers off and see obvious truth.. NO MISTAKE a TOTALLY SEPERATE DEITY - NEVER before encountered by ANY Soul here not EVER He said explicitly to Judas :



VERY CLEAR AND PRECISE - yes..?..THIS is WHY HE says they do NOT know the Father - NOT a difference of viewpoint and understanding - but a TOTALLY NEW DEITY NEVER BEFORE ENCOUNTERED !!! LOOK - SECRETS that NO SOUL HERE has EVER known He says...NOT EVEN the "generation of Angels" know THIS legitimate Spirit He says !! An entireyl SEPERATE realm that contains this Spirit, Our Father that He says EXPLICITLY that NO SOUL EVER has encountered before.......This is why He said Iam the way and the ONLY way !!! NOT a differenc eof viewpoint -an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DEITY !!! Im sorry - but all the rest of your confusion stems from THIS TRUTH..Claimed by Him always - clearly - precisely - and said in many MANY ways that leave no doubt at all...To Thomas He says similar :



LOOK - again He speaks of SECRETS and again makes it VERY CLEAR this is NOT THE GOD YAHWEH - as He says here that nobody has EVER known THIS NEW TRUTH - and yet as we know - they ALREADY KNOW this "yahweh" and have an INTIMATE relationship already for thousands of years already - but here is our mate telling us that HIS TRUTH is UNKNOWN by any of them !!!!!



AND AGAIN !!!!! NO AFFILIATION to their "god" at all - makes it PLAIN to see - distinguishes Himself as ENTIRELY SEPERATE from BOTH mortal world AND the religion of their "god" - classes Himself as entirely seperate and distinct from both and phrases it so there can be no mistakke - give Emporer what is due - give this "god" what is due - then give ME what is Mine He says - three distinct concerns and aspects to life - the mortal concerns - the religious spiritual truth they NOW have -and the NEW truth h eis delivering fresh......NOT THE SAME DEITY - undeniable - but if you need it spelled out then go look at ORIGINAL JOHN - and see the ENTIRE HEIRACHY OF CREATION FULLY EXPLAINED - and there can be no doubt at all - the one you call "god" IS AN ANGEL and not a true Divine.. Here is truth - SECRET John as it is now known - BANNED by your religion as herasy yet tells us literally EVERYTHING from start to finish...I shall show you direct relevant points that leave no room for doubt at all :



That Folks - is Christ describing my FATHER the primal sovereign spirit - see now already the religious here are confused Im guessing - because their god is NOTHING like that - their bible god is a poor mimickery of THIS Holy Spirit described fully here by Christ...NOT the same deity - not at all - soon becomes very clear and undeniable !! Note even here - MY FATHER is an entity that is NOT A BEING AMONG OTHER BEINGS !!!

There is no way then, did MY FATHER exist "in heaven on a throne surrounded by angels"...lol...RIDICULOUS !! NO way did it say - "come here let US make a man in OUR image" - because Christ just said my Father does not even exist in that individual human like form AT ALL !! NO WAY did it EVER interact DIRECTLY with man because it is NOT A BEING AMONG OTHER BEINGS !!!!!! let it sink in DEEP - entirely UNKNOWN DEITY !!! Really - this cannot be described in this manner - it has to be DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED to even begin to be comprehended...GNOSIS !! And for htis direct experience there is only one legitimate truth - CHRIST - who says ALL THIS here - but says next to NOTHING of any import in the "bible version"...The religion does NOT want you to have THIS truth - because it shows clearly their "god" is a fraud !!!

My Father EXISTS OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE - as we experience it....But look again - there are MANY SUCH REALMS of DIFFERENT "time and space" - and my Father is the CAUSE of them ALL...Your "god" Yahweh is ISOLATED in this SINGLE realm - Lord and creator HERE in this realm alone - but there are MANY REALMS that as Christ said, the Angels HERE have no conception of at all...This realm SEPERATE AND ISOLATED -Souolsd here OBLIVIOUS ot any other Creation.. THIS is what He means when He tells the Jews they know NOTHING of spiritual truth - ALL THESE OTHER REALMS that they NOR THEIR god have ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT....The god HERE is NOT the god of them ALL...The god here is then a much lesser entity - an ARCHON as it is now known !!!

Im not going to re quote the entire gospel here - go read it for yourselves - its freely available once again in this wonderous modern age.. http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html - some relevant point s though :



Be clear then -WE CAN ONLY TRUST CHRIST !!!! NOBODY ELSE He says knows ANYTHING about this legitimate Divine Spirit...Only CHRIST who alone has come forth FROM the Father can tell us its truth !! NOT THE RELIGION - already established truth - that does NOT know the Father He warns - only Christ alone - and as we know for THIS truth they will MURDER HIM to keep it silent !! Be absolutely clear Folks - He said it insistantly and adamantly - the religion and its god KNOW NOTHING OF THE TRUE DIVINE !! He will go on to explain HOW and WHY Creation ACTUALLY happens and will start to explain the HEIRACHY and successive order of what got created when and by whom....First He will explain a TRINITY - primal Divine existance from which all the MATERIAL worlds of form and structure will come forth...The very first stirring awareness of this Father Mind causes a LIGHT to shine forth - no need really to explain WHY this happens, or why it is indeed experienced as a LIGHT as opposed to any other symbol - but I can if you need - for now it is enough to understand the Father is a MIND that comprehends its own Self as a LIGHT - the Light IS the MInd - the Light is a SYMBOL of the Fathers SELF AWARENESS - no seperation....It KNOWS this of itself and thus a PERSONA is formed of the Self - a self reflective awareness and IDENTITY - a "personality" as we would term it....:Thus it all begins here :



See again RELIGIOUS CONFUSION - they say Christ alone is the SON of the Father - but look - here FIRST - is a FEMININE aspect - a "goddess" - and SHE comes forth FIRST and is the CAUSE of the Christ counterpart as explained in a moment.. Here She is first named BARBELLO and in this state She is the ENTIRETY of the mind - "a REALM of existance" within the Mind (nothing physical or material YET) - She is as said a Divine PERSOANLITY - a "goddess" as we would term Her.. Try to follow this - SHE - is the LIGHT that KNOWS She is the Creator !! She is THAT Self representation - the living WISDOM of all that She does, known FULLY and COMPLETELY - the ENTIRETY of it All as All will be formed FROM Her living fully Conscious Light - (energy as we will term it nowadays) - She is the "universal womb" as literally ALL MATERIAL CREATION will be formed FROM this source of Light /Energy all fully under HER domain AS Barbello (first REALM of existance).... In Her INDIVIDUAL aspect, She is named SOFIA and to the much later religion, they will stick with that description from John above, and name Her as simply "Holy Ghost" and try to play down Her status and importance....She is CHRISTS EQUAL AND CONSORT - and actually SHE comes forth FIRST even before Him...WATCH :

I think I will bow out. There is so much that I disagree with, so much of "you are the only one that has the truth" that I don't know where to begin. Suffice to say, I will stay with the "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away" that Jesus said and quoted from the OT.

 

[Deeje]

If the Father is God, and the son is God, and the holy spirit is God....that is three gods. Jesus and his apostles taught about the God of Israel, who was "one" God, not three....not one god with three heads. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Polytheism is the worship of more than one god. As far as I can ascertain, Christendom worships two out of the three gods, as I have never seen anyone mention worshipping the holy spirit.

The apostles were in no doubt who God was....

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 ESV)

There is no mention of the holy spirit here.

Jesus said in prayer...."And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3 ESV)

If Jesus calls his Father "the only true God" without including himself, where is the trinity? Again no mention of holy spirit. Is it not necessary for eternal life to "know" the holy spirit?

There is no trinity in the Bible....there never was. Unless there was some pressing reason why God did not reveal this vital piece of information to his ancient prophets who wrote whole books of the Bible without a single mention of any godhead.

Monotheism means one God...a single entity with one name and one nature. YHWH is the God of Israel. He has no other name. (Exodus 3:13-15) And he shares his godship with no others. (Exodus 20:3)

'Multiple personalities' was classified as a mental illness last time I checked.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Clear; lol - its not a school assignement my friend - its a CONVERSATION - yes..?... Its nto a phd doctorate - its a CONVERSATION - yes..?..There is NO NEED to pick out exact and specific "scripture" - to support my viewpoint - for as said first - the "scripture" of the NEW testamant IS DEFINATELY EDITED FOR A SPECIFIC AGENDA - and that is freely admitted By the religion itself - see the quotes above for clarity....Therefore this NEW testamant is IRRELEVANT to the ORIGINAL testimony and teaching of CHRIST - they have HIJACKED his truth and I have shown that very clearly....

Second point - the OLD testamant - although firm traditional Jewish Hebrew heritage - is indeed - according to Christ - the WRONG GOD, not truly Divine and that one He said most clearly of all, is tricking and deceiving us - for this truth they, murder Him... It is POINTLESS then for me to give you RELIGIOUS scripture as first, it IS NOT ABOUT THE FATHER and there is no denying that when we take account of the ORIGINAL scripture that all this "religious confusion" is TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM - and again THAT IS FREELY ADMITTED by the religion itself who tells us blatantly that the NEW testamant is MANUFACTURED TO ORDER - again go re read the Constantine quotes above for clarity... It is pointless and irrelevant then to CHRIST and His truth - obviously..

And NO FOLKS - He does NOT quote the OT - except to REPLACE the old truth with His NEW truth - such as the "beatitudes" for example - you know - "you have HEARD IT SAID BEFORE" He says - "but NOW I tell you this NEW................" fill in the blanks with various old teaching compared to and replaced now by His NEW teaching...He is not agreeing with the old - He is REPLACING IT !!!

And He does this ALL THE TIME - REPLACED the ENTIRE RELIGIOUS STRUCTURE - you know Folks - to be my student He said - you MUST COME TO HATE YOUR PARENTS !!!!

And you think He is AGREEING with their religion and god..?...WISE UP !!!! I ask YOU (all) a question - totally ignored as you have no answer - I ask again anyway though - any bible adherant follower of Yahweh - tell us - why did they MURDER Christ again..??...

This is why - for the truth He gave freely - No more babbling like pagans - damn those pharisee religiious leaders who actually MISLEAD you - they do no know truth and would not share if they did He warned.....Shun and avoid the temple entirely He said - no more public worship AT ALL - no more useless begging prayers - no grovelling fawning supplications - no more use less repeated catechisms and rituals - avoid it all He said - useless - you DONT NEED the religion He said - leads you astray ALWAYS He warned - come away from it - HATE YOUR PARENTS - they dont know MY truth He said - my Father is NOT their god... and yet - people still seriously think and absoluitely believe without question that He was of and for that "god"..?...

What a JOKE !!! People that believe that - EXPLAIN THESE THINGS HE SAID -please..?...WHAT DOES HE MEAN - "hate your parents"..?...WHAT does HE Mean - "damn the pharisee authority..??...WHY did H esay forget allthat temple malarky..???....

WORK IT OUT Folks - as said - Wise Up - take those relgious blinkers off - they HAVE MISLED YOU !!!

Thats all bad enough isnt it..?..DIRECTLY OPPOSED TO THE ESTABLISHED RELIGION - obviously so - and anyone who sees it differently given all that He said and the repeated scathing criticism He has for this " religious authoirity" MUST be blind just as He warned...lol...

Yer - just His spoken words caused trouble and division -add to that those amazing feats of Divine magik that NO priest of yahweh could even come close to matching - and pretty soon everyone saw Christ as legitimate and religion as bogus - so THIS is why they murdered Him...REAL WORLD SITUATION - not that religious garbage they forced upon us....He said and did things that made Him a DIRECT ENEMY to the established religion - and He was VERY OPEN about this viiewpoint as we see clearly - DAMN the pharisee - HATE your parents - very INSISTANT and DIRECT - ISNT HE...?

It is undeniable to all but the closed religious indoctrinated mind - our mate Christ taught of an entirely new and unknown Sovereign Spirit - not the god of the Hebrews at all - as said - GO READ ORIGINAL JOHN and there is no mistake at all as it laid out step by step for all to see clearly - cororborte it with the OTHER ORIGINAL GOSPELS - you know - the ones that were ACTUALLY written BY the disciples directly - and look, those ARE NOT THE BIBLE for the religion itself banned the ORIGINAL truth as "herasy" and replaced it with this twisted haft truth "bible version".... I was asked for scriptural evidence and I PRESENTED ITS ORIGINAL TRUTH of that original scripture - it doesnt get more authentic than that......

Historical world of historical data/...???....lol....Its not a thesis - its a conversation...lol...but look - historical world data that we ALREADY TAKE AS FACT - is ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR here so there is no need of me to be specific is there..??...For example everyone KNOWS (if they have bare religious knoweldge at all ) that the god of the Herbrews DID forbid ALL FORMS OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE - its OBVIOUS because it is REPEATEDLY STATED throughout the religious "scripture"...Openly stated - yes other gods exist - no, you may have no others before Yahweh....OBVIOUS - Yahweh DIRECTLY forbids all communication with these OTHER GODS !!! Similar - necromancy - communing with SPIRIT Folks - gets them the DEATH PENALTY...Again - obvious - spiritual communion is a complete NO NO according to the god of that religion and you will be MURDERED even for attempting it..

Fast forward to the NEXT religion that this so called god spawned - and again see very clearly - all forms of spiritual communication TOTALLY FORBIDDEN - I dont need to be specific as the whole world knows the history of both the crusades ad the later wholly evil "inquisition" - not to mention of course the ongoing eradication of the "Gnostic heretic"...EVERYTHNG from the use of simple tarot card through to spiritual seances, OUTRIGHT BANNED and the DEATH PENALTY imposed on any and all found doing any "heretical" acts....Not just a simple religious rule - but a fully enforced doctrine - the catholic church as we know spent literally century after century, all their MILITARY MIGHT spent destroying original spiritual truth and REPLACING it with ENFORCED "catholic doctrine" - and again - I dont need to be specific do I as we all know this is historical FACT !!!

Fast forward again to the THIRD religion this so called god spawned - and see again exact same tactics - ALL spiritual practice FORBIDDEN - and again DEATH penalty imposed on any who disobey !!! Indeed this religion takes it further still - not only are we FORBIDDEN to know these "other gods" - but now under Islam we are to be now FORCED TO WORSHIP the "one true god" - who has ACTUALLY been LYING and DECEIVING us all the ways through - clearly so as laid out in this thread - at least it is clear to those who dont have the religious bias or closed indoctrinated mind they teach them to adopt..

Deeje ; Do you not see..???..... You present RELIGIOUS quotes about this god - but Christ already told us the Hebrew god and its heritage is NOT of the Father at all - therefore the religious "scripture" is not the correct scripture at all - bogus twisted truth that is not HIS truth - but truth of Yahweh that is NOT Our Father...

 

[Kenny]

If the Father is God, and the son is God, and the holy spirit is God....that is three gods. Jesus and his apostles taught about the God of Israel, who was "one" God, not three....not one god with three heads. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Polytheism is the worship of more than one god. As far as I can ascertain, Christendom worships two out of the three gods, as I have never seen anyone mention worshipping the holy spirit.

Man is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body... three parts but we don't have three people.

The apostles were in no doubt who God was....

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 ESV)

John 20: 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Yes... they did know.

There is no mention of the holy spirit here.

It is here: Is 48:16 have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”
and here: Matt 12: 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Jesus said in prayer...."And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3 ESV)

Yes... when He came as a man... this is correct.

There is no trinity in the Bible....there never was. Unless there was some pressing reason why God did not reveal this vital piece of information to his ancient prophets who wrote whole books of the Bible without a single mention of any godhead.

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Depends if one is looking for it or not. But I do understand why you would find it difficult to see it.

Multiple personalities' was classified as a mental illness last time I checked.

So when David said "Oh my soul and all that is wishing me, bless the Name of the Lord" - he had a mental illness?

 

[Kenny]

Hi Folks...

Clear; lol - its not a school assignement my friend - its a CONVERSATION - yes..?... Its nto a phd doctorate - its a CONVERSATION - yes..?..There is NO NEED to pick out exact and specific "scripture" - to support my viewpoint - for as said first - the "scripture" of the NEW testamant IS DEFINATELY EDITED FOR A SPECIFIC AGENDA - and that is freely admitted By the religion itself - see the quotes above for clarity....Therefore this NEW testamant is IRRELEVANT to the ORIGINAL testimony and teaching of CHRIST - they have HIJACKED his truth and I have shown that very clearly.....

Hardly

 

[Clear]

PeteC-UK said in post #61 "god" also claims to be the ONLY GOD in existance - and yet it openly admits that yes others DO EXIST but we are FORBIDDEN their knowledge.."

Hi PeteC-UK

Regarding the lack of evidence to support an irrational historical theory

PeteC-UK your claim that "its a CONVERSATION - yes..?" does not justify inability to provide data when it is requested of you. There is an important difference between coherent thought and "communication of data" that supports a premise versus "clever babbling".

Coherent communication using authentic historical data can move a historical premise from mere "opinion" towards firm "historical probability" in a single post. Babbling and incoherent and irrational conversation alone does not cause this same confirming progression. You are at post #90 now. In 30 posts, you remain unable to provide data to support your opinion. Zero. Zip. Nada. The longer you are unable to support your opinion, the greater the feeling that something is amiss and your opinion is simply incorrect.

I did not read beyond the first 5 lines of your last post because your posts consistently lack coherent data to support the question you were asked. Was there any reason that I needed to read any of your posts if I wanted data supporting my specific question you were asked? (Did ANYONE in the forum see data on this specific point that I missed by not having read ANY of PeteC-UKs posts?)

This is not to say you don't have some good ideas buried within the claims, merely that I don't have any reason to read your posts IF it is authentic and coherent historical information that I want. I'm not trying to be snotty or mean. I am trying to explain why your posts are simply irrelevant to those who want authentic and coherent, logical historical religious information.

If we, as individuals, spend our lives on irrelevant or unsupportable historical theories or petty arguments, we cannot gather historical truth and supporting data as efficiently as if we remain rooted in more coherent and authentic streams of data. Do you see the difference? I have to try to stay with better data sources. While you say "There is NO NEED to pick out exact and specific "scripture", the point is that you have been unable to offer even ONE scripture or even a single historical textual example at all to support your opinion in question.

I think theorizing and creating models of what is going on in this existence is fine. I simply think you need to create theories that you can support with data. Like KenS expressed, I honestly don't have any interest in "irrelevant conversation", but rather, my interest lies in genuine historical religious issues.

In any case PeteC-UK, I honestly hope your spiritual journey is happy and and fruitful. Good luck.

Clear
ειτζδρτζω

 

[Deeje]

Man is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body... three parts but we don't have three people.

Actually, man has a spirit (breath) that animates his body so that he exists as a soul. (a living breathing creature) This is what the Bible teaches. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Man IS a soul...he doesn't "have" one.

John 20: 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

This was an expletive from a doubting Thomas. One expression from a man who had professed little faith is hardly something to build a doctrine on.

Yes... they did know.

So are you saying that you put Thomas' words before Paul's? You think they contradict? Paul clearly said that their "one God" was "the Father", not Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It is here: Is 48:16 have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”
and here: Matt 12: 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

In the scriptures I quoted there was mention of Father and son, but no third part of the trinity. There is no mention of a trinity in the NT at all. Father , son and holy spirit all play a role in the life of a Christian, but they are not all three expressions of the same God.

Yes... when He came as a man... this is correct.

Most trinitarians I have spoken to believe that Jesus was 'both fully God and fully man' whilst on earth. If Jesus only worships the Father as his God on earth, (John 20:17) what about in heaven? Is the Father still his God after his return? He is. (Revelation 3:12)

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Yes this was prophetic of the Messiah but you will notice some things on closer inspection that do not indicate that the messiah is God.

First of all, this "government" is the Kingdom of God. Its appointed King is Jesus Christ. He was a wonderful counselor, and he fits the description of a "mighty God"....but NOT am "Almighty" one. That designation is only ever given to the Father. But what about calling Jesus an "Eternal Father"? The term "father" here, according to Strongs, is "ab" and it means..."

1. father of an individual
   
   
2. of God as father of his people
   
   
3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
   
   
4. ancestor"

So it doesn't always mean "father" in the way most people think. It can refer to a "head or founder of a family group or clan". Jesus was certainly an eternal father in that sense, giving eternal life to an entire spiritual family.

And lastly he is called "Prince of Peace"....we all know that a "Prince" is the son of a king.

There is nothing in Isaiah 9:6 to suggest a trinity to Jews.

Depends if one is looking for it or not. But I do understand why you would find it difficult to see it.

The trinity is not in the OT at all. Jews did not worship a triune god. (Deut 6:4) Christendom adopted him from their pagan friends.

Out of the main Abrahamic faiths (Muslims, Jews and Christians) only Christendom has a trinity.

So when David said "Oh my soul and all that is wishing me, bless the Name of the Lord" - he had a mental illness?

I'm sorry...what was that supposed to mean? Are you referring to the title "LORD" here?

These were the words of King David, so he would have used the tetragrammaton, as he freely did in all his Psalms.

From the ASV Psalm 103:1....
"Bless Jehovah, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless his holy name."

I don't know what translation you used, but its not a very good one.

 

[Shiranui117]

Actually, man has a spirit (breath) that animates his body so that he exists as a soul. (a living breathing creature) This is what the Bible teaches. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Man IS a soul...he doesn't "have" one.

In the early times of the OT, yes, but by the time we get to the era of the NT, we see that the term has evolved. The spirit is indeed still the animating principle of the body, but it is also something that exists separate from the body (Matthew 10:28). We also see in Revelation that the souls of those who died were beneath God's altar (Revelation 6:9-11).

The Bible is not a uniform book with only one definition per word. It is a collection of books spanning hundreds of years. We cannot and must not assume that the way the word "soul" is defined in Genesis is how it is defined in the New Testament. This would be to impose a consistency of thought onto the Bible that frankly does not exist. This is why the idea of Sola Scriptura is quite frankly nonsense. It's also why that idea didn't even exist until the 1500's. The Jews aren't Sola Scripturists and never have been, neither are the Muslims. Sola Scriptura is a uniquely Protestant invention, not shared by 75% of Christians. Do you wonder why that is?

Most trinitarians I have spoken to believe that Jesus was 'both fully God and fully man' whilst on earth. If Jesus only worships the Father as his God on earth, (John 20:17) what about in heaven? Is the Father still his God after his return? He is. (Revelation 3:12)

Yes, because He continues to be a man.

The trinity is not in the OT at all. Jews did not worship a triune god. (Deut 6:4) Christendom adopted him from their pagan friends.

You make this claim, but do you have empirical historical evidence that Christians imported the idea from paganism, and did not develop the idea themselves?

 

[Shiranui117]

for Jesus adherents only.

Any Jesus adherent can answer, but the answers should be relevant/and hopefully concise, as considering the thread question.

I am not necessarily going to argue every point made in the thread/if any.

I know that some ''trinitarians'', /the word is not totally specific regarding how it's perceived,,
do not actually think that the Godhood is three 'separate persons'...you can answer as well, if you want

My favorite mathematical explanation is as follows...

Let's say God's Divine Essence is infinite. If the Trinitarian model is false, then it will contradict this premise by stating that any of the three Persons are less than infinite, and its claim that each Person is fully God will be false. Let's begin...

1: God is infinite. Therefore, let x=infinity.
2: God is one God, yet three Persons.
3: God has one Divine Essence, which like God Himself, is infinite.
4: The three persons are distinct from one another. For the sake of argument, let's say that God is divided into three, using mathematical terms.Therefore, let each Person of the Trinity = x/3.
5: Infinity divided by three continues to be infinity. X/3=x.
6: All three Persons of the Trinity are therefore infinite, even though they are divided.
7: As all three Persons of the Trinity continue to be infinite, they therefore all continue to be God.
8: Since each Person continues to be God, each Person of the Trinity continues to fully share the Divine Essence.

Poke holes in the logic if you want. My goal wasn't to provide a sound (i.e. evidence-based) defense of the Trinity, merely to give a valid (i.e. logically consistent) logical argument for it.

 

[Kenny]

Actually, man has a spirit (breath) that animates his body so that he exists as a soul. (a living breathing creature) This is what the Bible teaches. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Man IS a soul...he doesn't "have" one.

I disagree.

Ps 103 - Bless the Lord oh my soul
1 Thes. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This was an expletive from a doubting Thomas. One expression from a man who had professed little faith is hardly something to build a doctrine on.

No... it is throughout the Bible. Multiple scriptures throughout such as James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

So are you saying that you put Thomas' words before Paul's? You think they contradict? Paul clearly said that their "one God" was "the Father", not Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

No. You simply haven't harmonized the scriptures and taking things in context. As Paul said in Phil 2:5 as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

In the scriptures I quoted there was mention of Father and son, but no third part of the trinity. There is no mention of a trinity in the NT at all. Father , son and holy spirit all play a role in the life of a Christian, but they are not all three expressions of the same God.

And I quoted that there was. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the HolyGhost: and these three are one.

And there are so many more. I'm sure you will have reasoned why these are deserving and convinced yourself that they aren't what they say they are... however, in has been accepted throughout the millennia.

Most trinitarians I have spoken to believe that Jesus was 'both fully God and fully man' whilst on earth. If Jesus only worships the Father as his God on earth, (John 20:17) what about in heaven? Is the Father still his God after his return? He is. (Revelation 3:12)

I know you want our finite minds to fully comprehend an infinite God, but somewhere we will always go tilt. If only God receives worship then why does the Father let the Son receive worship? That in and of itself is proof enough.

Let me ask you a question... Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?

Yes this was prophetic of the Messiah but you will notice some things on closer inspection that do not indicate that the messiah is God.

Yes, you would have to readdress that to fit your position. However, Emanuel, God with us, makes it very clear. I have to apply no pushups to make it fit. It just fits.

First of all, this "government" is the Kingdom of God. Its appointed King is Jesus Christ. He was a wonderful counselor, and he fits the description of a "mighty God"....but NOT am "Almighty" one. That designation is only ever given to the Father. But what about calling Jesus an "Eternal Father"? The term "father" here, according to Strongs, is "ab" and it means..."

1. father of an individual
   
   
2. of God as father of his people
   
   
3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
   
   
4. ancestor"

So it doesn't always mean "father" in the way most people think. It can refer to a "head or founder of a family group or clan". Jesus was certainly an eternal father in that sense, giving eternal life to an entire spiritual family.

And lastly he is called "Prince of Peace"....we all know that a "Prince" is the son of a king.

There is nothing in Isaiah 9:6 to suggest a trinity to Jews.



The trinity is not in the OT at all. Jews did not worship a triune god. (Deut 6:4) Christendom adopted him from their pagan friends.

Out of the main Abrahamic faiths (Muslims, Jews and Christians) only Christendom has a trinity.

I disagree... notice how much you had to explain to make it work. There is but one God and therefore cannot be the God as father of their people.

I'm sorry...what was that supposed to mean? Are you referring to the title "LORD" here?

These were the words of King David, so he would have used the tetragrammaton, as he freely did in all his Psalms.

From the ASV Psalm 103:1....
"Bless Jehovah, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless his holy name."

I don't know what translation you used, but its not a very good one.

We don't worship three God's but one.
Elohim (plural) is one Gd (singular)
Trinity. Isaiah 48:12,16-17:
Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.

It's there if you want to see it.

 

[Clear]

1) KenS said : “Man is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body...” (post 88)

2) Deeje said : Actually, man has a spirit (breath) that animates his body so that he exists as a soul. (a living breathing creature) This is what the Bible teaches. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Man IS a soul...he doesn't "have" one. (post 91)

3) KenS said : “I disagree.” (post 94)




The base concept of a cognizant spirit separate from the body it inhabits
Though my model for the trinity is different than KenS’ (I think they are separate beings), I think KenS' point that the spirit ("soul" in his parlance) within man is different than the body is quite correct in context of early Judeo-Christian interpretation. The early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses are clear in their descriptions in the belief that an “unembodied spirit/soul” existed before it was placed into a mortal body and a “disembodied spirit/soul” exists upon death of the body and before resurrection.


Historical semantics
I think Shiranui117 (post 92) offered a wise reminder that historical semantics and differing uses of the word “spirit” and “soul” are involved. The concept of a principle of life, that is cognizant and separate from the body it animates permeates the early Judeo-Christian literature, regardless of whether one calls it a “soul” or a “spirit” or “the breath of life” or any other euphemism.


Textual examples of the early belief that the spirit is separate from the body
Ancient Judeo-Christian usages of these terms can tell us much regarding what they meant Christians inside the early Christian religious movement. For example, In the popular Apocalypse of Sedrach God sends for the spirit/soul of the Prophet Sedrach. God says, “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The messenger says to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.”.... give me your most desired soul [spirit]. The apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5. In this case, the use of “spirit” or “soul” is translator dependent as much as textually dependent.

The apocalyptic literature of the Jews and Early Christians are by their very definition, full of reference to visions of heaven and unembodied spirits of men and women there. For example, in the apocalypse of Abraham, he see’s the vision of pre-creation heaven and the souls there : “And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 - “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?”......Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?”.... “ And the angel explains regarding these spirits : “those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5; Whether one calls these cognisant spirits by the term “spirit” or “souls” (or by other terms) does not affect the base concept of their existence. I do not think we should be caught up in semantics so that we miss the ancient Christian theology.

The theology has clear textual expositions of this doctrine of the ancient Jews and christians. “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

In this ancient model, when Jesus says, “into thy hands I commend my spirit” (luke 23:46) upon the death of his body it makes sense that his spirit is cognisant and accomplishing further tasks given him by his Father as the ancient Judeo-Christian decensus literature describes.

The concept of an unembodied spirit being placed into a body was often symbolized as a clothing just as the reception of a physical body at resurrection was a type of being "clothed". For examples : “And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory. And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ... And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10

This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”

The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath within its sheath.” (Those who know a bit of hebrew” should recognize “The clothes of my glory” as a similar, transparent Hebraism)...

Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),

Regarding the conflicting uses of the terms for “spirit” and “soul”
Though I might call an unembodied spirit a “spirit” and KenS might call it a “soul”, this is (to me, and in this context), of less importance than the theological concept and model the early Judeo-Christians had for God’s plan for these spirits, the reason for mortality and it’s ultimate outcome.

Clear
ειτζνεειω

 

[Kenny]

1) KenS said : “Man is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body...” (post 88)


The base concept of a cognizant spirit separate from the body it inhabits
Though my model for the trinity is different than KenS’ (I think they are separate beings), I think KenS' point that the spirit ("soul" in his parlance) within man is different than the body is quite correct in context of early Judeo-Christian interpretation. The early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses are clear in their descriptions in the belief that an “unembodied spirit/soul” existed before it was placed into a mortal body and a “disembodied spirit/soul” exists upon death of the body and before resurrection.
Clear
ειτζνεειω

Although your explanations was quite extensive and good in so many points, I find it necessary to clarify my position so that my explanation is clear, pardon the pun, since you haven't succinctly explained my position.

My position is that the spirit and soul are indeed one but still separate. The word "heart", in scripture, can refer to the soul, the spirit or both--and context determines which part it is speaking of. Scripture references provided upon request.

To be exact, 1 Thes 5:23 lists them separately and distinctly as spirit, soul and body.

The spirit, according to John 3, is what is "born again" when one gives their life to Jesus. (I speak, of course, in context of Christianity. Salvation is a gift and not by works (Eph 2:8,9; Romans 10:8-13) et al.

And yet there is the salvation of the soul (mind, will and emotions) that is an ongoing process as determined by James 1:23 "Receive with meekness the engrafted word of God that is able to save your soul". This is a process of renewing one's mind from old thinking to God's way of thinking and seeing things through His perspective. Renewing one's mind increases ones ability to operate the faith that He gives us. (Rom 10:17)

Renewing the mind can be found in Romans 12:2 "And be ye not conformed (pressured) to this world but be ye transformed (metamorphosis) by the renewing of the mind". This is where our mind, will and emotions are transformed.

Therefore, i would not hold that the spirit and the soul are the same although inseparable as the makeup of the eternal person that we are.

Of course, if someone doesn't agree with me, it isn't an issue that would separate believers.

Hope this is clear,

In Christ,

Ken

 

[Deeje]

Actually, man has a spirit (breath) that animates his body so that he exists as a soul. (a living breathing creature) This is what the Bible teaches. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Man IS a soul...he doesn't "have" one.

In the early times of the OT, yes, but by the time we get to the era of the NT, we see that the term has evolved.

"Evolved"? Seriously? How can truth "evolve"? It can be progressively revealed but it cannot change completely. The Jews had no belief in a spiritual part of man that departed from the body at death to go somewhere else and experience a conscious existence. That whole idea comes from the Greeks, not the Bible.

Death to Jew meant "sleeping" in an unconscious state whilst awaiting a full bodily resurrection. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
In all the resurrections spoken about in the NT, all were restored back to this life, and reunited with their families.

Where were they before they were raised back to life? Jesus tells us in connection with his friend Lazarus.....

John 11:11-14:
"Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, “Our friend Laz′arus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Laz′arus is dead" (RSV)

The spirit is indeed still the animating principle of the body, but it is also something that exists separate from the body (Matthew 10:28).

You are mistaken. Matt 10:28 is not talking about the spirit, it is speaking about the soul. You must understand that these terms are NOT interchangeable. They mean two entirely different things.

The original-language terms for "SOUL" (Heb., neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ]; Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.It is never spoken about as a disembodied entity that inhabits a body. It is the entire person.

Matthew 10:28 says....
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

What are we to make of this? In a cursory reading the meaning is not clear, but look at what it really says....and understand what these words mean if you have no belief in an immortal soul. These words were said to Jews with a Jewish understanding of life and death. The soul is the whole living breathing person. That person cannot exist without a body. At death, the soul (person) dies. (Ezek 18:4) Humans can take a life, but they cannot prevent a restoration of that life in the resurrection. We are told to fear the one who can obliterate a person from existence, "destroying" their lives completely without the hope of ever living again.

"Hell" in this scripture is "hades" (Heb "sheol") which is the place where we all go according to Ecclesiastes 9:10. It is the common grave.

So it is not the Bible that paints a false picture of life and death, it is the false human interpretation of the original words that skew the meaning.

We also see in Revelation that the souls of those who died were beneath God's altar (Revelation 6:9-11).

These are not disembodied souls but the innocent "lives" that were lost because these ones were followers of Christ.
They are no more real than the blood of Abel that was crying out for justice when his brother murdered him. (Gen 4:8-11)

The Bible is not a uniform book with only one definition per word. It is a collection of books spanning hundreds of years. We cannot and must not assume that the way the word "soul" is defined in Genesis is how it is defined in the New Testament.

So the author of the Bible oversees the writing of a book that has no uniformity? Don't we read books by certain authors because we love the uniform way in which their novels are constructed? Don't we count on that uniformity of writing style to keep us reading their works? The changes that humans made to the meanings of words in the Bible is dangerous. By deviating from their original meanings they have skewed the Bible's whole message....leaving people very confused.

This would be to impose a consistency of thought onto the Bible that frankly does not exist.

I beg to differ. It is the way that man has translated those words that caused the inconsistency. God does not change.....humans do. God is consistent in his teachings but man had deviated onto a different path and altered the Bible's entire message.

This is why the idea of Sola Scriptura is quite frankly nonsense. It's also why that idea didn't even exist until the 1500's. The Jews aren't Sola Scripturists and never have been

Who told you that? Jesus used the scriptures extensively in his teachings. So did the apostles. In fact when any issue arose Jesus always referred back to God's word, which he said the Pharisees had made "invalid" because of their teachings that had deviated from the scriptures into personal interpretation. He called that "leaven" or corruption. I see that the churches have followed in their footsteps.

neither are the Muslims. Sola Scriptura is a uniquely Protestant invention, not shared by 75% of Christians. Do you wonder why that is?

I would argue that the 75% are not really Christians. I would also argue that a good percentage of the others haven't got it right either. (Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 13:24)

Jesus had it right when he said "It is written"....he always relied on the word of God for everything he taught.

Yes, because He continues to be a man.

You believe that humans can exist in the spirit realm? Jesus was not raised as a man...he was raised as a spirit. (1 Pet 3:18) Do you doubt that?

If humans can live in heaven, why didn't God just put them there to begin with? What is the purpose of this life with all its trials?

You make this claim, but do you have empirical historical evidence that Christians imported the idea from paganism, and did not develop the idea themselves?

Multiplicities of gods are a hallmark of pagan religions. Trinities of gods are seen in many cultures, but never seen in Islam or Judaism. The only Abrahamic religion to embrace a triune God is Christendom.

You see no similarity?

 

[Deeje]

Ps 103 - Bless the Lord oh my soul

"Old King Cole was a merry old soul".....are we talking about something inside "old King Cole" here or are we speaking about the personality of the man himself?
If I speak about a "poor old soul" who was walking down the street homeless, who am I speaking about?
The soul is the person.

1 Thes. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You do realize that Paul was not speaking about individuals in this verse but about the whole congregation of Christ's disciples. The "spirit" that they showed, the "soul" or life of the Congregation and them as a "body" of believers.

No... it is throughout the Bible. Multiple scriptures throughout such as James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Do you remember the old "SOS" in Morse Code? What did it stand for? "Save Our Souls".....it meant "Save Our Lives" James 1 :21 quoted above means the same thing.

No. You simply haven't harmonized the scriptures and taking things in context. As Paul said in Phil 2:5 as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Or if you read that verse in other translations you will see that the meaning can be skewed very easily. Whatever translation you are using, it is not very accurate. It is biased in its translation and leading you to wrong conclusions.

"Have this mind among yourselves, which was in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." (RSVCE)

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men" (ASV)

"Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance" (NASB)

These translations capture the true essence of what Paul said.

As "the Word" Jesus was existing in God's "form" in heaven. What "form" was that? In heaven there are only spirit beings who all have the same "form".
The Bible clearly says "God is a spirit", (John 4:24) so he too has spirit "form". Jesus and all the angels are spirits so all exist in spirit "form".

"Equality with God was NOT something to be grasped". You see, Jesus rejected the concept of being an equal with his Father. (Exodus 20:3)

 

[Deeje]

And I quoted that there was. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the HolyGhost: and these three are one.

I am really cringing now.....first of all, there is no "Holy Ghost" in the Bible. The word "ghost" is of German origin ("geist") and it means "spirit".

And FYI 1 John 5:7, 8 is a later addition, not in the original text....the original reads..."For there are three witness bearers: 8 the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

And there are so many more. I'm sure you will have reasoned why these are deserving and convinced yourself that they aren't what they say they are... however, in has been accepted throughout the millennia.

Yes, accepted by an apostate church that has never taught the truth of God's word from its beginnings. This is not the church that Jesus founded...it is the "weeds" that he warned us about. Calling yourself a Christian, doesn't make you one. Jesus knows who is a true disciple and who has swallowed the lies. "Many" are going to be shocked when they are rejected by their "Lord". (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7: 21-23)

I know you want our finite minds to fully comprehend an infinite God, but somewhere we will always go tilt. If only God receives worship then why does the Father let the Son receive worship? That in and of itself is proof enough.

You have swallowed the lie. You need to check your facts. The son is NOT worshipped in the scriptures at all.
And if you do a study on the word " pro·sky·neʹo" you will see that it doesn't always mean "worship" as we would give it to God. It also means "the act of bowing, kneeling, prostrating the body, or making some other gesture to betoken submission; or simply the paying of respect." It adequately translates the Hebrew hish·ta·chawahʹ and the Greek pro·sky·neʹo in many cases. Jesus said we must worship God "alone" (Luke 4:8) so "obeisance" is the act of bowing in respect to someone of high station. It is what the magi gave to Jesus. They did not worship him as a god but rendered respect to him as a child of royalty....a future "King of the Jews." (Matthew 2:2)

Let me ask you a question... Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?

This expression pertains to the Father alone.

"While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12." (Insight Volume 2)

Yes, you would have to readdress that to fit your position. However, Emanuel, God with us, makes it very clear. I have to apply no pushups to make it fit. It just fits.

Was God "with" Israel? Did he need a mediator? Yes....Moses. Did Moses need to be God to fill that role?

Is God "with" Christians? Does he need a mediator? Yes...Jesus. Does Jesus need to be God to fill that role?
Same answer to both questions.

I disagree... notice how much you had to explain to make it work. There is but one God and therefore cannot be the God as father of their people.

To a Jew, no explanation is necessary...to those who have been conditioned by Christendom to believe in a triune god, there is much explaining to do.

We don't worship three God's but one.

I keep hearing this, but do the math.....1+1+1 doesn't = 1. This is a god who talks to himself.

Elohim (plural) is one Gd (singular)

"In its articles on Jehovah, The Imperial Bible-Dictionary nicely illustrates the difference between ʼElo·himʹ (God) and Jehovah. Of the name Jehovah, it says: “It is everywhere a proper name, denoting the personal God and him only; whereas Elohim partakes more of the character of a common noun, denoting usually, indeed, but not necessarily nor uniformly, the Supreme. . . . The Hebrew may say the Elohim, the true God, in opposition to all false gods; but he never says the Jehovah, for Jehovah is the name of the true God only. He says again and again my God . . . ; but never my Jehovah, for when he says my God, he means Jehovah. He speaks of the God of Israel, but never of the Jehovah of Israel, for there is no other Jehovah. He speaks of the living God, but never of the living Jehovah, for he cannot conceive of Jehovah as other than living.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn, London, 1874, Vol. I, p. 856." (Insight Volume 1)

Trinity. Isaiah 48:12,16-17:
Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.

Trinity? Where?
God is addressing "Jacob" or "Israel". He is speaking about himself....

"Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.

The next part Isaiah is talking about himself.

And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

He was the one Jehovah sent along with the power of his spirit to deliver his message to Israel.

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel,
“I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you in the way you should go."

Its all about knowing what the whole Bible teaches, not just selected verses that appear to say what we want to believe.

It's there if you want to see it.

Anything is "there" if you want to see it.....even an invisible trinity.

 

[Shiranui117]

"Evolved"? Seriously? How can truth "evolve"? It can be progressively revealed but it cannot change completely. The Jews had no belief in a spiritual part of man that departed from the body at death to go somewhere else and experience a conscious existence.

The Israelites also believed that there were many Gods, that Yahweh was simply one god among many. That whole idea comes from the Greeks, not the Bible.[]

Death to Jew meant "sleeping" in an unconscious state whilst awaiting a full bodily resurrection. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
In all the resurrections spoken about in the NT, all were restored back to this life, and reunited with their families.

You also have to account for the fact that the ancient Israelites didn't believe in any kind of resurrection of the dead. Once you were dead, you were dead, and that was it. The only immortality you had was through your descendants--your name and your legacy carried on, but that was it. A belief in the resurrection of the dead didn't come about until after the Babylonian Captivity, when the Jews adopted the idea from the Zoroastrians. It is also from the Zoroastrians that the Jews adopted the idea of a Messiah, a chosen one sent by God who would save the world, judge the living and the dead, and usher in Paradise.

Where were they before they were raised back to life? Jesus tells us in connection with his friend Lazarus.....

John 11:11-14:
"Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, “Our friend Laz′arus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Laz′arus is dead" (RSV)

This already marks a noticeable change from the earlier Israelite view, as during Jesus' time, death was seen only as a kind of sleep that you would eventually be woken up from at the Resurrection of the Dead.

You are mistaken. Matt 10:28 is not talking about the spirit, it is speaking about the soul. You must understand that these terms are NOT interchangeable. They mean two entirely different things.

Then what's the difference?

The original-language terms for "SOUL" (Heb., neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ]; Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.It is never spoken about as a disembodied entity that inhabits a body. It is the entire person.

Matthew 10:28 says....
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

What are we to make of this? In a cursory reading the meaning is not clear, but look at what it really says....and understand what these words mean if you have no belief in an immortal soul. These words were said to Jews with a Jewish understanding of life and death. The soul is the whole living breathing person. That person cannot exist without a body. At death, the soul (person) dies. (Ezek 18:4) Humans can take a life, but they cannot prevent a restoration of that life in the resurrection. We are told to fear the one who can obliterate a person from existence, "destroying" their lives completely without the hope of ever living again.

You're contradicting yourself. If the soul dies along with the body, then if you kill the body, you also kill the soul. God bringing the soul back to life does not negate the fact that the soul was previously dead. If the soul ceases to exist at death (being the whole living breathing person), then yes, we can destroy their lives completely and obliterate them from existence. God simply has the ability to bring that person back into existence.

So just by taking your definition of soul and looking at the ramifications, we can automatically tell that Jesus clearly means something different. Otherwise, if what you say is actually accurate, Jesus would never have told us not to worry about those who can kill our bodies, but not our souls. If our bodies are killed, but not our souls, it must logically follow that our souls can survive bodily death. There is simply no other way to interpret the passage logically.

So the author of the Bible oversees the writing of a book that has no uniformity? Don't we read books by certain authors because we love the uniform way in which their novels are constructed? Don't we count on that uniformity of writing style to keep us reading their works?

The Bible has a uniform writing style? Hmm, let's see about that...
-Within one book, we have two different creation stories, with one being very down-to-earth and showing a very physical God, and the other being a very literary, eloquent rendition. This book also has God making physical appearances several times. It and several other books of the Tanakh are essentially the sagas of God's interaction with certain families of people within the Fertile Crescent.
-We have books that pretty much do nothing but lay out rules and regulations, and give a tally of how many Israelites there were.
-We have books chronicling the rise and fall of kingdoms and kings.
-We have a book that is a love song full of imagery.
-We have a book of lyrical prayers.
-We have books filled with nothing but proverbs and metaphoric imagery.
-We have books written by and about prophets from various walks of life, each talking about God in a different way, giving various warnings and admonitions.

I wouldn't really call any of that a consistent writing style. I mean, try comparing Song of Songs to Numbers, or Genesis to Psalms. They're all very different books, often written for different purposes, written by different people, with different audiences in mind, operating different sets of viewpoints and presuppositions about the world, God and humanity.

The changes that humans made to the meanings of words in the Bible is dangerous. By deviating from their original meanings they have skewed the Bible's whole message....leaving people very confused.

Were these changes only made after the Bible was written, or can we see developments in Israelite/Jewish/Christian thought patterns as we go down through the centuries over which the Bible's compositional history spans?

I beg to differ. It is the way that man has translated those words that caused the inconsistency. God does not change.....humans do. God is consistent in his teachings but man had deviated onto a different path and altered the Bible's entire message.

So translation is the issue? If we all learn Hebrew and Koine Greek, we'll be all set to go?

Who told you that? Jesus used the scriptures extensively in his teachings. So did the apostles. In fact when any issue arose Jesus always referred back to God's word, which he said the Pharisees had made "invalid" because of their teachings that had deviated from the scriptures into personal interpretation. He called that "leaven" or corruption. I see that the churches have followed in their footsteps.

Sure, they used the Scriptures a lot. But where do we see that they used Scriptures alone? Do they use Scripture to back up every single one of their points? No, they don't. Jesus and the Apostles also used logic, parable and metaphor to make certain points. Is all Scripture useful for instruction? Yes. But that verse doesn't say that Scripture alone is useful for instruction.

I would argue that the 75% are not really Christians. I would also argue that a good percentage of the others haven't got it right either. (Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 13:24)

Jesus had it right when he said "It is written"....he always relied on the word of God for everything he taught.

Not really. Give all His parables another read. Does he cite Scripture every time he makes a point? No, He doesn't.

You believe that humans can exist in the spirit realm? Jesus was not raised as a man...he was raised as a spirit. (1 Pet 3:18) Do you doubt that?

No, I don't doubt it. I also don't doubt the Scriptures which prove that Jesus is risen bodily as well, and not just spiritually.

Matthew 28:
8 And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Luke 24:
36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your n]">[n]hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

So, just from the two Scriptures above, we see that Jesus' body is tangible, as people can literally grab Him. And we also know that He has a body, because he ate right in front of the Apostles. He wasn't just a disembodied spirit, as you suppose. He was fully resurrected, in the body as well as in the spirit.

If humans can live in heaven, why didn't God just put them there to begin with? What is the purpose of this life with all its trials?

That is an entirely different question that opens up an entirely different can of worms. At this point you're asking what the point of life on Earth is in the first place. Nevermind putting us in Heaven from the get-go, why not just make us incapable of sinning in the first place?

Multiplicities of gods are a hallmark of pagan religions. Trinities of gods are seen in many cultures, but never seen in Islam or Judaism. The only Abrahamic religion to embrace a triune God is Christendom.

You see no similarity?

Not any similarity to be worried, honestly. Even leaving aside the Trinity, many of the attributes ascribed to God are already found in religions that predate both Judaism and Christianity. Atenism in Egypt, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism to name a few--each of them have an all-powerful, benevolent God who fights against evil and the forces of darkness, shepherds the faithful, creates the world and gives life to all that lives within it, caring for every single creature. Here, have a look at these Wiki pages, and tell me that these don't sound exactly like Yahweh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

Just because there were deities similar to Yahweh that predated Judaism, are we therefore going to assume that Jews stole Yahweh from the Egyptians, Persians and Hindus? By no means. By the same token, we should not assume that Christians stole the Trinity from other religions, just because they thought of it before our religion was founded.