jesus and prophecies .. strange! .. but true

[james2ko]

I don't really believe a word of all that.

1. Your faith beguiles you.

First: This was written after the Davidic kingdom was established, so it's a prediction in reverse!!

2. My sources say the book of Deuteronomy was written approx 1400 BC. Are we going to play the "your source is better than my source" game? For arguments sake, even if it was written after the Davidic kingdom, the Jews had millennia to reverse it and they couldn't. Why weren't they able to reverse what God predicted? Surely, no one wants to be the object of scorn and ridicule wherever they go..

Second: If you read history well, or at least listen to the CNN you will realise that Israel is now a state not a kingdom, the ruler is a priminister, elected by the people, not a descendant of king David as the bible would prefer to happen.

3. I'll let His grandad refute you:

Netanyahu Meets Hareidi Soldiers - Inside Israel - News - Israel National News

The Prime Minister's first name is also Benjamin. David was from the tribe of Benjamin. I have two pieces of evidence suggesting he is a descendant of David. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Same problem, read history well, this was written after the last Egyptian dynasty, when Egypt was weak enough to make backward predictions and still feel happy about it.

4. Egypt also had millennia to reverse it and they haven't. Why weren't they able to reverse it? Surely every country wants to be a superpower.

 

[james2ko]

Correct me if I'm wrong but think Xchristian wanted examples of prophecies that came true from the NT/ Jesus?

Based on this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3192275-post13.html

I was under the impression he later suggested "any" prophecy.

If Xchristian wants me to stick to the topic, I'm sure he will let me know.

 

[Xchristian]

2. My sources say the book of Deuteronomy was written approx 1400 BC.

that's enough for me.

if you please now just concentrate on what I have asked for, NT, jesus only

 

[savagewind]

I think the original disagreement here is about the wall. I looked up the wall briefly and saw that there is some debate about whether it is from the original temple or not. How do you know it was a real part of the temple? Might it have been built after?

 

[james2ko]

that's enough for me.

if you please now just concentrate on what I have asked for, NT, jesus only

Dont blame you for not wanting to continue

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

yep, and that one did come from brother Russell (JW's founder) He was the head of the group of Bible Students and he was responsible for what was published.

Back in the late 1800's, they expected the year 1914 to mark a significant turning point for Jerusalem, since the prophecy had said that ‘Jerusalem would be trodden down’ until the Gentile Times were fulfilled. When they saw 1914 drawing close and yet they had not died as humans and been ‘caught up in the clouds’ to meet the Lord—in harmony with earlier expectations—they earnestly hoped that their change might take place at the end of the Gentile Times.—1 Thess. 4:17.
As the years passed and they examined and reexamined the Scriptures, their faith in the prophecies remained strong, and they did not hold back from stating what they expected to occur.

But wrong expectations did not mean that they were acting as 'prophets'.... they simply didnt understand the scriptures correctly back then. As things panned out, they realised their mistakes and adjusted their thinking.

Was it believed by the JWs that this expectation was divinely inspired?

 

[Xchristian]

I think the original disagreement here is about the wall. I looked up the wall briefly and saw that there is some debate about whether it is from the original temple or not. How do you know it was a real part of the temple? Might it have been built after?

No dear, it's not, never was, and never will be.

My argument is from the scripture, we are talking all there was, all together.

Not one stone upon another.

 

[savagewind]

No dear, it's not, never was, and never will be.

My argument is from the scripture, we are talking all there was, all together.

Not one stone upon another.

Are you talking in code?

 

[Xchristian]

Was it believed by the JWs that this expectation was divinely inspired?

Even though the original argument of whether we should wait for jesus' predictions to occur, or if it is time judge him there and then, I would also like to hear a reply on this.

Was it divinely inspired? .. was there a holy ghost involved in the process?

 

[savagewind]

Even though the original argument of whether we should wait for jesus' predictions to occur, or if it is time judge him there and then, I would also like to hear a reply on this.

Was it divinely inspired? .. was there a holy ghost involved in the process?

There is a heap of stuff written about it. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be prophets. To be a prophet means to be "divinely inspired". A true prophet speaks the true words of God Yahweh. True words come true, don't they now? The Jehovah's Witness's talk about when the end would be was never inspired by Heaven. It was intellectually inspired. Many people believed the leader's claims that the leaders, who are called the faithful and discreet slave, were for the good of the people, so many people took their words about the end at face value. Why would they lie? After the forecast event did not happen it was published in the Watchtower that the fault lay with the way their words were interpreted. The leaders blamed their subjects for being over zealous.

 

[loverOfTruth]

hello all


I have been thinking in my xtian days of jesus as so many things at the same time, he's god incarnate, son of god, part of trinity, messenger of god, prophet, he's love, price of peace, king of kings .. etc ..

with time things fell down so rapidly.

jesus was never a king, he was a simple peasant jew who was executed according to the laws of his days ..

You're alright to think of his kingdom as a heavenly kingdom, but buy a 20 pounds ticket to France and you will see the sky, it's empty! perhaps for people who didn't have this chance, it was possible for them, but having seen the skies, there's no more to take in.
Now learn about what happens if you go up and up and that there's stratosphere and that he would freeze just going a few miles up, and you will be sure, this upheaval thing is an old man's trick, pretty much like what grandma said about grandad when he passed on, he went up there!

He is definitely not prince of peace, this man would put you in hell fire if you don't believe him, what's peaceful about that? what's peaceful about putting the majority of the creation in hell?

what' so good about having no chance and being born with a sin you never even heard of?

I thought, alright, he's a messenger.
Ok who's the sender? .. himself. What's the message? who knows..

That's fine, he's a prophet.
fine, what prophecy did he make and came true?
it's all in the future, nothing happened as of yet.

If anyone who knows of a 'prophecy' that came true, then by all means, let's see it!
(and I mean SEE it)

{the 'this generation' prophecy has not come true, and xtians have not even helped by giving illogical alternatives, you can skip that one}

Just curious...what do you think of the Islamic version of the story of Jesus(pbuh) (if you know the Islamic belief regarding Jesus(pbuh))?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

There is a heap of stuff written about it. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be prophets. To be a prophet means to be "divinely inspired". A true prophet speaks the true words of God Yahweh. True words come true, don't they now? The Jehovah's Witness's talk about when the end would be was never inspired by Heaven. It was intellectually inspired. Many people believed the leader's claims that the leaders, who are called the faithful and discreet slave, were for the good of the people, so many people took their words about the end at face value. Why would they lie? After the forecast event did not happen it was published in the Watchtower that the fault lay with the way their words were interpreted. The leaders blamed their subjects for being over zealous.

Cool, thanks for the info

 

[Xchristian]

There is a heap of stuff written about it. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be prophets. To be a prophet means to be "divinely inspired". A true prophet speaks the true words of God Yahweh. True words come true, don't they now? The Jehovah's Witness's talk about when the end would be was never inspired by Heaven. It was intellectually inspired. Many people believed the leader's claims that the leaders, who are called the faithful and discreet slave, were for the good of the people, so many people took their words about the end at face value. Why would they lie? After the forecast event did not happen it was published in the Watchtower that the fault lay with the way their words were interpreted. The leaders blamed their subjects for being over zealous.

I will change my signature to: "The inspired xChristian"

But still I can't know what to do about jesus with regards to the Moses issue.

Can I judge him? ... if not, why not?

if to wait, then how long before I give up?

 

[Xchristian]

Just curious...what do you think of the Islamic version of the story of Jesus(pbuh) (if you know the Islamic belief regarding Jesus(pbuh))?

Thanks, but I never considered it. And if I do I won't write about it till I am sure I know what I am doing.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Thanks, but I never considered it. And if I do I won't write about it till I am sure I know what I am doing.

The reason I asked is when I saw the following part in the OP :

I thought, alright, he's a messenger.
Ok who's the sender? .. himself. What's the message? who knows..

Why would it be 'himself' ? May be you put that because Christians believe Jesus is God ?

Jesus(pbuh) according to Islam is no different than any other messengers of God (such as Abraham, Moses, Muhammad etc.) as far as the mission/purpose (call people to worshiping the One and Only God) goes. However, he was given different qualities than other messengers/prophets of God. Note that we use prophet/messenger almost interchangeably without necessarily the need of foretelling of prophecies.

Muslims also believe that He was born of Virgin Mary but that is by the miracle of God (just like Adam was born without any parents). We also believe in the miracles Jesus(pbuh) performed with the power granted to him by God. One major difference according to our belief is that we do not believe that Jesus(pbuh) was crucified or got killed. Finally, we believe that God raised him up and that he will be coming again before the end of the world.

Essentially, God in the Qur'an says that Jesus(pbuh) is not the son of the God or God. He and his mother were human like any other except that they are closer to God (messenger of God) and honored in this world and the hereafter.
"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;" (Al Qur'an 3:45)

We believe that the Bible got corrupted by the writing of people... so over time the messages changed and Jesus(pbuh) became divine which he himself didn't preach.

I would ask you to listen to the following lecture by Dr. Jerald F. Dirks that shows even early christians had quite a different take on the Crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh). Dr. Dirks has a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.
[youtube]2m4KW-dysKk[/youtube]
From Jesus to Muhammad: A History of Early Christianity - YouTube

You can also read more on Jesus(pbuh) in Islam here

Also, I would like to add regarding one prophecy of Jesus(pbuh) that we Muslims believe came true.

In John 16, Jesus(pbuh) states that “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you."(12-14)

Points to note here are [1]:

a)The Spirit of truth here can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh) himself and then throughout his ministry.

b)Jesus(pbuh) is stating that the Spirit of Truth will tell much more new things about God and guidance and he will not speak on his own rather what he hears from God. Did the holy ghost in the last 2000 years after Jesus(pbuh) left teach anything new or give any new information ? No, only Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did.

c) The Spirit of Truth will glorify Jesus(pbuh). Once again as stated in the Holy Qur'an, Jesus(pbuh) was glorified : "Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;" (Al Qur'an 3:45)

[1]What Did Jesus Really Say ? - A "Paraclete" like Jesus

 

[Xchristian]

This thread is about jesus NT and prophecies ONLY

 

[Pegg]

Was it believed by the JWs that this expectation was divinely inspired?

at the time it may have been viewed like that by the bible students, im not exactly sure. The writers of the WT were themselves bible students who were searching the scriptures for answers.... they were correct (and we still believe this) that 1914 was when Christ began to rule as King in heaven. This understanding comes from the bibles own chronology and it still holds true today.

we could say that God gave them understanding of the marked year, but it came through their diligent study of the bible...not through some direct revelation. And this is why they were not totally correct on the events of 1914....the truth is that prophecy can only be 'fully' understood AFTER it has occured. This is why they readjusted their understanding afterwards.

 

[loverOfTruth]

This thread is about jesus NT and prophecies ONLY

Sorry I added the prophecy later (last part in my previous post). That's why I brought up Islam because we believe Jesus(pbuh) prophesied about the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in NT.

 

[savagewind]

I will change my signature to: "The inspired xChristian"

But still I can't know what to do about jesus with regards to the Moses issue.

Can I judge him? ... if not, why not?

if to wait, then how long before I give up?

Interesting. Can you judge him? I think a dead man can not be judged.

 

[Pegg]

I will change my signature to: "The inspired xChristian"

But still I can't know what to do about jesus with regards to the Moses issue.

Can I judge him? ... if not, why not?

if to wait, then how long before I give up?

why use Moses writings at all considering some of his prophecies have not come true?

It was Moses who wrote that by means of 'Abrahams seed, all the nations on earth would be blessed" Obvisouly that is not the case today....so why use Moses words as a reason to judge anybody????