Jesus Failed Right?

[metis]

I believe angels are not part of God.

If they are not "part of God" then they are deities in and of themselves as they perform miracles.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Jesus wanted followers. He had lots of people listening to him and following him. He had 12 initial followers but they were not the only ones. Sadly, The Way didn't last long until people took it and used it for power and glory for themselves. Jesus did what he was supposed to but humans failed by changing the focus to something Jesus was not about.

 

[Ebionite]

I believe the JW's are correct on this one. The plurality is that of a diverse oneness not a greater number. Since god is omnipresent His oneness is quite diverse.

In Exodus 20 Moses was a member of Elohim, and two is greater than one.

YHWH is not omnipresent:

And Cain went out from the presence of YHWH, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Genesis 4:16

 

[Muffled]

I thought God was part of everything ? .. Is your God not the "God of Everything" perhaps a different God from that one ?

I believe God created everything which precludes Him from being everything.

 

[Muffled]

In Exodus 20 Moses was a member of Elohim, and two is greater than one.

YHWH is not omnipresent:

And Cain went out from the presence of YHWH, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Genesis 4:16

I believe I see nothing in that chapter that says that.

I believe a presence in one place does not preclude His presence in all places.

 

[Sargonski]

I believe God created everything which precludes Him from being everything.

No it doesn't .. Test score = Zero .. a God that created everything .. by definition has to be everything .. or at least connected to everything in some way .. .. never mind being precluded from being part of everything .. or the sum total of everything .. IS .. God ..

So believe that God created everything if you wish ... is not what the Bible says .. but never the less .. you can believe what ever you like about God.but what is True is that God creating everything does not preclude God from being part of Everything and/or Everything .. this s a falsehood on your part ... and we should not base our beliefs on falsehood .. but on the True word and rock of the annointed one of God. ..

 

[Sargonski]

I believe I see nothing in that chapter that says that.

I believe a presence in one place does not preclude His presence in all places.

The God of "Everything" is the God of Nothing .. Just saying .. you are in a circular fallacy loop.. on the opposite end of the Secular Atheist who will also not give a rational definition of Godly power.

Would you care to proffer one ? .. define what it is you mean by God .. other than the "God is everyting cop-out nonsense. I don't want the upper limit of God-hood .. but the lower limit. of what it would take to convince you that some entity was a God.. what ability would this entity need .. such as the ability to bring fire from the sky through force of will .. is this not a God like Power ? and if not what level of power is required = a definable quantity .. something other than "Unlimited Power" the moronic undefined definition.

Quantify what it would take for an entity to prove to you that it was a God. Does not have to be the great all powerfull nonsense God of nothing .. one of the lesser Gods.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If they are not "part of God" then they are deities in and of themselves as they perform miracles.

So if the criteria for being a deity is performing miracles, what does that make of Elijah, who is said to have performed many miracles, such as raising the widow's son from the dead?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is about Yahweh / Jehovah, his worship; not the Messiah.

“In the final part of the days (vs.2)”, worshippers of Jehovah have ‘beaten their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning shears. Nation has not lifted up sword against nation, Nor have they learned war anymore.’

Jehovah’s worshippers are united by His spirit, and have a ‘loving, peaceful’ global brotherhood.

You are mistaken. Isaiah 2:4 along with Micah 4:3 are probably THE most important messianic prophecies. Here is Isaiah:
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Judging nations is one thing, and judging between the nations is quite another. It implies there is some kind of dispute between two or more countries that needs to be resolved. God doesn't do that.

It is even more clear in Micah 4:3
He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

God doesn't settle disputes. It take a human mediator to do that. Further, God's judgment is at the end of time, when countries will no longer exist.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You are mistaken. Isaiah 2:4 along with Micah 4:3 are probably THE most important messianic prophecies. Here is Isaiah:
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Judging nations is one thing, and judging between the nations is quite another. It implies there is some kind of dispute between two or more countries that needs to be resolved. God doesn't do that.

It is even more clear in Micah 4:3
He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

God doesn't settle disputes. It take a human mediator to do that. Further, God's judgment is at the end of time, when countries will no longer exist.

I’m sorry, but you have taken Micah 4 out of context.

It goes on to say (JPS Tnankh 1917)
:

3”And He shall judge between many peoples,
And shall decide concerning mighty nations afar off;
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruninghooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war any more.
4But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree;
And none shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken.


5For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god,
But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.”

You see? This is while other gods are still being worshipped.

Jehovah’s worshippers, “in the final days” which is occurring now, are fulfilling this prophecy as we speak.

And the “He” there, is referencing Yahweh / Jehovah, the God of Israel… not the Messiah.

Have a good day.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

3”And He shall judge between many peoples,
And shall decide concerning mighty nations afar off;
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruninghooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war any more.
4But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree;
And none shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken.


5For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god,
But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.”

Verses 3 and 4 refer to the Messiah, not God.

I'm not sure what possible relevance verse 5 has to the argument. Even you have made it into a separate paragraph. It is simply saying that non-Jews may have their own gods, but Jews have our one God, the LORD.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Verses 3 and 4 refer to the Messiah, not God.

Where do you get that at? Vs.2, immediately preceding, says YHWH.
In Tanakh…
2”And many nations shall go and say:
‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD (YHWH), And to the house of the God of Jacob;
And He will teach us of His ways,
And we will walk in His paths’;
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD (YHWH) from Jerusalem.
3And He shall judge between many peoples,….”

That isn’t the Messiah.

 

[metis]

So if the criteria for being a deity is performing miracles, what does that make of Elijah, who is said to have performed many miracles, such as raising the widow's son from the dead?

I don't assume anyone or anything can perform miracles.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where do you get that at? Vs.2, immediately preceding, says YHWH.
In Tanakh…
2”And many nations shall go and say:
‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD (YHWH), And to the house of the God of Jacob;
And He will teach us of His ways,
And we will walk in His paths’;
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD (YHWH) from Jerusalem.
3And He shall judge between many peoples,….”

That isn’t the Messiah.

The fact that the word YHWH is used as an adjective to augment the mountain and the house, in no way implies the "he" in the next verse is YHWH. For example, I might say, "We are going to my aunt's house. My cousin is going to BBQ." Clearly the reference to the aunt in no way implies she is the same person as the cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The fact that the word YHWH is used as an adjective to augment the mountain and the house, in no way implies the "he" in the next verse is YHWH. For example, I might say, "We are going to my aunt's house. My cousin is going to BBQ." Clearly the reference to the aunt in no way implies she is the same person as the cousin.

Are you really thinking this through?

You said:
‘For example, I might say, "We are going to my aunt's house. My cousin is going to BBQ." ‘

Yes, because you said “cousin”; “my cousin” is specific.

But if you say it (similar to the account):
"We are going to my aunt's house. She is going to BBQ”,

…then obviously, she, the one getting BBQ, is your aunt.

Same with Micah 4. (And Isaiah 2, for that matter.)

Nowhere does the passage say “Messiah”

Once again, it says (Tanakh):
“2And many nations shall go and say:
‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, And to the house of the God of Jacob;
And He will teach us of His ways,
And we will walk in His paths’;
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3And He shall judge between many peoples,…”

Messiah is not even implied in those verses.

And btw, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, we are Christian, ie., we follow Christ’s example; so we worship the God of Israel, the One he worshipped (John 4:23; John 20:17) exclusively, as the Law stated. - Exodus 20:2-6.

So as Micah’s and Isaiah’s prophecies indicate, people “from all nations” will worship “the God of Jacob” “in the end of days,” symbolically “beating their swords into plowshares” by not ‘warring anymore’.

JW’s are worldwide, from all nations, and we do not war or support war against others.

In our opinion, we are fulfilling these verses today, because we are in the Last Days.

The Last Days began in 1914… I can supply secular evidence that supports this conclusion, if you’re interested.

Good night.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are you really thinking this through?

You said:
‘For example, I might say, "We are going to my aunt's house. My cousin is going to BBQ." ‘

Yes, because you said “cousin”; “my cousin” is specific.

You will never find even one occasion in the Tanakh where the messiah named, or referred to in any other way besides "he," some metaphor, or "the messiah" twice in Daniel For example:

Micah 4:3 And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus Failed Right?

No, Yeshua-the truthful Israelite Messiah was one of the most successful messengers/prophets of One G-d, please, right?

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus Failed Right?

No, Yeshua-the truthful Israelite Messiah was one of the most successful messengers/prophets of One G-d, please, right?

Regards

Depends on what you mean by "successful."

Is Christianity currently the religion with the most adherents in the world? Yes.

Is Christianity derived from the teachings of Jesus? No. Most of the beliefs of Christianity come from Paul, not Jesus, which would mean that Paul gets the credit for the large number of believers.

Did Jesus do or say things that made the lives of people on this earth easier, less painful, longer lived, etc? No.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The very fact that we are now talking about Jesus, using the Internet, 2000 years later, is evidence of his eternal success.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The very fact that we are now talking about Jesus, using the Internet, 2000 years later, is evidence of his eternal success.

No, that is fallacious reasoning. Is the fact that we discuss Muhammad more than 1400 years later evidence of his eternal success? Is the fact that Krishna is discussed more than 5100 years later evidence he was an eternal success?