jesus and prophecies .. strange! .. but true

[Pegg]

Pegg, please don't stop now..

how long do we have to wait?

it's a very simple question.

as long as it takes.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I've been over this subject and discussed it with JW's who went through it, and what happened in 1975 was not due to information printed by the governing body... it wasnt the watchtower or any of our literature promoting the idea that 1975 would mark the end. Unfortunately, it was speculation among indiviudals within the organization that caused it.

The information coming from the Governing body by means of the WT articles did not promote the idea but spoke of using caution with regard to putting dates on things.....

In 1968 an article was published about bible chronology...by then, there was already talk of 1975 as being a special year, but the article stated this:

Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? WT 1968

WHAT about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam’s creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion.
2 But wait! How do we know their calculations are correct? What basis is there for saying Adam was created nearly 5,993 years ago?
by the end of the article, the brothers state this: Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time


I believe that the Governing Body is most certainly inspired by God...they are christs followers, they adhere to the scriptures and to Christs directions and for that reason they are blessed by Jehovah with his holy spirit. That doesnt mean that God gives them 100% complete knowledge of all things, and they admit that openly.

Thanks for the info on that. But what about the 1914 prediction? People gave away their belongings for that as well I believe

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for the info on that. But what about the 1914 prediction? People gave away their belongings for that as well I believe

yep, and that one did come from brother Russell (JW's founder) He was the head of the group of Bible Students and he was responsible for what was published.

Back in the late 1800's, they expected the year 1914 to mark a significant turning point for Jerusalem, since the prophecy had said that ‘Jerusalem would be trodden down’ until the Gentile Times were fulfilled. When they saw 1914 drawing close and yet they had not died as humans and been ‘caught up in the clouds’ to meet the Lord—in harmony with earlier expectations—they earnestly hoped that their change might take place at the end of the Gentile Times.—1 Thess. 4:17.
As the years passed and they examined and reexamined the Scriptures, their faith in the prophecies remained strong, and they did not hold back from stating what they expected to occur.

But wrong expectations did not mean that they were acting as 'prophets'.... they simply didnt understand the scriptures correctly back then. As things panned out, they realised their mistakes and adjusted their thinking.

 

[savagewind]

I believe that the Governing Body is most certainly inspired by God...they are christs followers, they adhere to the scriptures and to Christs directions and for that reason they are blessed by Jehovah with his holy spirit. That doesnt mean that God gives them 100% complete knowledge of all things, and they admit that openly.

This is something I do not understand. The Jehovah's Witnesses seem to know somehow that there is no one else and no other group who "are inspired by God and Christ's followers and who adhere to scriptures and to Christ's direction". The witnesses believe they are "blessed by Jehovah with his holy spirit" even though sometimes they are wrong.

Why are other people not blessed by Jehovah with His Holy Spirit? Are they wrong about the wrong things?

It seems like to me that to be approved for everlasting life like the witnesses teach one must be wrong about the right things. If someone is wrong about the wrong things according to the leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses they must leave and their hope is then neutralized. It does not seem fair.

In other words how are other people who are not right 100% so wrong that it is said they will die in the Judgement? Logic says they will die because they do not agree with the wrongness the witnesses agree on.

 

[Pegg]

This is something I do not understand. The Jehovah's Witnesses seem to know somehow that there is no one else and no other group who "are inspired by God and Christ's followers and who adhere to scriptures and to Christ's direction". The witnesses believe they are "blessed by Jehovah with his holy spirit" even though sometimes they are wrong.

Why are other people not blessed by Jehovah with His Holy Spirit? Are they wrong about the wrong things?

It seems like to me that to be approved for everlasting life like the witnesses teach one must be wrong about the right things. If someone is wrong about the wrong things according to the leadership of the Jehovah's Witnesses they must leave and their hope is then neutralized. It does not seem fair.

In other words how are other people who are not right 100% so wrong that it is said they will die in the Judgement? Logic says they will die because they do not agree with the wrongness the witnesses agree on.

God approves people based on their actions and their trust in his word.

How many denominations uphold the scriptures as truth? How many choose to teach their own teachings and doctrines over what is found in the scriptures? The fact that they do this puts them at odds with God because he has given them his word yet they have created their own word.

how can he bless them with his spirit and understanding when they reject his word?

 

[savagewind]

God approves people based on their actions and their trust in his word.

How many denominations uphold the scriptures as truth? How many choose to teach their own teachings and doctrines over what is found in the scriptures? The fact that they do this puts them at odds with God because he has given them his word yet they have created their own word.

how can he bless them with his spirit and understanding when they reject his word?

Oh I don't know. The Word says "no one knows the date and the hour". JWs "chose to teach their own teaching", didn't they?

It's all about translation, interpretation and understanding. You believe you have the correct translation, interpretation and understanding but at the same time say no one is 100% right. Do you see ambiguity is present with you? It is also present with every one. How are you different?

 

[Pegg]

Oh I don't know. The Word says "no one knows the date and the hour". JWs "chose to teach their own teaching", didn't they?

It's all about translation, interpretation and understanding. You believe you have the correct translation, interpretation and understanding but at the same time say no one is 100% right. Do you see ambiguity is present with you? It is also present with every one. How are you different?

how is the WT different? hmmmm well, for one they stick to the bible doctrines

thats why they dont teach that hell is a literal place of fire and torment. They dont teach that Jesus is God, they dont teach that Mary is the Queen of Heaven or Mother of God, they dont teach that the holy spirit is a person (the 3rd person of the trinity)
Nor do they teach that the soul is separate from the body, or that a place of pergatory exists, or that a person can pay the church money (indulgences) to be absolved of sins, or that a person will be punished by God for questioning a priest
or that our forgiveness comes through priests, or that popes are the successors of the Apostles, or that everyone is going to heaven when they die and the earth will be destroyed, or that christians dont have to do anything more then believe to be saved, or that the preaching is only for the clergy and every other christian must remain mute

do you know what the bible teaches? Im very surprised if you say you dont know these things.

 

[savagewind]

how is the WT different? hmmmm well, for one they stick to the bible doctrines

thats why they dont teach that hell is a literal place of fire and torment. They dont teach that Jesus is God, they dont teach that Mary is the Queen of Heaven or Mother of God, they dont teach that the holy spirit is a person (the 3rd person of the trinity)
Nor do they teach that the soul is separate from the body, or that a place of pergatory exists, or that a person can pay the church money (indulgences) to be absolved of sins, or that a person will be punished by God for questioning a priest
or that our forgiveness comes through priests, or that popes are the successors of the Apostles, or that everyone is going to heaven when they die and the earth will be destroyed, or that christians dont have to do anything more then believe to be saved, or that the preaching is only for the clergy and every other christian must remain mute

do you know what the bible teaches? Im very surprised if you say you dont know these things.

Peg, I do not say the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a great school. They are. It is not wrong that they exist. They are wrong to teach they ALONE exist. OK?

 

[Pegg]

Peg, I do not say the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a great school. They are. It is not wrong that they exist. They are wrong to teach they ALONE exist. OK?

How many organized religions did God deal with in Ancient times? Apart from Isreal, who else were his organization under his guidance?

 

[savagewind]

How many organized religions did God deal with in Ancient times? Apart from Israel, who else were his organization under his guidance?

No. This is parting from the discussion. Jehovah was making a way for the birth of His Son. One Son, one way. YHWH did not need to prepare many ways for His Son to be born. Just one. One seed. One field.

 

[Pegg]

No. This is parting from the discussion. Jehovah was making a way for the birth of His Son. One Son, one way. YHWH did not need to prepare many ways for His Son to be born. Just one. One seed. One field.

and using the same logic, once his Son had arrived, he still only had one Son who would teach mankind how to return to God

One Son, One Son who would teach his own congregation. One congregation of followers.

 

[savagewind]

and using the same logic, once his Son had arrived, he still only had one Son who would teach mankind how to return to God

One Son, One Son who would teach his own congregation. One congregation of followers.

Yes. I do not disagree. Ephesians 4:4-6.
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called one Lord, one faith, one baptism;one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.




But you have two lords, don't you? The other one you call "the faithful and discreet slave".

 

[Pegg]

Yes. I do not disagree. Ephesians 4:4-6.
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called one Lord, one faith, one baptism;one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


But you have two lords, don't you? The other one you call "the faithful and discreet slave".

No, I certainly dont view the faithful and descreet slave as my lord. They act today, in the same way the apostles acted in the first century... as a means of teaching and direction for our christian work. Without their guidance, the first century congregations would not have been started up... and likewise, today, without the faithful and discreet slave organizing our preaching activity, I would not be able to fulfill my christian responsibility. They provide a means and an outlet for our Christian activity.

 

[james2ko]

prophecies that came true anybody?

How about:

Deu 28:37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the LORD will drive you.

Jer 24:9 I will deliver them to trouble into all the kingdoms of the earth, for their harm, to be a reproach and a byword, a taunt and a curse, in all places where I shall drive them.​

God foretold the nation of Israel would become a byword. The Jews have been taunted throughout all nations and have been driven throughout the world just as God said He would. This prophecy has been receiving fulfillment for the past 2500 years! Not once have the Jews been able to break it. Not once have the Gentile nations been able to exterminate the Jews to thwart the prophecy. Why did God prophesy this would happen to the Jew, but to no Gentile nation mentioned anywhere in Bible prophecy-unless God knew the history of the world in advance?

By comparison, let's take a look at what God said would happen to Egypt:

Eze 29:15-16 It shall be the lowliest of kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations anymore. 16 No longer shall it be the confidence of the house of Israel, but will remind them of their iniquity when they turned to follow them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD."​

Egypt since then has never again been a superpower. But even more interesting is Egypt's prophetic dichotomy with the fate of the Jews. Egypt was not to be scattered among the nations and they were not to become a byword. The fate of the Jews was entirely different from Egypt. But what God foretold has happened to both.

 

[savagewind]

No, I certainly dont view the faithful and descreet slave as my lord. They act today, in the same way the apostles acted in the first century... as a means of teaching and direction for our christian work. Without their guidance, the first century congregations would not have been started up... and likewise, today, without the faithful and discreet slave organizing our preaching activity, I would not be able to fulfill my christian responsibility. They provide a means and an outlet for our Christian activity.

That is not what we are talking about. I thought we were taking about how they teach they are the ONLY way to "fulfill [ones] Christian responsibility". And they do act as lord for it is they who determine who no longer is a Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Xchristian]

How about:

Deu 28:37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the LORD will drive you.

Jer 24:9 I will deliver them to trouble into all the kingdoms of the earth, for their harm, to be a reproach and a byword, a taunt and a curse, in all places where I shall drive them.​

God foretold the nation of Israel would become a byword. The Jews have been taunted throughout all nations and have been driven throughout the world just as God said He would. This prophecy has been receiving fulfillment for the past 2500 years! Not once have the Jews been able to break it. Not once have the Gentile nations been able to exterminate the Jews to thwart the prophecy. Why did God prophesy this would happen to the Jew, but to no Gentile nation mentioned anywhere in Bible prophecy-unless God knew the history of the world in advance?

I don't really believe a word of all that.

First: This was written after the Davidic kingdom was established, so it's a prediction in reverse!!

Second: If you read history well, or at least listen to the CNN you will realise that Israel is now a state not a kingdom, the ruler is a priminister, elected by the people, not a descendant of king David as the bible would prefer to happen.

By comparison, let's take a look at what God said would happen to Egypt:

Eze 29:15-16 It shall be the lowliest of kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations anymore. 16 No longer shall it be the confidence of the house of Israel, but will remind them of their iniquity when they turned to follow them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD."

​

Egypt since then has never again been a superpower. But even more interesting is Egypt's prophetic dichotomy with the fate of the Jews. Egypt was not to be scattered among the nations and they were not to become a byword. The fate of the Jews was entirely different from Egypt. But what God foretold has happened to both.

Same problem, read history well, this was written after the last Egyptian dynasty, when Egypt was weak enough to make backward predictions and still feel happy about it.

 

[Xchristian]

I wonder if Pegg or any other member will ever answer my question.

Moses said to judge the prophecy maker -namely jesus here-, how long do we have to wait before making judgement? ... people have died in the million guys, they disobeyed Moses!!!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

How about:

Deu 28:37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the LORD will drive you.

Jer 24:9 I will deliver them to trouble into all the kingdoms of the earth, for their harm, to be a reproach and a byword, a taunt and a curse, in all places where I shall drive them.​

God foretold the nation of Israel would become a byword. The Jews have been taunted throughout all nations and have been driven throughout the world just as God said He would. This prophecy has been receiving fulfillment for the past 2500 years! Not once have the Jews been able to break it. Not once have the Gentile nations been able to exterminate the Jews to thwart the prophecy. Why did God prophesy this would happen to the Jew, but to no Gentile nation mentioned anywhere in Bible prophecy-unless God knew the history of the world in advance?

By comparison, let's take a look at what God said would happen to Egypt:

Eze 29:15-16 It shall be the lowliest of kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations anymore. 16 No longer shall it be the confidence of the house of Israel, but will remind them of their iniquity when they turned to follow them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD."​

Egypt since then has never again been a superpower. But even more interesting is Egypt's prophetic dichotomy with the fate of the Jews. Egypt was not to be scattered among the nations and they were not to become a byword. The fate of the Jews was entirely different from Egypt. But what God foretold has happened to both.

Correct me if I'm wrong but think Xchristian wanted examples of prophecies that came true from the NT/ Jesus?

 

[savagewind]

I wonder if Pegg or any other member will ever answer my question.

Moses said to judge the prophecy maker -namely jesus here-, how long do we have to wait before making judgement? ... people have died in the million guys, they disobeyed Moses!!!

Why would it matter in the Judgement if one prophesy Jesus foretold came true? It's about prophesies NOT coming true. You are asking if any prophesies have come true. What did Jesus foretell that has not come true, according to you xchristian?

 

[Pegg]

Why would it matter in the Judgement if one prophesy Jesus foretold came true? It's about prophesies NOT coming true. You are asking if any prophesies have come true. What did Jesus foretell that has not come true, according to you xchristian?

he's not interested in the prophecies that HAVE come true

he has decided that because not all of them have come true, then Jesus should be viewed as a false prophet.

But in that case, then every bible writer is a false prophet too because every book has unfulfilled prophecies in it.