• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Yahcubs777

Active Member
I don't know....Hebrews uses the specific word, "faith" not revelation. If I were still a Christian I'd say your philosophy sounds pretty dicey.

Saul Paul defined all the preachers that preached faith, that claim they were called out of Sin, to preach the Gospel, and they were taught by GOD directly. Saul Paul is not a Prophet. His writings are the scrolls he stole from the Jews but with his own twist on them. Meaning, he gave his own interpretations of what was written and called them revelations. You can see in his writings, that they do not agree with the writings of Moses, or the Prophets

They wrote in the bible, that Enoch pleased GOD, and was translated into heaven. Now, they said it was faith which is why he was translated. Translated is not accurate. Translated is what happens when a person is detatched from their physical body. You cannot enter into heaven as a ghost. Heaven is not a ghost world, that is why there must be the resurrection for those that died. You must have Spirit, Soul and Body in tact to enter into heaven. So he transfigured, he wasn't translated.

Then it is written that Elijah journeyed from gilgal to bethel, bethel to jericho, and jericho to jordan, and then he crossed Jordan (He parted the waters by the way as Moses parted the red sea) and was taken into heaven by a chariot of fire, and separated from Elisha by a whirlwind. Was that faith as well? What of Elisha, who asked for a double portion of Elijah's Spirit? Why was he not taken as well? There is a reason.

Revelations is the Word of GOD that when they come, they come as a light that shines and lights up a room, or community, or state, or nation, or the entire globe. And that is what makes it possible to see things as they are. If you walked through a corridor in the dark, and I asked you to tell me whats in the corridor, you wouldn't be able tell me. But if that corridor was lighted, you would be able to tell me exactly what is there, and even where it is located, and the best path for you to take.

Revelations is that kind when it comes it throws light on something that was in the dark. So for example, it is written:

1 Cor 12:3
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”

But it is also revealed (which was a revelation Jesus His Pre-Eminence gave to us) that:

Matthew 8
28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine

And in Matthew 24, Jesus His Pre-Eminence said:
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So tell me, how do we link what saul paul said with what happened and what Jesus His Pre-Eminence said?

Those that ran with faith, are the same people that have believed a message of unrighteousness, they celebrated the death of their saviour, and then followed the man that persecuted the church he sponsored the death of stephen. Where is the justice, in him now being chosen to lead the church? What about Apostle Peter who is the Angel of that Church Age?

Saul paul was never called, Chosen or sent to preach the Gospel. His Writings are his own interpretations of what was written in the scrolls and parchments he stole from the Apostles. He was a pharisee, and an undercover agent for the enemies of the Mankind Race, and he persecuted the church, hijacked the church, stole the scrolls and preached a counterfeit Christ just as the Romans did.. And this is why Apostle Peter was martyred, because he allowed this to happen. Just as he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed. And this is the revelation behind this saying:

John 21
18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Then a narrator gave his own interpretation of this and said:
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


This doesnt agree with the verse: It is the will of GOD that none should perish. Death does not glorify GOD. Nothing can Glorify GOD, HE is the one to Glorify. What Jesus His Pre-Eminence revealed here is that the church will be hijacked.

Faith is what has exposed them. They don't know what it is. Apostle James said: Faith without works is dead, and that has confused them to no end, that they are still asking, is it by works or not? Because they haven't understood how the Word of GOD is. Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence said: If ye have faith, even as a mustard seed, ye will say to this mountain, be thou removed, and it shall be removed. Another Parable. So who has faith that they can move mountains? What is that mountain spoken of?

Rather, what Faith is, is Revelations about the GOD, about the Son of GOD, Adam, about the Son of Man, Elijah, about the 12 Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel: Samson, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, David, Jephter, Zerubbabel, Joshua, Gideon, samuel, Daniel, and their works prove them. These are the elders referred to in that speech: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. About HIS plan of salvation...

Revelations about heaven, the citizens of Heaven, their anatomies, their heavens worlds, their way of life, the lifestyle of Man in heaven, the anatomy of the transfigured body, the system of time in Heaven and much more. These are Revelations about the kingdom.

So they will continue to think its just belief, but if they understood revelations, they would have seen what it means to believe ON HIM. Not in HIM.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”

I believe with re-incarnation that could well happen in the future. He didn't actually say He would be coming in that lifetime.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I believe with re-incarnation that could well happen in the future. He didn't actually say He would be coming in that lifetime.
I don't know--there are so many different opinions on what exactly Jesus was saying. I think all these opinions resulted from him being a no-show during the first 100 years when everyone was looking for him. It's expected that people who believed he would return would start to invent all sorts of crazy excuses for why he never returned, the most common being he did return but not in the way we expected.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
No, he didn't. He brought curse after curse upon them. Why doesn't he do that today? Why isn't there some modern day prophet up on a hilltop named Bevis the Baptist screaming, "Woe unto you, people of America--sinners and hypocrites! Repent or the Lord will visit fire and brimstone on you yet 30 days from now. The clock is ticking."

He gave them the choice to do what they wanted to do.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I don't know--there are so many different opinions on what exactly Jesus was saying. I think all these opinions resulted from him being a no-show during the first 100 years when everyone was looking for him. It's expected that people who believed he would return would start to invent all sorts of crazy excuses for why he never returned, the most common being he did return but not in the way we expected.

I think the real answer is that Jesus did not say He would return in the life of those who were with Him.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe with re-incarnation that could well happen in the future. He didn't actually say He would be coming in that lifetime.

True, He didn't say He would come in that lifetime. Reincarnation is not needed to answer a misreading of that Jesus said.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I think the real answer is that Jesus did not say He would return in the life of those who were with Him.
I can't recall, Brian. Do you believe Jesus will return bodily to earth at some future time. Or do you, like cOLTER believe he already returned in the 1st century?
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I think this pic does a perfect job of making the point of this thread

reinterpreting-bible-verses.jpg
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I for one continue to believe that Bible is inerrant....

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 4:26.
So please....
You quoted me out of context. I never said that Jesus was not a Messiah.
I said: “Jesus never claimed to be that Messiah as per the Tanakh that Jews have long awaited.”

Jesus was a Messiah, but Jesus was never slated to be the Messiah of the latter days since Jesus completed His mission on earth and left this world and SAID He would be NO MORE in this world.

You cannot make your beliefs – that Jesus is going to return – work using the “inerrant” Bible.
Trailblazer said: nor did Jesus ever say He was planning to come back to earth and finish what was not finished.

see Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

When you get whipped, Trailblazer, are you in the mood to go into great detail concerning your future plans, or do you rather answer questions in a short and concise manner?
So did Jesus when he said "it is finished!"
That’s grasping at straws if I have ever seen it. :rolleyes:
My long-windedness had nothing to do with whether Jesus said he was coming back so it is a red herring.

The problem is that you have NOT ONE VERSE in the entire New Testament wherein Jesus says He is coming back to this world; rather, we see the exact opposite. Obviously, the mission of Jesus was FINISHED on this earth, and that is why Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

NO MORE means NO MORE. You cannot get around that if you believe the Bible is inerrant.

Definitions from Oxford Languages

Give it up for lost, the mission of Jesus was finished when He died on the cross, PERIOD, and Jesus says nothing about any further mission He will have in the future. That is a false Christian belief, based upon nothing that is actually in the New Testament.

Jesus returning for a second mission is NOT in the New Testament, and you cannot make it be there when it is not there. This is all about wanting Jesus to return and I have known that for eight years, ever since I started posting to Christians. It is not about what the Bible actually SAYS; it is about what Christians WANT to believe. But guess what? God is not known for doing what people want, God does only what He chooses to do, period, and that is why all the Bible prophecies have been fulfilled and still no Jesus.
What he had to do during this life span 2000 years ago was fulfilled at that point.
That’s right, it was fulfilled at that point, and there is NO REASON to believe that there will be any other point in the future wherein Jesus will return and do anything else since it is not in the New Testament.
Your Bible verse indicates that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit as opposed to a human being.
So it cannot be a human being, according to the Bible.

The Holy Spirit can join a person though, as he did at Pentecost.
That's right, the Holy Spirit can join a person, as it did when Baha’u’llah received the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit prison: A revelation from God

Jesus is not the only Manifestation of God who ever lived. There have been many others, including the following: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh.

You want to make Jesus the Only Way for all time, but Jesus was not the Only Way to God for all time. Jesus was the Way to God during His Dispensation but that Dispensation ENDED the next Messenger of God appeared on earth.
You're citing Acts 2:17-21. But this passage is just an explanation given by Peter about what just happened there at Pentecost. That's all.
When you posted this verse, it wasn't clear that Peter spoke in these verses.
The Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), but it was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was not spoken by Peter, it was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies and all the other prophecies for the return of Christ in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Perhaps this is what you WANT to believe...?
Conversely, perhaps this is what you do not WANT to believe because it would call your other beliefs into question.
Obviously the Holy Spirit joined the person of Jesus, as otherwise Jesus would not have been able to release the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

Jesus was the Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit needs a vehicle by which it travels from by the Father. It does not just float around in mid-air.
 
Last edited:

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
You quoted me out of context. I never said that Jesus was not a Messiah.
actually, I didn't quote you out of context. I never quoted you saying that Jesus was not a Messiah, according to you, here's is the quote that I quoted:
Jesus never claimed to be that Messiah
bolded mine.
And that's the same exact thing you're saying in this current post here.

And I understand you that you say he was "some" Massiah but not the one as per the Tanakh.
That's why I wrote this:
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


John 4:26.
So please....

see here LINK.
You cannot make your beliefs – that Jesus is going to return – work using the “inerrant” Bible.
yes I can, as I see it. And I did in #303, did you forget? I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:23. We had that.
Bible is inerrant not, "inerrant". This is at least my opinion.
Jesus returning for a second mission is NOT in the New Testament, and you cannot make it be there when it is not there. This is all about wanting Jesus to return
see above
The problem is that you have NOT ONE VERSE in the entire New Testament wherein Jesus says He is coming back to this world;
see above
the mission of Jesus was finished when He died on the cross, PERIOD, and Jesus says nothing about any further mission He will have in the future.
see above
and there is NO REASON to believe that there will be any other point in the future wherein Jesus will return
see above (you did reiterate yourself quite a few times by now)
NO MORE means NO MORE.
He showed up in the world.
Now he is no more in the word. NO MORE, as you say. And it does mean NO MORE. Here we agree. He is not there in the world now like he used to be 2000 years ago.
Later, he will come back, see above.
Acts 2:17-21 was not spoken by Peter, it was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.
Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by Peter. Peter spoke. Peter quoted Joel to explain what just happened at that day (Pentecost).
Peter spoke and quoted someone. Joel.
It's as simple as that.
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
earthquakes happen all the time. So do Dark Days. And the kind of "falling stars" you're referring to happen each year: Meteor shower





I don't think I was grasping at straws in my previous post. I think I did not resort to a red herring, as you say.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Conversely, perhaps this is what you do not WANT to believe because it would call your other beliefs into question.
Obviously the Holy Spirit joined the person of Jesus, as otherwise Jesus would not have been able to release the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

Jesus was the Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit needs a vehicle by which it travels from by the Father. It does not just float around in mid-air.

upload_2021-3-16_16-8-43.png
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: You cannot make your beliefs – that Jesus is going to return – work using the “inerrant” Bible.

yes I can, as I see it. And I did in #303, did you forget? I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:23. We had that.
1 Corinthians 15:22-26 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

“Christ's at his coming” has nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus. Coming means coming, the only coming which was when Jesus came. Jesus is not coming back to earth because Jesus has no more work to do; He said so (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,

This is not about Jesus bringing the kingdom of God to earth because Jesus said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Later, he will come back, see above.
Why would Jesus come back to the world, when He said that the world would see Him NO MORE and He was NO MORE in the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

no more
phrase of more
  1. nothing further.
    "there was no more to be said about it"
  2. no further.
    "you must have some soup, but no more wine"
  3. exist no longer.
    "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
  4. never again.
    "mention his name no more to me"
  5. neither.
    "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
Translate no more to
Definitions from Oxford Languages
Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by Peter. Peter spoke. Peter quoted Joel to explain what just happened at that day (Pentecost).
Peter spoke and quoted someone. Joel.
It's as simple as that.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This refers to the last days, not to the days of Pentecost. It is as simple as that.

We know that Acts 2:17-21 refers to the last days since those prophecies are the SAME prophecies that Jesus gave for the return of Christ; that is how we know that Acts 2:17-21 refers to the last days when Christ would return, not to the day of Pentecost.

Matthew 24:29–30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

We see the same prophecies in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
“Christ's at his coming” has nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus.
but oh yes it has.
For 1 Corinthians 15:23 refers to the future, as the following verse indicates:
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority
it refers to the future, you see?

This refers to the last days, not to the days of Pentecost. It is as simple as that.

We know that Acts 2:17-21 refers to the last days since those prophecies [...]
Peter referred to Pentecost as being part of the last days Joel was speaking of, as I see it: he simply applied Joel's prophecy to what just happened at Pentecost.
That's what the text plainly states, in my opinion.

At this point our debate is going round in circles.
Even if you reply to reiterate yourself again: I won't. I have other things to do.
And if I don't reply, this does not mean I agree with you.

Also, I stay with my opinion, that "no more in the world" means no more when you used to be there like Jesus was.
This does not preclude any future comings.
It's like saying: I don't play the violin no more.
That does not preclude me picking up the instrument any time in the future though.
It's a simplified manner of saying that I quit playing the violin,
it's as simple as that.

Here again: even if you reply to reiterate yourself any further... I won't.
This does not mean that I agree with you, though.
I stay with my opinion, but want to avoid going round in circles with you here.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
it refers to the future, you see?
But it is not about Jesus, the same man, because Jesus said He was not coming back to this world and Jesus never said He was going to bring the kingdom of God to earth (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 18:36, John 18:37)

1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


Christ's at his coming refers to the second coming of Christ, the coming of Baha’u’llah who will deliver up the kingdom of God, as I explained in this post: #171 Trailblazer
Also, I stay with my opinion, that "no more in the world" means no more when you used to be there like Jesus was.
This does not preclude any future comings.
It's like saying: I don't play the violin no more.
That does not preclude me picking up the instrument any time in the future though.
It's a simplified manner of saying that I quit playing the violin,
it's as simple as that.
Dream on. No more in the world means no more on the world. Christians will do anything in order to try to maintain the belief that Jesus is coming back to earth, but the Bible is not on their side because nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus promise to return, and trying to grab things Paul said and apply them to Jesus doesn’t prove anything.

I am happy ending this particular conversation.
You have your beliefs and I have mine. :)
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
I am happy ending this particular conversation.
You have your beliefs and I have mine. :)
yes the discussion has ended. All is said. I maintain my points.

Let me address two points concerning the manner in which the discussion took place..
Dream on.
this is not very polite, in my view. I don't dream when I post.
Christians will do anything in order to try to maintain the belief that [...],
this is ad hominem, I think.
Instead of debating the issue, you are debating the motives of the person.
Also, it's a generalizing remark about Christians.
 
Top